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Thread: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

  1. #1

    2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    It has been said that the coming of Jesus will consist of 2 parts; a secret coming when Jesus will rapture the church, followed 7 years later by a physical coming when Jesus will judge the earth. In the book of Revelation, the rapture comes in the 4th chapter and the physical return occurs in the 19th chapter. The chapters between the rapture and the physical return of Jesus describe 7 years of increasingly great tribulation.

    However, as early as the 6th chapter, unbelievers are seen acknowledging and hiding from the presence of both God the Father and God the Son. In the same chapter, the earth is affected by the presence of God. This section describes a time where unbelievers and the earth itself testify to the presence of God, yet it is said that Jesus' physical return won't happen until a later time.

    I don't understand how the physical return of Jesus in chapter 19 and his presence in chapter 6 could be separate events.

  2. #2

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    As a pre-tribber, I believe Revelation 5 is when Jesus "stands to judge". [at the opening of the First Seal; the 6th Seal is after that point in time, but the 6th Seal is well before the events of Rev19 (His 2nd Coming to the earth) time-wise]



    [see also Isa 3:13]

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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Yes, i agree with above I believe that in Rev 5 Jesus stands to Judge.

    When Jesus stands to Judge Opening the Seals the book of Isaiah records the people on Earth going into Caves to hide during this time.

    See Isaiah 2:6-19

    And people shall enter the caves of the rocks and the holes of the ground, from before the terror of the Lord, and from the splendor of his majesty,
    when he rises to terrify the earth. 20 In that day mankind will cast away their idols of silver and their idols of gold, which they made for themselves to worship, to the moles and to the bats, 21 to enter the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs, from before the terror of the Lord, and from the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to terrify the earth.

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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    It has been said that the coming of Jesus will consist of 2 parts; a secret coming when Jesus will rapture the church, followed 7 years later by a physical coming when Jesus will judge the earth. In the book of Revelation, the rapture comes in the 4th chapter and the physical return occurs in the 19th chapter. The chapters between the rapture and the physical return of Jesus describe 7 years of increasingly great tribulation.

    However, as early as the 6th chapter, unbelievers are seen acknowledging and hiding from the presence of both God the Father and God the Son. In the same chapter, the earth is affected by the presence of God. This section describes a time where unbelievers and the earth itself testify to the presence of God, yet it is said that Jesus' physical return won't happen until a later time.

    I don't understand how the physical return of Jesus in chapter 19 and his presence in chapter 6 could be separate events.
    If our Lord Jesus sits on His Father's throne now "above ALL heavens" (Eph.4:10; Heb.8:1; Rev.3:21), and He makes a journey to the earth, it is logical that He will pass through the upper atmosphere, then through the clouds which usually stop at the tropopause (ca. 55,000 ft at the equator and about 50,000 ft over the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem). Then, He will touch down on Mount Olives like lightening, seen from east and west of Jerusalem. The length of time He spends in the clouds, unseen to the world, could be more or less than 7 years. There are no scriptures to verify this. But if the Church is to be judged at the "Bema" (the Traveling Throne of Jesus as opposed to His permanent Throne He will set up in Jerusalem), then it could be some time. So, for the Church, because He is in the clouds, and we are raptured to the clouds (1st Thess.4:17), the Lord will come as a Thief. He remains unseen by anyone until that moment of rapture. But for the nation of Israel, and for the nations gathered around Jerusalem under the command of the Beast, our Lord Jesus will suddenly "appear". The Greek word for His "presence" (in the clouds) is "Parousia". The Greek word for His "appearing" to all is "Apokalypsus", another name for the Book of Revelation.

    I see the natural divisions of Revelation as follows:
    Chapter 1 to 3 - the closing words to an apostate Church. After this the Church is never mentioned again
    Chapter 4 - the coronation of Jesus in heaven
    Chapter 5 - the promised wrath of God from heaven is presented to the One worthy of administering it - Jesus
    Chapter 6 to 12 - general events as a result of God's wrath, the Seals and the Tribulation on earth caused by opening them
    Chapter 13 - the Beast, his presentation, crowning, and his war against the saints
    Chapter 14 - the presentation of the Overcoming Christians
    Chapter 15 to 16 - specific tragedies on earth under God's wrath
    Chapter 17 - the demise of all world religions at the hand of the 10 kings so that the Beast alone can be worshiped by all men
    Chapter 18 - the demise of this world's commercial system at the hand of God
    Chapter 19 - the demise of the Beast and his armies at the hand of Jesus, His angels and His overcomers at Armageddon
    Chapter 20 - the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus and the revolt of Satan at the end of it to test Christ's Kingdom
    Chapter 21 to 22 - the "Renewed" heaven and earth upon which all things that God intended with man from the beginning are consummated

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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    It has been said that the coming of Jesus will consist of 2 parts; a secret coming when Jesus will rapture the church, followed 7 years later by a physical coming when Jesus will judge the earth. In the book of Revelation, the rapture comes in the 4th chapter and the physical return occurs in the 19th chapter. The chapters between the rapture and the physical return of Jesus describe 7 years of increasingly great tribulation.

