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Thread: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

  1. #16
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    The issue of a separate Church and Israel is very important to pre-trib rapture believers, but I don't see why post-tribbers, like Randyk must hold to it?

    Also the arguments of the pr-tribbers, like Rev Man, are confusing because they must acknowledge Ephesians 2:11-18.....there is neither Jew nor Greek; all are one in Jesus.
    Not Paul, nor anyone says that people lose their ethnic identity when we become Christian, its just that in God's sight, we are the Overcomers of this world, literally His Israelites.
    I *get* Galatians 3 quite well and I do not twist it to mean we should embrace Judaism.

    The facts are; everyone has their chance now to accept the salvation offered by Jesus. Prophesies like Zechariah 14, do not mean a special redemption for the Jews. It actually tells of their deaths; two thirds, then most of the rest as well. Along with all the other ungodly peoples in the Middle East. Amos 1, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, +
    So the idea of the Church going to heaven, while the Jews experience the Great Tribulation, is unscriptural and will not happen.

    As for the gathering of those who have endured until the end, Revelation 13:9-10, this is only a meeting then for them to be with Jesus where He is; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31

  2. #17
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The issue of a separate Church and Israel is very important to pre-trib rapture believers, but I don't see why post-tribbers, like Randyk must hold to it?

    Also the arguments of the pr-tribbers, like Rev Man, are confusing because they must acknowledge Ephesians 2:11-18.....there is neither Jew nor Greek; all are one in Jesus.
    Not Paul, nor anyone says that people lose their ethnic identity when we become Christian, its just that in God's sight, we are the Overcomers of this world, literally His Israelites.
    I *get* Galatians 3 quite well and I do not twist it to mean we should embrace Judaism.
    I think that you must reconsider. Ephesians 2:11-18 address the "Covenants of Promise" (v.12). Initially only Israel is subject to the Covenants of Promise. Then, because (1) seed of Abraham are enlarged to include not only "sand of the sea-shore", but "stars of heaven", and (2) the piece of Land involved in the Promise to the "sand of the sea" is enlarged to the whole world (Rom.4:13), the Lord Jesus CREATES A "NEW MAN" TO FULFILL THIS SECOND PART. And this "New Man" is made OF "the TWAIN" (v.15). The word "of" means "out of". "The building is made out of bricks and mortar." That means that SOME "out of" Israel and SOME "out of" the nations (the twain) make up the New Man - a third. And it is is this "New Man" that there is no ethnicity. The reason for this is that a new, different, heavenly and spiritual birth is needed for it (Jn.3:3-6). That New Birth for the New Man annuls any other birth and makes a "New Family" (of God by birth - Jn.1:12), "New Man" to replace Adam's line which forfeit the earth, and a "New Creation" because "flesh and blood (of the old creation) cannot inherit the earth" in the New Kingdom (out) of Heaven.

    By default, and all means of logic, if a New Man was made OUT OF TWO (Twain) - (1) the nation of Israel and (2) the nations, then a SEPARATE Israel is present (the first of TWO), a SEPARATE entity made of all nations is present (the second of TWO), and a THIRD, the New Man is present. This gives THREE Separate Entities on earth. And these three entities each have their own destiny. They are:
    1. Israelites everywhere, and from all the centuries since Isaac, resurrected, gathered and restored to their Land under a New Covenant of Law
    2. the individual members of the families of the nations either "blessed" or in the Lake of Fire (Gen.12:3; Matt.25:31-46; Rev.20:11-15)
    3. The Church, ruling the earth (Rev.22:5) as (1) kings of Israel's Tribes (Matt.19:28; Lk.22:30), or (2) kings over the cities of the nations (Lk.19.17-19)

    If this be the case then your further comments need also to be reconsidered.

  3. #18
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The issue of a separate Church and Israel is very important to pre-trib rapture believers, but I don't see why post-tribbers, like Randyk must hold to it?

    Also the arguments of the pr-tribbers, like Rev Man, are confusing because they must acknowledge Ephesians 2:11-18.....there is neither Jew nor Greek; all are one in Jesus.
    Not Paul, nor anyone says that people lose their ethnic identity when we become Christian, its just that in God's sight, we are the Overcomers of this world, literally His Israelites.
    I *get* Galatians 3 quite well and I do not twist it to mean we should embrace Judaism.

    The facts are; everyone has their chance now to accept the salvation offered by Jesus. Prophesies like Zechariah 14, do not mean a special redemption for the Jews. It actually tells of their deaths; two thirds, then most of the rest as well. Along with all the other ungodly peoples in the Middle East. Amos 1, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, +
    So the idea of the Church going to heaven, while the Jews experience the Great Tribulation, is unscriptural and will not happen.

    As for the gathering of those who have endured until the end, Revelation 13:9-10, this is only a meeting then for them to be with Jesus where He is; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31
    Here is one way to explain it. The question we are attempting to answer is, "Who are God's people?" But there are at least two ways to answer this question, truthfully, and accurately depending on the standpoint from where we examine the question.

