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Thread: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

  1. #46

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    The point being God did choose Levi over the other tribes. He even chose them over all the firstborn of Israel. Well this is your opinion, I wouldn't speak for God as you have done without providing some scripture to back it up. I see it differently, the scriptures declare it, when God makes a claim on something I take it to be a real claim. Some things are just facts you don't spiritualize them as you tend to do. Israel was all aware of God choosing the tribe of Levi as being his, they didn't have a problem with it that you seem to have. They just accepted it and moved on doing as instructed.
    Colossians 2.20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

    Satanic spirits invest themselves in rules controlled by the independent flesh of men. We can, after all, do by our flesh whatever we want. We can give to the poor. Or we can accumulate wealth for ourselves. Our flesh, when in control, is what pleases evil spirits, because they want to live autonomous lives, free from the constraints of an overlord in heaven.

    All that was in the Law was governed by carnal rules, washings, sacrificial offerings, diets, etc. None of it had any value, in terms of removing completely the problem of human sin, the problem of human independence. We could only be justified outside of our own independent works.

    Evil spirits could work through such rules, since they are controlled by independent human flesh. Only when things were done in conjunction with God were these things able to achieve satisfaction with God.
    But it was never enough to dispose of sin entirely. The sin nature continued in the human flesh. What God asked from Israel under the Law was no better than gnostics who use either libertine or ascetic rules to prove themselves good. Only with obedience from the heart do rules that God has implemented obtain favor with God. But it is never enough to remove the guilt of sin entirely.

    And so, Paul argues that God has now removed to a system that doesn't rely on carnal rules at all. We cannot rely on rules controlled by human flesh. We have to resort, spiritually, to works that someone else did, the works *Christ* did!

    When we say our blood is special we are resorting back to ourselves and to our corrupted flesh. It has zero value! The only value is in living a spiritual life in compliance with God's rules that directs us towards Christ's works. Our own blood type has zero value.

  2. #47
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    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    You don't get it, you that say that the priesthood lineage is of no significance, if someone can't prove their lineage that goes back to one of the sons of Aaron they are excluded from serving as a kohen (priest) in the new temple. That's where the important lie.

    I disdain your over spiritualization of Christ being our High Priest so forget about all this pedigree business.

  3. #48

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by undertheblood View Post
    You don't get it, you that say that the priesthood lineage is of no significance, if someone can't prove their lineage that goes back to one of the sons of Aaron they are excluded from serving as a kohen (priest) in the new temple. That's where the important lie.

    I disdain your over spiritualization of Christ being our High Priest so forget about all this pedigree business.
    Seeing Christ as the spiritual fulfillment of the OT priesthood is *not* an "over spiritualization!" That is in fact what the priesthood was meant to be--a picture of a heavenly priest--Jesus.

    I haven't said that tracing lineage is unimportant in the Law. I'm saying that it has zero to do with divine partiality. If so, then it is unimportant to trace to an OT priesthood that has now been fulfilled in Jesus.

  4. #49
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    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Seeing Christ as the spiritual fulfillment of the OT priesthood is *not* an "over spiritualization!" That is in fact what the priesthood was meant to be--a picture of a heavenly priest--Jesus.

    I haven't said that tracing lineage is unimportant in the Law. I'm saying that it has zero to do with divine partiality. If so, then it is unimportant to trace to an OT priesthood that has now been fulfilled in Jesus.
    Yes, yes, I agree. I, for one, am not trying to restablish Judaism or the old covenant, the mosaic Covenant is obsolete, indeed there was an exchange of the priesthood from Aaronic to the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ.

    I am coming from the thought the Third Temple and temple service would set some prophecies in motion and for that I joy in the building of the temple and temple service.

  5. #50

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Colossians 2.20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

    Satanic spirits invest themselves in rules controlled by the independent flesh of men. We can, after all, do by our flesh whatever we want. We can give to the poor. Or we can accumulate wealth for ourselves. Our flesh, when in control, is what pleases evil spirits, because they want to live autonomous lives, free from the constraints of an overlord in heaven.

    All that was in the Law was governed by carnal rules, washings, sacrificial offerings, diets, etc. None of it had any value, in terms of removing completely the problem of human sin, the problem of human independence. We could only be justified outside of our own independent works.

