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Thread: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

  1. #76
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The problem is that many of us whose mother tongue is the English language and who I might add, neither understand nor are proficient in Greek inexplicably choose internet Greek to explain Scriptures while we are yet to fully comprehend its clear English text. So to explain my own views, I will ignore the "Greek" since it is all jargon to me. I rather trust the English version of the fathers who first translated the Scriptures from Greek to English.

    There is only one Second Coming of Jesus in the end times. In 1 Thess 4:16-17 he fulfilled his promise to the disciples that he's going away to prepare a place for them and come again to "receive them [the church], so that wherever he is, there they will be also (John 14:3).

    1. There is NO evidence that his feet (Jesus) touched the earth after meeting them in the clouds.
    2. There is No evidence that anyone else (the wicked left on earth) saw him or the now immortalised saints.

    After welcoming his raptured/resurrected saints in the air, Jesus takes them back to heaven where John sees the Marriage of the Lamb take place (Rev 19:7-8). After the marriage is over, the church is clothed in white and then returns to earth with Jesus to destroy the Beast at Armageddon.

    Unfortunately, your interpretation of Matt 24:37 is incorrect. What Jesus alluded in that discourse is plain.

    Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


    The answer is in v-38-39. While Jesus and the church are in heaven, the wicked on earth will continue with their evil and degenerate lifestyles. Presumably, the Antichrist would have spun them some lies to explain away the disappearance of millions in the rapture. So as those in Noah's generation continued to live amorous and decadent lives (eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage) until the flood came and swept them away, the same will be the case for the wicked on earth when the Messiah appears suddenly and destroys them.

    It has nothing to do with Jesus being present in the clouds for several days or months as claimed. This is the true story according to scripture. Any other claim to Jesus being suspended in the clouds for days or months is plain wrong. No amount of Greek can make it right.
    If you read through your posting again carefully, you will see that you actually propagate MORE THAN ONE COMING by your theory! I will show you.

    You have our Lord COMING to receive His saints (the Church as you have it). For this He MUST COME from the highest heaven where He resides now. This is in accordance with the WHOLE of 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, which speak of the COMING of Jesus and our gathering to Him in Rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13 4:15 and 5:23 our Lord's COMING is alluded to and the word in every case is "Parousia" meaning, "His PRESENCE". Then you have Jesus AND the raptured saints returning to heaven, having a wedding feast, and returning with Christ as an army to fight the beast. That my friend is TWO COMINGS! One to fetch His saints, and one to destroy the Beast. There is no escape for the first of your two comings is "His COMING" in Chapter 4 verse 15. And verse 16 assures us that He LEFT HEAVEN.

    But what does 1st and 2nd Thessalonians really say? In 1st Thessalonians the overall theme is that the Thessalonian believers had been taught by imposters that the dead would miss the Rapture. But Paul shows in Chapter 4 that this is not so. He shows that the dead will RISE (from Hades) first, and would then meet the living on the surface of the earth. Then, "TOGETHER" they would be raptured (4:17). That is, the meeting of the Lord in the air and clouds is to BE IN HIS PRESENCE. Then, 2nd Thessalonians starts in Chapter 2:1 with the same thing - the COMING of Jesus and again the word in Greek is "Parousia". But now the theme is NOT the dead, but that some Thessalonian Christians erroneously thought that the great Tribulation had begun already. It reads; "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Parousia - "presence") of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering (Rapture) together unto him."

    And the same context continues to verse 8 which reads, CONCERNING THE BEAST, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Again the word in Greek is "Parousia". Since the CONTEXT is verse 1 where it is Christ's PAROUSIA, but in connection with "gathering" the saints, IT IS THE SAME "PAROUSIA" THAT WILL DESTROY THE BEAST. Now, the Beast is NEVER in the clouds, nor the air, nor heaven EVER. The destruction of the Beast who never leaves earth, and is defeated and subdued at Armageddon, is CONNECTED WITH THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST AND HIS GATHERING OF THE SAINTS! That is, there is ONE PRESENCE of the Lord in the air and clouds and the SAME PRESENCE when He completes the journey to earth!