    Those who represent God to the world.
    Whom does the world consider to be God's people? Why do I ask it this way? Who cares what the world thinks. Right? But it matters because the world is a cruel place and has the power to harm or even kill those whom it deems undesirable. Jesus often says things like, "if they hated me they will hate you also. If they persecuted me they will persecute you also." The world hates Jesus because Jesus is the light and he sheds light on the wicked deeds of darkness and many who live in darkness prefer the dark. The light exposes their deeds and makes them feel guilty or causes them to lose face.

    Even the followers of Jesus, who simply want to walk as Jesus walked, are targets of those who love the dark, just as Jesus warned us. He spoke about a city set on a hill, and a lamp not put under a bushel, and salt that has not lost its savor. The followers of Christ are distinctively his, and can't be missed and can't be avoided when his followers stand up for righteousness and goodness.

    So then, who are God's people? From the Biblical perspective, God's people are those who love God, fear God, seek first the kingdom of God, love the brethren, repent, believe that Jesus is the Christ and things such as these. Nonetheless, God in his wisdom also designated the descendants of Jacob to be his people. And we can't deny that which is incontrovertible. The world hates Jewish people for the very same reasons they hate Jesus followers. Jewish people, by virtue of being ethnically Jewish, are hated because they are God's people. If they hated God; they hated the Jews. If they wanted to persecute God; they persecuted the Jews. As such, we can debate all day long and well into the night that Jewish people are not God's people by birth, our enemies haven't gotten the memo. The only explanation for an apparently irrational hatred of Jewish people, is hatred of God himself. Jewish people are born into association with God, and because the world associates Jewish people with God, they hate Jewish people.

    Paul raises this issue in his word to those Jews who glory in being Jewish. He reminds them that it was because of disobedience that the name of God is blasphemed in the world.

    Romans 2:
    17 But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

    It was God's good pleasure to take a people for himself from among all the tribes of the earth, which essentially necessitates that God promises to be "god" to his people, and they promise to be a "people" to him. On his part, as "god" to Israel, he promises to guide, educate, give moral instruction, provide material resources, and protect them from harm and enemies; and on their part they live as holy people among their neighbors. When it came time to discipline his people, he brought her enemies against her and eventually allowed them to be taken into exile. This situation was interpreted by the world as weakness, ineptitude, powerlessness, and inferiority. Consequently, Yahweh lost face in the world, his name was blemished, and his reputation tarnished. God wasn't punishing his people, the world thought, he was simply too weak to protect them from greater gods.

    Does God's plan include a future role for Israel?
    The answer is yes. According to the prophets, God will use Israel to restore his holy name, so that it will no longer be true that the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles. This process involves a return of the Jews back to the land of promise; a restoration of the Law of Moses; a time when the surrounding nations attack her, and unlike before, a time when God protects, and provides for her.

    Ezekiel 36:
    22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29 Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30 I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord God, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!

  4. #19

    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The issue of a separate Church and Israel is very important to pre-trib rapture believers, but I don't see why post-tribbers, like Randyk must hold to it?
    I do not hold to a separate Church and Israel as Dispensationalists do. And I explained that. Again, Israel maintains the same national distinction that any nation does. The U.S. is distinct from Great Britain. Russia is distinct from China. Finland is distinct from Germany. Israel is distinct from Jordan.

    This is obvious, and so it is easy to prove. Israel is distinct from the Church because Israel is a single nation, and the Church consists of all nations, including Israel.

    The problem, then, is that Israel could not be considered to be in the Church currently. Israel will have to be converted to Christianity in order for that nation to be considered as in the Church.

    I think some of the problem here is that we often do not think of *entire nations* as belonging in the Church. And that's because entire nations are not exclusively Christian in belief or in practice. So how can an entire nation be viewed as belonging in the Church?

    It is the way I think the "Church" is defined in the Bible. Sometimes it appears to be defined as all those who are truly Christian in belief and in practice. And at other times the Church appears to be viewed strictly as Christian organizations on earth that *claim* to be Christian in belief and in practice, and yet only have *some* faithful Christians.

    What this means is that there are churches throughout the world who claim to be Christian and who do have some faithful Christians in them, but who are not completely and exhaustively Christian. In this sense a nation can be considered a "Christian nation," and be viewed as belonging in the Church, and yet not represent the final state of the Church.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    Also the arguments of the pr-tribbers, like Rev Man, are confusing because they must acknowledge Ephesians 2:11-18.....[I
    there is neither Jew nor Greek; all are one in Jesus.[/I]
    Not Paul, nor anyone says that people lose their ethnic identity when we become Christian, its just that in God's sight, we are the Overcomers of this world, literally His Israelites.
    I *get* Galatians 3 quite well and I do not twist it to mean we should embrace Judaism.