    However, as early as the 6th chapter, unbelievers are seen acknowledging and hiding from the presence of both God the Father and God the Son. In the same chapter, the earth is affected by the presence of God. This section describes a time where unbelievers and the earth itself testify to the presence of God, yet it is said that Jesus' physical return won't happen until a later time.

    I don't understand how the physical return of Jesus in chapter 19 and his presence in chapter 6 could be separate events.
    That's because there is only one second coming and the pre-tribbers twist and wrest the scriptures to conform to their preconceived notions. They have an Americanized fast food eschatology model. They bypass suffering for the gospel's sake and present a candy coated deception where they will escape it all.
    2 Ti 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

  6. #6

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    That's because there is only one second coming and the pre-tribbers twist and wrest the scriptures to conform to their preconceived notions. They have an Americanized fast food eschatology model. They bypass suffering for the gospel's sake and present a candy coated deception where they will escape it all.
    I'd like to 2nd the motion....

  7. #7

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    It has been said that the coming of Jesus will consist of 2 parts; a secret coming when Jesus will rapture the church, followed 7 years later by a physical coming when Jesus will judge the earth. In the book of Revelation, the rapture comes in the 4th chapter and the physical return occurs in the 19th chapter. The chapters between the rapture and the physical return of Jesus describe 7 years of increasingly great tribulation.

    However, as early as the 6th chapter, unbelievers are seen acknowledging and hiding from the presence of both God the Father and God the Son. In the same chapter, the earth is affected by the presence of God. This section describes a time where unbelievers and the earth itself testify to the presence of God, yet it is said that Jesus' physical return won't happen until a later time.

    I don't understand how the physical return of Jesus in chapter 19 and his presence in chapter 6 could be separate events.
    I've said this before, and I'll say it again. The vision John saw was a vision. That means it can take liberties explaining lots of little details--all without a necessary chronology tying it all together. In fact, there are at least two major visions in the Revelation, the scroll vision and the Beast vision. Both tell the same story, that the world is heading for a crisis point in God's plan. Just like Israel bit the dust so will much of the world bite the dust, following the Beast. But Christ will come back to destroy the Beast, judge the world, and save the Church. He will also restore the nations of the world to Christian rule. And that includes Israel.

    Throughout these two major visions there are lots of different things presented about Christ's coming. It is looked at as though his coming is already happening, or immediately upon us, and then things about that coming are explained. So it isn't as though Christ is going to come several times. It's just that his coming is pictured a number of different times, in a way as if John is actually witnessing it, so different things can be explained to us about it.

    This is how a vision works at times. And this is how I think it worked in this case.

    As to the Pretrib Rapture, it would've been very easy for the Holy Spirit to say in ch. 4 that the Church was caught up to heaven before the Tribulation, to escape having to suffer the Antichrist. Or, it would've been simple for the Holy Spirit to explain that John's Rapture to heaven symbolically represented the Church's Rapture to heaven.

    But the Holy Spirit didn't say that. And He obviously didn't mean to say that. If He had meant to say that He would've said that! And we know that God warned us not to tamper with the words of this book!

    So we *don't* have a Rapture of the Church in ch. 4. And we don't have a Pretrib Rapture of the Church *anywhere in the Scriptures.* That's why the Church didn't teach a Pretrib Rapture for 1800 years, because it just isn't there in the Scriptures.

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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    It has been said that the coming of Jesus will consist of 2 parts; a secret coming when Jesus will rapture the church, followed 7 years later by a physical coming when Jesus will judge the earth. In the book of Revelation, the rapture comes in the 4th chapter and the physical return occurs in the 19th chapter. The chapters between the rapture and the physical return of Jesus describe 7 years of increasingly great tribulation.

    However, as early as the 6th chapter, unbelievers are seen acknowledging and hiding from the presence of both God the Father and God the Son. In the same chapter, the earth is affected by the presence of God. This section describes a time where unbelievers and the earth itself testify to the presence of God, yet it is said that Jesus' physical return won't happen until a later time.

    I don't understand how the physical return of Jesus in chapter 19 and his presence in chapter 6 could be separate events.
    The rapture is not in Rev 4, nor is Rev 19 His return. Further, the 7 year theory is a false hope and the secret rapture is untrue. These four assumptions are all incorrect and why so many do not understand Revelation.