    THERE IS ONLY ONE COMING (Presence") WITH DIFFERENT EVENTS AND STOP-OVERS. That is why the Greek words are crucial. In my argument above Christ COMES for His saints. He is "Parousia" (present) with them IN THE AIR. But, part of the same journey, His COMING", is to destroy the Beast - BUT THIS TIME ON EARTH. Thus, our Lord Jesus "left heaven", gathered His saints to the air where we meet Him, and are judged at the Bema, and then proceed DOWNWARDS to the earth to meet the Beast at Armageddon where the same "Parousia", or PRESENCE will destroy the Beast, but not in the sky any longer, but on earth.

  2. #77
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The problem is that many of us whose mother tongue is the English language and who I might add, neither understand nor are proficient in Greek inexplicably choose internet Greek to explain Scriptures while we are yet to fully comprehend its clear English text. So to explain my own views, I will ignore the "Greek" since it is all jargon to me. I rather trust the English version of the fathers who first translated the Scriptures from Greek to English.

    There is only one Second Coming of Jesus in the end times. In 1 Thess 4:16-17 he fulfilled his promise to the disciples that he's going away to prepare a place for them and come again to "receive them [the church], so that wherever he is, there they will be also (John 14:3).

    1. There is NO evidence that his feet (Jesus) touched the earth after meeting them in the clouds.
    2. There is No evidence that anyone else (the wicked left on earth) saw him or the now immortalised saints.

    After welcoming his raptured/resurrected saints in the air, Jesus takes them back to heaven where John sees the Marriage of the Lamb take place (Rev 19:7-8). After the marriage is over, the church is clothed in white and then returns to earth with Jesus to destroy the Beast at Armageddon.

    Unfortunately, your interpretation of Matt 24:37 is incorrect. What Jesus alluded in that discourse is plain.

    Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

    39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


    The answer is in v-38-39. While Jesus and the church are in heaven, the wicked on earth will continue with their evil and degenerate lifestyles. Presumably, the Antichrist would have spun them some lies to explain away the disappearance of millions in the rapture. So as those in Noah's generation continued to live amorous and decadent lives (eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage) until the flood came and swept them away, the same will be the case for the wicked on earth when the Messiah appears suddenly and destroys them.

    It has nothing to do with Jesus being present in the clouds for several days or months as claimed. This is the true story according to scripture. Any other claim to Jesus being suspended in the clouds for days or months is plain wrong. No amount of Greek can make it right.
    Doesn't this speak of two comings rather than just one? When Jesus gathers His in the the clouds, then returns to heaven according to you, is this done in secret, or will the entire world witness this first coming of two comings? Maybe it's just me, but sometimes when reading your posts, I'm left somewhat confused at times, thinking you're maybe contradicting what you are arguing against.

  3. #78
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Doesn't this speak of two comings rather than just one? When Jesus gathers His in the the clouds, then returns to heaven according to you, is this done in secret, or will the entire world witness this first coming of two comings? Maybe it's just me, but sometimes when reading your posts, I'm left somewhat confused at times, thinking you're maybe contradicting what you are arguing against.
    I did not contradict myself.

    There is no scriptural support that the wicked who miss the rapture and remain on earth will see the resurrected/raptured immortalized saints meet with Jesus in the clouds. Prove me wrong with scripture! The Bible says that when he returns, "every eye shall see him" (Rev 1:7). So until then Jesus and his immortalized saints will be invisible to those on earth.

    If you want to believe that the meeting in the clouds equates to a coming, it is your prerogative. But it doesn't fit the bible's idea of his coming, otherwise, the scriptures wouldn't have hyped on a Second Coming. The scriptures are emphatic that there is only a Second coming, with his birth as the First. Therefore the theory of multiple comings and goings of Jesus BEFORE his actual Return is junk doctrine.

  4. #79
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If you read through your posting again carefully, you will see that you actually propagate MORE THAN ONE COMING by your theory! I will show you.

    You have our Lord COMING to receive His saints (the Church as you have it). For this He MUST COME from the highest heaven where He resides now. This is in accordance with the WHOLE of 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, which speak of the COMING of Jesus and our gathering to Him in Rapture. In 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13 4:15 and 5:23 our Lord's COMING is alluded to and the word in every case is "Parousia" meaning, "His PRESENCE". Then you have Jesus AND the raptured saints returning to heaven, having a wedding feast, and returning with Christ as an army to fight the beast. That my friend is TWO COMINGS! One to fetch His saints, and one to destroy the Beast. There is no escape for the first of your two comings is "His COMING" in Chapter 4 verse 15. And verse 16 assures us that He LEFT HEAVEN.