    The facts are; everyone has their chance now to accept the salvation offered by Jesus. Prophesies like Zechariah 14, do not mean a special redemption for the Jews. It actually tells of their deaths; two thirds, then most of the rest as well. Along with all the other ungodly peoples in the Middle East. Amos 1, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, +
    So the idea of the Church going to heaven, while the Jews experience the Great Tribulation, is unscriptural and will not happen.

    As for the gathering of those who have endured until the end, Revelation 13:9-10, this is only a meeting then for them to be with Jesus where He is; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31
    I agree that Israel will have to be severely judged in order to reduce that nation down to a truly Christian nation. But I believe that's what Scriptures say will happen. Each nation will have to suffer some of this, because all nations are flawed, whether they call themselves "Christian" or not.

    Our main issue is the old argument over the loss of national and ethnic distinctions in the Church. In one place it sounds as if all these distinctions have been done away with in the Church. And in another place the Church is said to consist of "all nations." Which is it?

    I explain this by arguing that Paul is saying there are no distincitons in the Church with respect to *divine partiality.* There are to be no distinctions between nationalities and ethnicities with respect to entry into the Kingdom of God. All nationalities and ethnicities must come by true Christianity, and not by physical distinctions.

    On the other hand, all nations and ethnicities are involved. It's just that they don't come in *due to their nationalities and ethnicities,* as if this is some kind of race war. Rather, we all come in the same way, by the blood of Jesus and by the Christian faith.

    Jews do not get into the Kingdom of God strictly because they belong to Israel, the former People of God. Neither does an Englishman get into the Kingdom of God because England has a long and storied history in the Christian faith.

    But it is another thing entirely to deny that either Israel or England has no place in prophecy, determining their Christian future. Abraham was clearly promised Christian nations. England has been one already. But Israel's Christian history will be, I believe, in the future.
    Last edited by randyk; Aug 14th 2017 at 07:15 PM.

  5. #20
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    I read the three posts above; 17,18 &19, and just shake my head at the convoluted and long winded attempts to keep a nation; the Jewish people; still as God's chosen ones.
    This idea is sheer foolishness and quite contradictory to the New Testament message of salvation available to all. Nothing: race, age, sex, or whatever keeps us from the love of God.
    And those He loves are His children, the sons of the Living God. There are no others. 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10 and 7:9, plus prophesies like Isaiah 56:1-8, all make it clear that the holy people of God come from every tribe, race, nation and language. That includes those Jews who have become Christian, but those who have not will die on the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, Described in Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 13:19, Ezekiel 21:4 and many others.
    What did Jesus say? Bring those who did not want Me for a King and slaughter them before Me. Luke 19:27

  6. #21
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I read the three posts above; 17,18 &19, and just shake my head at the convoluted and long winded attempts to keep a nation; the Jewish people; still as God's chosen ones.
    This idea is sheer foolishness and quite contradictory to the New Testament message of salvation available to all. Nothing: race, age, sex, or whatever keeps us from the love of God.
    And those He loves are His children, the sons of the Living God. There are no others. 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10 and 7:9, plus prophesies like Isaiah 56:1-8, all make it clear that the holy people of God come from every tribe, race, nation and language. That includes those Jews who have become Christian, but those who have not will die on the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, Described in Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 13:19, Ezekiel 21:4 and many others.
    What did Jesus say? Bring those who did not want Me for a King and slaughter them before Me. Luke 19:27
    It would seem that your Bible only has a few Chapters. Consider this in its simplicity.
    1. Out of Isaac, son of Abraham, God raised up a physical nation and told them He had "chosen" them. Deuteronomy 10:15 says; "Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day." If this complicated for you, I cannot tell. But whatever Israel's past, present and future holds - THEY ARE A CHOSEN PEOPLE. SIMPLE?
    2. Israel from Abraham and Isaac start their saga in the early Chapters of Genesis. They occupy most of the Old Testament from then on. They were the people God send our Lord Jesus to, they are the people that rejected Jesus, they are the people who persecuted the Christians until their Land, City and Temple were destroyed in 70 AD. They occupy large portions of the New Testament and its books. And the Book written after 70 AD, the Book of Revelation, is full of Israel and events surrounding Jerusalem. Finally, in the very last pages which promise a New Jerusalem, Israel features prominently as the Gates of God's heavenly City on the New Earth. Thus, Israel's existence, history, present and future takes a large part of the New Testament. SIMPLE!
    3. Lastly, we all know that the word "Salvation" is used in the broadest sense in the Bible and must be defined every time by the context. Noah's salvation is different to Israel's at the Red Sea. And being saved by "child-bearing" in 1st Timothy 2:15 is a different salvation to that of faith in Jesus and avoiding the Lake of Fire. The man who would SIMPLIFY the Bible to make one meaning of "salvation" valid throughout the Bible is being a bit too SIMPLISTIC.