    Evil spirits could work through such rules, since they are controlled by independent human flesh. Only when things were done in conjunction with God were these things able to achieve satisfaction with God.
    But it was never enough to dispose of sin entirely. The sin nature continued in the human flesh. What God asked from Israel under the Law was no better than gnostics who use either libertine or ascetic rules to prove themselves good. Only with obedience from the heart do rules that God has implemented obtain favor with God. But it is never enough to remove the guilt of sin entirely.

    And so, Paul argues that God has now removed to a system that doesn't rely on carnal rules at all. We cannot rely on rules controlled by human flesh. We have to resort, spiritually, to works that someone else did, the works *Christ* did!

    When we say our blood is special we are resorting back to ourselves and to our corrupted flesh. It has zero value! The only value is in living a spiritual life in compliance with God's rules that directs us towards Christ's works. Our own blood type has zero value.
    Nobody is arguing what Christ did for us, nobody. Satin can enter into anything, even where you don't accept the known facts of the OT. You seem fixated on Satin. I see it more as undertheblood, in being parts of prophecy. We have been given authority over Satin through Christ, not to worry.

    Jesus did not come to change what God had already promised in the OT. He came to fulfill and to increase to all who believe in Him. The OT scriptures re the tribe of Levi are just as true today. If God said He is their inheritance then I personally believe it for all those that are Jews and of the tribe of Levi. I don't see God changing his mind, He said it, I believe it. I can still say that today, being a believer in Jesus and not personally being a Levite, yet God's word it still true today. Makes me wonder how you even believe in prophecies of the Bible yet to be fulfilled.

  6. #51

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by undertheblood View Post
    Yes, yes, I agree. I, for one, am not trying to restablish Judaism or the old covenant, the mosaic Covenant is obsolete, indeed there was an exchange of the priesthood from Aaronic to the Melchizedek priesthood of Christ.

    I am coming from the thought the Third Temple and temple service would set some prophecies in motion and for that I joy in the building of the temple and temple service.
    Thanks for the clarification. That's a legitimate opinion. I've been dealing recently with those who want to reestablish the validity of the Law, or rather, who say that the Law of Moses never really went away. That is *not* a legitimate Christian position, in terms of orthodoxy, even though it is legitimately a "Christian" position. Some Christians do believe that Christianity is some form of the "Law of Moses."

    However, historically Christian orthodoxy has determined that Judaizers are really heretics, with respect to Scriptural doctrines. I can discuss that, but it is clearly outside the pale of conservative Christian beliefs.

    Biblical Prophecy really goes beyond this OT/NT tension. It has to do with the revival of external practices that are part of Jewish culture. And I have much less problem with that. Thanks again!

  7. #52

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Nobody is arguing what Christ did for us, nobody. Satin can enter into anything, even where you don't accept the known facts of the OT. You seem fixated on Satin. I see it more as undertheblood, in being parts of prophecy. We have been given authority over Satin through Christ, not to worry.
    I'm not fixated on Satan. I'm pointing out the illegitimacy of anything that focuses on *us* as human beings, because our flesh has been contaminated with sin. By our own free will we can act outside the scope of God's will. Therefore, human "works" counts for nothing, and can be used by devils for "uninspired" purposes.


    If we focus on *who we are,* even if the Law points out the importance of priests and priestly lines, we are centering on human works, which can be manipulated by Satan to pursue self-justification. Everything properly done by "human works" under the Law obtained legitimacy not because of its own independent worth, but rather, on the assumption that mercy and virtue comes from a partnership between God and ourselves. The priests had no value apart from the fact God called them, and God sanctioned what they did.


    The NT Covenant took this a step farther by declaring that all human works are beyond redemption apart from abandonment of the OT system altogether, together with its priesthood and human works. All human works now had to be directed to Christ alone, who brings a whole new priestly system.


    And so my argument is that we can't draw any lessons from the priestly line unless it is referred to Christ as the new priesthood. And in him there is neither concern about the Levites nor any human distinction among the nations and races. The only concern is being in Christ, whatever nation or race we may be. Human works and human ancestry is thus not abandoned. But it is redirected in a new unity that does not allow for previous priestly or tribal distinctions under the Law.