    But what does 1st and 2nd Thessalonians really say? In 1st Thessalonians the overall theme is that the Thessalonian believers had been taught by imposters that the dead would miss the Rapture. But Paul shows in Chapter 4 that this is not so. He shows that the dead will RISE (from Hades) first, and would then meet the living on the surface of the earth. Then, "TOGETHER" they would be raptured (4:17). That is, the meeting of the Lord in the air and clouds is to BE IN HIS PRESENCE. Then, 2nd Thessalonians starts in Chapter 2:1 with the same thing - the COMING of Jesus and again the word in Greek is "Parousia". But now the theme is NOT the dead, but that some Thessalonian Christians erroneously thought that the great Tribulation had begun already. It reads; "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Parousia - "presence") of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering (Rapture) together unto him."

    And the same context continues to verse 8 which reads, CONCERNING THE BEAST, "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." Again the word in Greek is "Parousia". Since the CONTEXT is verse 1 where it is Christ's PAROUSIA, but in connection with "gathering" the saints, IT IS THE SAME "PAROUSIA" THAT WILL DESTROY THE BEAST. Now, the Beast is NEVER in the clouds, nor the air, nor heaven EVER. The destruction of the Beast who never leaves earth, and is defeated and subdued at Armageddon, is CONNECTED WITH THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST AND HIS GATHERING OF THE SAINTS! That is, there is ONE PRESENCE of the Lord in the air and clouds and the SAME PRESENCE when He completes the journey to earth!

    THERE IS ONLY ONE COMING (Presence") WITH DIFFERENT EVENTS AND STOP-OVERS. That is why the Greek words are crucial. In my argument above Christ COMES for His saints. He is "Parousia" (present) with them IN THE AIR. But, part of the same journey, His COMING", is to destroy the Beast - BUT THIS TIME ON EARTH. Thus, our Lord Jesus "left heaven", gathered His saints to the air where we meet Him, and are judged at the Bema, and then proceed DOWNWARDS to the earth to meet the Beast at Armageddon where the same "Parousia", or PRESENCE will destroy the Beast, but not in the sky any longer, but on earth.
    I have already corrected divaD from this misconception in post #78. The good news is that you now agree that there is ONLY ONE Coming (the Second). The meeting in the clouds is not accounted as a Coming! Why? See Rev 1:7. The meeting is the clouds is a private affair between Jesus and the saints, the wicked on earth are not privy to that. I am unable to accept your chronology of events above as it failed to recognise that Jesus and the saints return to heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb after which the saints are arrayed in white for the ACTUAL Return to earth with the Messiah.

    As I pointed out to divaD, if the meeting in the clouds is regarded as His Coming, the Bible would have said there will be a third Return. If you follow my sequence of events, you'll see that the destruction of the Beast and his army occurs after Jesus actually returns (Rev 1:7) when every eye sees him.

  5. #80
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I did not contradict myself.

    There is no scriptural support that the wicked who miss the rapture and remain on earth will see the resurrected/raptured immortalized saints meet with Jesus in the clouds. Prove me wrong with scripture! The Bible says that when he returns, "every eye shall see him" (Rev 1:7). So until then Jesus and his immortalized saints will be invisible to those on earth.

    If you want to believe that the meeting in the clouds equates to a coming, it is your prerogative. But it doesn't fit the bible's idea of his coming, otherwise, the scriptures wouldn't have hyped on a Second Coming. The scriptures are emphatic that there is only a Second coming, with his birth as the First. Therefore the theory of multiple comings and goings of Jesus BEFORE his actual Return is junk doctrine.
    Maybe I believe the coming in the clouds is a coming for very good reason, because that's exactly what the text indicates it is.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 *But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord

    Can't get any plainer or clearer than this.

    Verse 14 says...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Bring with Him for what reason if that reason is not to bring them to the earth with Him when He returns?

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