    Time to consider the vast, rich and sometimes dark history of Israel, their present plight as they are strewed in all nations on earth, and their glorious future predicted by both Old Testament and New Testament prophets under inspiration - and that, right up to the second last Chapter of the Bible. IT IS NOT COMPLICATED if you believe the Bible.

  7. #22
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    There is a glorious future for the Israelites of God, His holy people who will occupy all of the holy Land and be, at last, God's witnesses and who will spread the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus.
    Not so good for those current inhabitants of all the Middle east, including the Jewish nation, as they still remain in apostasy, atheism, false religionists, and LGBT lovers. There are dozens of prophesies that say Judah will be judged and only a small remnant will survive. All in the chapters you seem to have overlooked, Walls.

    Over the 20 centuries since the time of Jesus Christ’s first coming to earth, the Jewish people have suffered terrible persecutions, pogroms and discrimination.
    This fulfils several prophecies – that the Jews will be a curse and a derision in the world;
    Jeremiah 17:1-4 The sins of Judah is recorded on their hearts, the fire of My anger will burn forever.

    Ezekiel 21:2-7 Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem and prophesy against the Land of Israel. I shall draw My sword to cut off everyone from South to North.
    I will make away with both the righteous and wicked, My sword will be drawn against everyone from the Negev northward. All courage will fail – it will surely take place
    .
    Ezekiel 21:10-14 A sword is sharpened for the slaughter, polished to flash like lightning.
    Should we rejoice in the scepter of Judah? No, the sword condemns the Rod of My Son. Cry and wail for it falls on My people – all your rulers will be killed.
    Testing will surely come – what if the scepter of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter
    .

    Verse 14 is highly significant, as it may foretell three judgements of the Jewish people.
    1/ The Babylonian conquest in 585BC.
    2/ The revolt against the Romans, Maccabees to AD 70, when millions were killed.
    3/ The final gathering and judgement of the Jewish people in the Land, by the Lord.

    At the trial of Jesus, the Jews said in; Matthew 27:25 His blood be on us and our children. In the parable of the King and his servants, Luke 19:14 ..his subjects hated him and said “We don’t want this man to be our King “
    Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine that did not want Me for a King, bring them here ( into the Land ) and slaughter them in My presence.

    Matthew 21:38-43 The parable of the vineyard - The wicked tenants said; This is the Heir, come – let us kill him and get the inheritance. The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. He will then rent the vineyard to righteous tenants.
    Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you [Jews ] and given to a people who will bear the proper fruit.


    Ezekiel 16:35-62 The Lord is saying how He rescued and tended Judah, but her depraved conduct surpassed even that of her sisters, Samaria ( Israel ) and Sodom
    Therefore, you prostitute, because of your brazen excesses, I shall assemble all those around you - whom you loved. I shall bring you to trial for adultery and murder.
    When I hand you over to them, they will strip you naked. They will punish you with stones and swords, burn down your houses and execute judgement in the sight of many women. You surpassed the sins of your sisters, Samaria and Sodom.

    The eventual restoration of a remnant in your shame and humiliation.

    Jeremiah 8:3 The Lord says to the leaders of Judah; You will be as dung spread over the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live.

    Jeremiah 18:1-10 The Potter and the clay.
    V6 House of Israel, I will remould you as a potter would a spoilt pot.
    Israel, the Northern 10 tribes, are to be ‘remoulded’. Ezekiel 36:25-28

    Jeremiah 19:3 Proclaim to the leaders and citizens of Judah.
    V11 I shall smash this people as an earthen vessel is smashed beyond repair. There will be no room left to bury them.
    Judah, judged and punished, in this next prophesied event. Isaiah 22:1-14

    Psalms 69:35 for God will save Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah.
    This has happened now, with the Jews doing amazing construction and agricultural achievements since 1948.
    But, then...
    Psalms 69:36 The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His name will live there.

    In the land of Israel today, 42% of the Jewish population are secular ( atheist ) 25% believe in God, but do not actively worship Him and 12% practice Judasim, 8% are the extreme ultra orthodox Haredi Jews. In all the amazing things that have happened to the Jews since 1948 – their resettlement, restored language and wars won, but they still do not acknowledge Gods hand in their affairs.

  8. #23
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    There is a glorious future for the Israelites of God, His holy people who will occupy all of the holy Land and be, at last, God's witnesses and who will spread the good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus.
    Not so good for those current inhabitants of all the Middle east, including the Jewish nation, as they still remain in apostasy, atheism, false religionists, and LGBT lovers. There are dozens of prophesies that say Judah will be judged and only a small remnant will survive. All in the chapters you seem to have overlooked, Walls.

    Over the 20 centuries since the time of Jesus Christ’s first coming to earth, the Jewish people have suffered terrible persecutions, pogroms and discrimination.
    This fulfils several prophecies – that the Jews will be a curse and a derision in the world;
    Jeremiah 17:1-4 The sins of Judah is recorded on their hearts, the fire of My anger will burn forever.