    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd
    Jesus did not come to change what God had already promised in the OT. He came to fulfill and to increase to all who believe in Him. The OT scriptures re the tribe of Levi are just as true today. If God said He is their inheritance then I personally believe it for all those that are Jews and of the tribe of Levi. I don't see God changing his mind, He said it, I believe it. I can still say that today, being a believer in Jesus and not personally being a Levite, yet God's word it still true today. Makes me wonder how you even believe in prophecies of the Bible yet to be fulfilled.
    The fulfillment of the Law in Christianity is *not* the continuation of the Law! The Law was designed to show its own inadequacy, and thus the necessity for Christian fulfillment. No matter what Israel did under the Law, they were still stained with the sin nature, and this would ultimately contaminate the whole nation, causing it to fall.

    And so, the Law, while maintaining a respectable system of national righteousness, could neither remove the stain of human guilt, nor preserve national Israel indefinitely. Israel's righteousness had to progress into *Christian righteousness.* And this removed the tribal distinction of the Levites, as well as the entire priestly distinction under the Law. Nations maintain their distinction under the New Covenant, but the Law and its distinctions do not!

    The only priestly distinction that matters now is Christ himself. And all nations obtain their spirituality and unity through him. We may debate about what will exist in the future as far as Bible Prophecy. But we may *not* debate the fact Christian orthodoxy dismisses the Law as *old* covenant! There is no longer any need for a levitical or priestly class. There may indeed be a national Israel. But the tribes have passed away, along with the Law of Moses. It is pure vanity to indulge in these kinds of genealogies.

    Titus 3.9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
    Last edited by randyk; Sep 29th 2017 at 01:14 AM.

  8. #53

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not fixated on Satan. I'm pointing out the illegitimacy of anything that focuses on *us* as human beings, because our flesh has been contaminated with sin. By our own free will we can act outside the scope of God's will. Therefore, human "works" counts for nothing, and can be used by devils for "uninspired" purposes.


    If we focus on *who we are,* even if the Law points out the importance of priests and priestly lines, we are centering on human works, which can be manipulated by Satan to pursue self-justification. Everything properly done by "human works" under the Law obtained legitimacy not because of its own independent worth, but rather, on the assumption that mercy and virtue comes from a partnership between God and ourselves. The priests had no value apart from the fact God called them, and God sanctioned what they did.


    The NT Covenant took this a step farther by declaring that all human works are beyond redemption apart from abandonment of the OT system altogether, together with its priesthood and human works. All human works now had to be directed to Christ alone, who brings a whole new priestly system.


    And so my argument is that we can't draw any lessons from the priestly line unless it is referred to Christ as the new priesthood. And in him there is neither concern about the Levites nor any human distinction among the nations and races. The only concern is being in Christ, whatever nation or race we may be. Human works and human ancestry is thus not abandoned. But it is redirected in a new unity that does not allow for previous priestly or tribal distinctions under the Law.




    The fulfillment of the Law in Christianity is *not* the continuation of the Law! The Law was designed to show its own inadequacy, and thus the necessity for Christian fulfillment. No matter what Israel did under the Law, they were still stained with the sin nature, and this would ultimate contaminate the whole nation, causing it to fall.

    And so, the Law, while maintaining a respectable system of national righteousness, could neither remove the stain of human guilt, nor preserve national Israel indefinitely. Israel's righteousness had to progress into *Christian righteousness.* And this removed the tribal distinction of the Levites, as well as the entire priestly distinction under the Law. Nations maintain their distinction under the New Covenant, but the Law and its distinctions do not!

    The only priestly distinction that matters now is Christ himself. And all nations obtain their spirituality and unity through him. We may debate about what will exist in the future as far as Bible Prophecy. But we may *not* debate the fact Christian orthodoxy dismisses the Law as *old* covenant! There is no longer any need for a levitical or priestly class. There may indeed be a national Israel. But the tribes have passed away, along with the Law of Moses. It is pure vanity to indulge in these kinds of genealogies.

    Titus 3.9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
    The tribes were formed before the law came. You are the one that keeps referring to law, this has nothing to do with the law. I don't think what God said about the Levites that I posted was a law. I have not noticed that anyway. I know who I am in Christ so I don't fit all you talk about.

    This post however is about the tribes and dna, most people don't keep posting over and over again when they don't like a subject. I think we all know just how randyk feels about dna and the law.

    I see nothing wrong with being part of Israel and belonging to Christ.