    Ezekiel 21:2-7 Son of man, set your face toward Jerusalem and prophesy against the Land of Israel. I shall draw My sword to cut off everyone from South to North.
    I will make away with both the righteous and wicked, My sword will be drawn against everyone from the Negev northward. All courage will fail – it will surely take place
    .
    Ezekiel 21:10-14 A sword is sharpened for the slaughter, polished to flash like lightning.
    Should we rejoice in the scepter of Judah? No, the sword condemns the Rod of My Son. Cry and wail for it falls on My people – all your rulers will be killed.
    Testing will surely come – what if the scepter of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter
    .

    Verse 14 is highly significant, as it may foretell three judgements of the Jewish people.
    1/ The Babylonian conquest in 585BC.
    2/ The revolt against the Romans, Maccabees to AD 70, when millions were killed.
    3/ The final gathering and judgement of the Jewish people in the Land, by the Lord.

    At the trial of Jesus, the Jews said in; Matthew 27:25 His blood be on us and our children. In the parable of the King and his servants, Luke 19:14 ..his subjects hated him and said “We don’t want this man to be our King “
    Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine that did not want Me for a King, bring them here ( into the Land ) and slaughter them in My presence.

    Matthew 21:38-43 The parable of the vineyard - The wicked tenants said; This is the Heir, come – let us kill him and get the inheritance. The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. He will then rent the vineyard to righteous tenants.
    Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you [Jews ] and given to a people who will bear the proper fruit.


    Ezekiel 16:35-62 The Lord is saying how He rescued and tended Judah, but her depraved conduct surpassed even that of her sisters, Samaria ( Israel ) and Sodom
    Therefore, you prostitute, because of your brazen excesses, I shall assemble all those around you - whom you loved. I shall bring you to trial for adultery and murder.
    When I hand you over to them, they will strip you naked. They will punish you with stones and swords, burn down your houses and execute judgement in the sight of many women. You surpassed the sins of your sisters, Samaria and Sodom.

    The eventual restoration of a remnant in your shame and humiliation.

    Jeremiah 8:3 The Lord says to the leaders of Judah; You will be as dung spread over the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live.

    Jeremiah 18:1-10 The Potter and the clay.
    V6 House of Israel, I will remould you as a potter would a spoilt pot.
    Israel, the Northern 10 tribes, are to be ‘remoulded’. Ezekiel 36:25-28

    Jeremiah 19:3 Proclaim to the leaders and citizens of Judah.
    V11 I shall smash this people as an earthen vessel is smashed beyond repair. There will be no room left to bury them.
    Judah, judged and punished, in this next prophesied event. Isaiah 22:1-14

    Psalms 69:35 for God will save Zion and rebuild the cities of Judah.
    This has happened now, with the Jews doing amazing construction and agricultural achievements since 1948.
    But, then...
    Psalms 69:36 The children of those who serve Him will inherit the Land and those who love His name will live there.

    In the land of Israel today, 42% of the Jewish population are secular ( atheist ) 25% believe in God, but do not actively worship Him and 12% practice Judasim, 8% are the extreme ultra orthodox Haredi Jews. In all the amazing things that have happened to the Jews since 1948 – their resettlement, restored language and wars won, but they still do not acknowledge Gods hand in their affairs.
    Nearly everything you have said is correct. Nobody disputes the verses you give. And nobody disputes that the curses of the Law, especially those of Deuteronomy Chapter 28, have come to pass accurately and painfully. I also think that Israel's darkest hour is still before them as they NOT ONLY REJECT THEIR TRUE MESSIAH, BUT EMBRACE THE BEAST AND IDOLATRY. But I think that we discuss what the END will be for EVERY ISRAELITE EVER BORN. What will happen say, to Reuben, Joseph, Joshua, Samuel, Jeroboam, Ahab, Solomon, and the prophets? Some have reputable reports and some disreputable reports. What happens to all those who broke the Law of Moses and were carried away to Assyria, Babylon and the ends of the earth? And what happens to the children born to these apostates? After all it concerns Isaac's seed.

    That is, WHAT IS THEIR NATIONAL FUTURE? And scripture maintains the RECOVERY OF EVERY SINGLE ISRAELITE EVER BORN. This is not based on any good or evil works. It is based upon God's PROMISES. God PROMISED Abraham and his seed a piece of Land with fixed borders. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob lived in the Land but NEVER POSSESSED IT. Four generations of their "seed" either died in Egypt or in the wilderness. Starting in about 740 BC ten northern Tribes of Israel were ripped from their Land - never to return. Neither did their children return until some did in 1948 onward. The two southern Tribes are carried off to Babylon and only about 2.5% returned to set up Israel again. The other 97.5% stayed in Babylon and they and their children were scattered through the earth.

    But God promised Abraham, not based on the Law which came 430 years later, but based on circumcision, that He would give this Land to Isaac's seed. God's HONOR IS AT STAKE! Good or bad, lawful or not, God made a Promise to bring every seed of Abraham's via Isaac, who was circumcised, INTO THIS LAND. In the 4,000 years since Abraham, his seed has multiplied hugely, but more Jews than not have NEVER LIVED IN THE GOOD LAND. Is God a man that he is impotent to achieve His Promise to Abraham? Perish the thought! God will bring every Israelite, of every century, whether long dead and buried, and wherever he or she may be, BACK INTO THE PROMISED LAND. This has nothing to do with faith in Jesus. Jesus was the propitiation for their sins to allow God to do what He wants judicially. But Israel being gathered and restored to their Land is a GIVEN otherwise God is a liar and is impotent (Perish the thought! It even pains me to write such a nonsensical concept).

    Will those who have lived evil lives like Jeroboam, Ahab and Solomon escape? No! Daniel 12 is clear. Verse 1 concerns the Great Tribulation in which many will be saved (not from the Lake of Fire but from the Beast and the things that befall the earth at that time). Then verse 2 reads; "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Why the "many" and not "all"? Because some refused circumcision and are "cut off from their people" (Gen.17:14). But notice that of them who were circumcised BOTH the good and evil are resurrected and restored to their Land (Ezekiel 37).

  9. #24
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I read the three posts above; 17,18 &19, and just shake my head at the convoluted and long winded attempts to keep a nation; the Jewish people; still as God's chosen ones.
    This idea is sheer foolishness and quite contradictory to the New Testament message of salvation available to all. Nothing: race, age, sex, or whatever keeps us from the love of God.
    And those He loves are His children, the sons of the Living God. There are no others. 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10 and 7:9, plus prophesies like Isaiah 56:1-8, all make it clear that the holy people of God come from every tribe, race, nation and language. That includes those Jews who have become Christian, but those who have not will die on the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, Described in Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 13:19, Ezekiel 21:4 and many others.
    What did Jesus say? Bring those who did not want Me for a King and slaughter them before Me. Luke 19:27
    I disagree with your replacement theology Keraz, and I always will. And apparently, I can say nothing to change your mind. But here is one last attempt, although brief.

    Who is an "Israelite" according to the Bible?

    Romans 9:
    1. I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

    Who are God's people?

    Romans 11:
    1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

    Did God reject Israel as a nation?

    Romans 11:
    11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

    In Paul's entire discourse, in which he explains how God will keep his promise to bring deliverance to Israel, his holy people, he never once refers to Gentiles as "his people", never once refers to the church as "Israel", never once refers to Gentile believers as "Israelites". On the contrary, he always maintains that "Israelites" are his "kinsmen according to the flesh", "descendants of Abraham" and belonging to one of the tribes of Jacob, "Benjamin" for instance. And he clearly denies that the literal, physical nation of Israel has not stumbled so as to fall to her destruction, but that because of her transgression, i.e. killing the messiah, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

    In other words, Paul never, ever refers to Gentiles as Israelites and he constantly maintains the distinction.

  10. #25

    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I read the three posts above; 17,18 &19, and just shake my head at the convoluted and long winded attempts to keep a nation; the Jewish people; still as God's chosen ones.
    This idea is sheer foolishness and quite contradictory to the New Testament message of salvation available to all. Nothing: race, age, sex, or whatever keeps us from the love of God.
    And those He loves are His children, the sons of the Living God. There are no others. 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10 and 7:9, plus prophesies like Isaiah 56:1-8, all make it clear that the holy people of God come from every tribe, race, nation and language. That includes those Jews who have become Christian, but those who have not will die on the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath, Described in Isaiah 29:1-4, Jeremiah 13:19, Ezekiel 21:4 and many others.
    What did Jesus say? Bring those who did not want Me for a King and slaughter them before Me. Luke 19:27
    And yet you completely ignore the point, in the midst of your insults. The point is that there is a difference between remnants and individuals originating from all these groups--from all these nations and ethnicities--and the idea of entire nations being called and chosen by God.

    If you think Israel was not called and chosen as a nation in the OT era you are fooling yourself. That's what the Bible says! And if you think Abraham was not promised *nations* you're fooling yourself.

    What you do is interpret these things as if they are referring to national and ethnic *origins*--not actual entities. You are talking about remnant salvation and individual salvation, but ignoring the role God said *nations* would play as full entities in this process.

    Entire nations may never represent 100% Christianity, or 100% regeneration. But it has been God's plan from the beginning to use nations. And if you think God prefers pagan nations over Christian nations I wonder where your sense of justice is?

  11. #26
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Three against one! Nothing unusual about that for me, as I promote what the Bible prophets wrote and they were vilified, abused and even killed for their prophesying.

    Randyk: God is using the Christian nations. We have spread the Gospel around the world, made converts of every people group. Faithful Christians are the people of God, His children, from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10

    C & Z: Thanks for your efforts, but you still get me wrong; I do not espouse 'Replacement Theology', but a continuation of the congregation of God- the Israelites in the desert, the faithful remnant thru the ages and the born again Christians of today. Paul's kinsmen had their chance to do what we Christians now do and I personally have done on the mission field. Please take careful note of the Parable of the kings banquet, where the invited guests made excuses and so the feast was made available to all who would come.