  9. #54

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    The tribes were formed before the law came. You are the one that keeps referring to law, this has nothing to do with the law. I don't think what God said about the Levites that I posted was a law. I have not noticed that anyway. I know who I am in Christ so I don't fit all you talk about.

    This post however is about the tribes and dna, most people don't keep posting over and over again when they don't like a subject. I think we all know just how randyk feels about dna and the law.

    I see nothing wrong with being part of Israel and belonging to Christ.
    No, I actually like DNA and genealogical research. I find it interesting for the family, and in fact, God made families, nations, and races/ethnic groups. As you say, they do play a role.

    My point about the tribes of Israel going away is just historical reality. They have ceased to be distinguished. When they were distinguished prior to the Babylonian and Assyrian captivities tribal distinctions were very important. The Law required that the priests and Levites come from specific family and tribal stock.

    But with the Kingdom of David, and with all of the kings who reigned over the two kingdoms, north and south, the tribes tended to merge into the Jewish race. The Levites, however, were retained until the temple itself fell.

    No, I don't need to rehash where I stand. I find these points as interesting as you do, even if I disagree.

  10. #55

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, I actually like DNA and genealogical research. I find it interesting for the family, and in fact, God made families, nations, and races/ethnic groups. As you say, they do play a role.

    My point about the tribes of Israel going away is just historical reality. They have ceased to be distinguished. When they were distinguished prior to the Babylonian and Assyrian captivities tribal distinctions were very important. The Law required that the priests and Levites come from specific family and tribal stock.

    But with the Kingdom of David, and with all of the kings who reigned over the two kingdoms, north and south, the tribes tended to merge into the Jewish race. The Levites, however, were retained until the temple itself fell.

    No, I don't need to rehash where I stand. I find these points as interesting as you do, even if I disagree.
    Thank you for the honest opinion without all the lecturing.

  11. #56

    Re: A true jew

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Thanks tea, I thought it interesting for sure and as I said always felt part of Israel. You are the first positive remark I had on this. I guess there are more people that associate themselves as being gentile then I thought. I was surprised that no one made any comments about the biblical breakdown they do as far as blessings to each tribe. After reading more on the website they do believe Ephraim to be the USA, I did notice reading on the site. Thanks for the scripture too.
    It is a pleasure!
    I would say, be careful of getting into where which tribe lives.
    Why I say this, is that the blessing is spiritual, so I don t think it matters which tribe, but I may be wrong.
    What do you think?

  12. #57

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've been dealing recently with those who want to reestablish the validity of the Law, or rather, who say that the Law of Moses never really went away. That is *not* a legitimate Christian position...
    Having read this thread, this is the best quote for me so far.
    Though I like the idea of being grafted in and therefore a jew by grace, I still don t really understand why or what you want to establish Ky.

  13. #58

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Having read this thread, this is the best quote for me so far.
    Though I like the idea of being grafted in and therefore a jew by grace, I still don t really understand why or what you want to establish Ky.
    Thank you. We obtain our pedigree at the cross--not by lineage. Some of the greatest Christians who ever lived came out of paganism late in life. Grace is free of charge. We don't need papers.

  14. #59

    Re: A true jew

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    It is a pleasure!
    I would say, be careful of getting into where which tribe lives.
    Why I say this, is that the blessing is spiritual, so I don t think it matters which tribe, but I may be wrong.
    What do you think?
    Hi tea,
    I am not sure I know what you mean as far as where the tribes live. I don't think about it that way, I think about it as far as Israel as a whole. The word Israel is used 2575 times in the Bible, so there was lots to say about them. DNA seems to show some insight as to who makes up Israel.

    It is not just spiritual but a lot of literal for some things re prophecy regarding Israel and God's promises.

    The tribes seem to matter to the Lord or they wouldn't again be listed in the book of Revelations. For me it was finding out there is an interest in DNA for both Israel having it done and to other people. I found it quite interesting, which was why the post.

  15. #60

    Re: Tribes of Israel and today DNA

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Having read this thread, this is the best quote for me so far.
    Though I like the idea of being grafted in and therefore a jew by grace, I still don t really understand why or what you want to establish Ky.
    I am not establishing anything, however I think DNA is maybe starting to establish just who Israel is made up of. I think they are finding out it makes up more than just todays Jewish population.

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