    Walls: God is NOT impotent, He knows where all the descendants of Jacob are. Amos 9:9. His promises to the Patriarchs will be fulfilled by them; who are now the majority of the Christian peoples, either by descent or by grafting in.
    The two twelfths of them that comprise the Jewish people, approx. half of them are now in the holy Land, will be judged along with all the world on the Lord's Day of wrath. The prophesies I pointed out about the judgement of Judah, plus many others, are clear: not many will survive.
    I disagree that every Israelite ever born will be saved. There were plenty of wicked ones from the start: Korah for example: Numbers 16. Here are some more scriptures that prove the forthcoming punishment of Judah:
    Obadiah 12-16 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations....you too will drink the cup of wrath that My people, Judah, must drink on My Holy mountain.
    Ezekiel 21:4 I intend to do away with both righteous and wicked alike. My sword is drawn against everyone from the Negev northward.
    Hosea 8:14 And for you, Judah, a harvest of reckoning will come.
    Isaiah 9:18-19 Wicked men have been set ablaze. The Land is scorched and the people are food for the fire.
    Jeremiah 13:19 The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away.
    Jeremiah 21:11-14 To the Royal House of Judah....I shall punish you as you deserve. I shall set fire to your scrubland, it will consume everything around about.
    Zephaniah 1:4-6 Judah will be judged and those who have neither sought the Lord, nor enquired of Him, will be wiped out.
    Jeremiah 8:5-12 Judah has no remorse or repentance, they say; All is well- no nothing is well. They will all fall on the Day of reckoning. You will be as dung spread on the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live.
    Zechariah 13:8-9 It will happen throughout the Land, that 2/3 of the people will die. The 1/3 left will pass through the refining fire. They will call on Me and I will answer them....
    Isaiah 4:3-4 The remnant of Judah will be called holy when the Lord cleanses Zion by a Spirit of judgement burning like fire.

    Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine, who did not want Me for their King, bring them here and slaughter them
    Matthew 27:25 His blood be upon us and our children.
    Matthew 21:41-42 The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will bear fruit.

  12. #27
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Three against one! Nothing unusual about that for me, as I promote what the Bible prophets wrote and they were vilified, abused and even killed for their prophesying.

    Randyk: God is using the Christian nations. We have spread the Gospel around the world, made converts of every people group. Faithful Christians are the people of God, His children, from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10

    C & Z: Thanks for your efforts, but you still get me wrong; I do not espouse 'Replacement Theology', but a continuation of the congregation of God- the Israelites in the desert, the faithful remnant thru the ages and the born again Christians of today. Paul's kinsmen had their chance to do what we Christians now do and I personally have done on the mission field. Please take careful note of the Parable of the kings banquet, where the invited guests made excuses and so the feast was made available to all who would come.

    Walls: God is NOT impotent, He knows where all the descendants of Jacob are. Amos 9:9. His promises to the Patriarchs will be fulfilled by them; who are now the majority of the Christian peoples, either by descent or by grafting in.
    The two twelfths of them that comprise the Jewish people, approx. half of them are now in the holy Land, will be judged along with all the world on the Lord's Day of wrath. The prophesies I pointed out about the judgement of Judah, plus many others, are clear: not many will survive.
    I disagree that every Israelite ever born will be saved. There were plenty of wicked ones from the start: Korah for example: Numbers 16. Here are some more scriptures that prove the forthcoming punishment of Judah:
    Obadiah 12-16 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations....you too will drink the cup of wrath that My people, Judah, must drink on My Holy mountain.
    Ezekiel 21:4 I intend to do away with both righteous and wicked alike. My sword is drawn against everyone from the Negev northward.
    Hosea 8:14 And for you, Judah, a harvest of reckoning will come.
    Isaiah 9:18-19 Wicked men have been set ablaze. The Land is scorched and the people are food for the fire.
    Jeremiah 13:19 The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away.
    Jeremiah 21:11-14 To the Royal House of Judah....I shall punish you as you deserve. I shall set fire to your scrubland, it will consume everything around about.
    Zephaniah 1:4-6 Judah will be judged and those who have neither sought the Lord, nor enquired of Him, will be wiped out.
    Jeremiah 8:5-12 Judah has no remorse or repentance, they say; All is well- no nothing is well. They will all fall on the Day of reckoning. You will be as dung spread on the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live.
    Zechariah 13:8-9 It will happen throughout the Land, that 2/3 of the people will die. The 1/3 left will pass through the refining fire. They will call on Me and I will answer them....
    Isaiah 4:3-4 The remnant of Judah will be called holy when the Lord cleanses Zion by a Spirit of judgement burning like fire.

    Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine, who did not want Me for their King, bring them here and slaughter them
    Matthew 27:25 His blood be upon us and our children.
    Matthew 21:41-42 The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will bear fruit.
    Not one of the verses you use to answer me address Israel's recovery AFTER the Great Tribulation. No one denies Israel's CHASTISEMENT. We speak of Israel AFTER Christ's return. And, as written in my previous posting, which you answered not a word against, Israel are recovered to their Land NOT because of evil or good. They are recovered BECAUSE OF GOD'S PROMISE TO ABRAHAM. Why would you ever think that only "good" Israelites are returned to their Land when the Bible clearly says that God will wash away their SINS (Isa.1:8, 44:22; Mic.7:18, etc.). Do "good" men need their sins washed away? Israel is is recovered DESPITE THEIR SINS.

    May I suggest you read my posting #23 again carefully.

  13. #28

    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Three against one! Nothing unusual about that for me, as I promote what the Bible prophets wrote and they were vilified, abused and even killed for their prophesying.

    Randyk: God is using the Christian nations. We have spread the Gospel around the world, made converts of every people group. Faithful Christians are the people of God, His children, from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10
    Alright, I appreciate the affirmation. We're on the same page as far as God using Christian nations. We're on a different page with respect to how these nations play a role in Abraham's covenant. You think the national and ethnic differences dissolve. I think the differences continue to be affirmed. I'm not sure how to resolve this at this point?

    It seems that you're stuck on the idea that Israel cannot make its way back into the fellowship of Christian nations? I think Paul made it pretty clear that not only can Israel come back, but that it will come back as a full nation.

    And many also are stuck on the idea that the nations cannot be considered to be part of the Church. Although I do acknowledge the "dumbing down" of Christianity in Christian states I do think Christian states can be viewed as truly "Christian nations." This is not their final status in eternity, but it may be their final status in the Millennial Age. Perhaps this is where we differ?

  14. #29

    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    Quote Originally Posted by Louwrens Erasmus View Post
    If this is what the Talmud teaches about Jesus, why would He come back to save them?
    The short answer is that God is not man, therefore His grace exceeds all of our understanding.

    But the longer answer is that when God makes a promise and a covenant, then He binds Himself to keep it.

    Even though the majority of Jews of Jesus' day rejected Him, God was not finished with Israel. He brought terrible judgment upon His own people (as prophesied) and in 70 AD Judea, Jerusalem, and the temple were utterly destroyed, and the Jews were banished from Palestine and scattered over the earth.

    But God had made covenants with Abraham and with David in which redeemed and restored Israel would exist on this earth in the Land of Promise, from the Nile to the Euphrates. That is yet future and will happen only after the Second Coming of Christ.

    During the Church Age, spiritual blindness has come upon the majority of Jews and they continue to reject Jesus the Messiah. At the same time there are many Messianic Jews who are being saved as we speak. But after "the fulness of the Gentiles" has come into the Church, the Church will be raptured, and God will resume His dealings with the nation of Israel.

    Firstly, they will go through their own Tribulation ("the time of Jacob's trouble"), and when Christ returns to earth they will mourn and weep, and repent and be converted. So the ones who mock Christ and reject Him today will be in Hell, but the ones who believe on Him at His second coming will go into the Millennium as redeemed Jews under the authority of Christ.

  15. #30
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    Re: A question about the Jews and Dispensationalism

    I posted 13 prophesies that say that Judah, the Jewish people as a nation, will be judged and punished and only a remnant will survive. There are many more prophesies proving this outcome for the Jewish nation of Israel.
    Paul never said that his kinsmen would be all redeemed and forgiven. He said they were cut off from the natural olive tree and we Christians are grafted in. Then in Romans 11:24, he says they can readily be grafted back into the Tree, but Paul did not say they would be as a ethnic group and we know that we only got there by being born again in Jesus, therefore it is up to every individual Jew or Gentile to accept Jesus. Ethnicity is of no help in this, in fact for the Jewish people; it is a hindrance, as they actively reject Christianity.

    If the verse about the 'whole of Israel shall be saved', Romans 11:26, is thought to refer only to the Jewish nation, then you have an anomaly with all the prophesies saying that only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27
    Romans 11:26 is preceded by v 25, where Paul says: a hardening has come upon Israel [the Jews] and when the Gentiles have been admitted in their full numbers, THEN all Israel, both Jews and Gentiles, will be saved.
    Who are saved? Every individual who has accepted Jesus and is a faithful Christian, that's who. Those who reject Him will die. Simple really and quite in accordance with what God did in Noah's day. As we are again as in the days of Noah, Matthew 24:37, expect dramatic things to happen and look up for your liberation draws near. Luke 21:25-28

    But do not expect to be taken up to heaven, that idea is nor a part of God's plan for His people. We are earth beings and remain here to fulfil our destiny and to do that, as the prophesies describe, will be the greatest thing you or I can imagine; to be a part of the fulfilment of God's incredible Plan for His Creation.

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