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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    That's because there is only one second coming and the pre-tribbers twist and wrest the scriptures to conform to their preconceived notions. They have an Americanized fast food eschatology model. They bypass suffering for the gospel's sake and present a candy coated deception where they will escape it all.
    LOL! A wee bit touchy subject?

  10. #10

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes, i agree with above I believe that in Rev 5 Jesus stands to Judge.

    When Jesus stands to Judge Opening the Seals the book of Isaiah records the people on Earth going into Caves to hide during this time.

    See Isaiah 2:6-19

    And people shall enter the caves of the rocks and the holes of the ground, from before the terror of the Lord, and from the splendor of his majesty,
    when he rises to terrify the earth. 20 In that day mankind will cast away their idols of silver and their idols of gold, which they made for themselves to worship, to the moles and to the bats, 21 to enter the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs, from before the terror of the Lord, and from the splendor of his majesty, when he rises to terrify the earth.
    "from the splendor of his majesty," is yet another appearance of Jesus before the appearance in chapter 19; which seems to be the only one that counts. I don't understand why the appearance in chapter 19 is the only one that counts.

  11. #11

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    "from the splendor of his majesty," is yet another appearance of Jesus before the appearance in chapter 19; which seems to be the only one that counts. I don't understand why the appearance in chapter 19 is the only one that counts.
    The text says they say [to the mountains and rocks], "Fall on us, hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"...

    Are you thinking God moved His "throne" to Pittsburgh, or something? And they are saying this AFTER He relocated?


    [G4383 - prosópon / prosōpou - 'the face'] "ἀπό προσώπου τίνος φεύγειν, to flee in terror from the face (German Anblick) of one enraged, Revelation 20:11; κρύπτειν τινα etc. (see κρύπτω, a.), Revelation 6:16" [from Bible Hub]


    see also Psalm 76:8-9, "8 Thou didst cause judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared, and was still, 9 When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah."


    ____________

    I see the following passage to be a part of what takes place during the 2nd Seal Wars [before the 6th Seal; and after the 1st Seal, of course]

    18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
    19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
    20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
    21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
    22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
    23Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord. - Ezek38:18-23

  12. #12

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If our Lord Jesus sits on His Father's throne now "above ALL heavens" (Eph.4:10; Heb.8:1; Rev.3:21), and He makes a journey to the earth, it is logical that He will pass through the upper atmosphere, then through the clouds which usually stop at the tropopause (ca. 55,000 ft at the equator and about 50,000 ft over the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem). Then, He will touch down on Mount Olives like lightening, seen from east and west of Jerusalem. The length of time He spends in the clouds, unseen to the world, could be more or less than 7 years. There are no scriptures to verify this. But if the Church is to be judged at the "Bema" (the Traveling Throne of Jesus as opposed to His permanent Throne He will set up in Jerusalem), then it could be some time. So, for the Church, because He is in the clouds, and we are raptured to the clouds (1st Thess.4:17), the Lord will come as a Thief. He remains unseen by anyone until that moment of rapture. But for the nation of Israel, and for the nations gathered around Jerusalem under the command of the Beast, our Lord Jesus will suddenly "appear". The Greek word for His "presence" (in the clouds) is "Parousia". The Greek word for His "appearing" to all is "Apokalypsus", another name for the Book of Revelation.

    I see the natural divisions of Revelation as follows:
    Chapter 1 to 3 - the closing words to an apostate Church. After this the Church is never mentioned again
    Chapter 4 - the coronation of Jesus in heaven
    Chapter 5 - the promised wrath of God from heaven is presented to the One worthy of administering it - Jesus
    Chapter 6 to 12 - general events as a result of God's wrath, the Seals and the Tribulation on earth caused by opening them
    Chapter 13 - the Beast, his presentation, crowning, and his war against the saints
    Chapter 14 - the presentation of the Overcoming Christians
    Chapter 15 to 16 - specific tragedies on earth under God's wrath
    Chapter 17 - the demise of all world religions at the hand of the 10 kings so that the Beast alone can be worshiped by all men
    Chapter 18 - the demise of this world's commercial system at the hand of God
    Chapter 19 - the demise of the Beast and his armies at the hand of Jesus, His angels and His overcomers at Armageddon
    Chapter 20 - the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus and the revolt of Satan at the end of it to test Christ's Kingdom
    Chapter 21 to 22 - the "Renewed" heaven and earth upon which all things that God intended with man from the beginning are consummated
    I understand the pre-trib view about the rapture in chapter 4 and the physical appearance in chapter 19. I don't understand the pre-trib view on his appearance in chapter 6? Is His presence in the clouds at this point or does He appear to all at this point?

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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    "from the splendor of his majesty," is yet another appearance of Jesus before the appearance in chapter 19; which seems to be the only one that counts. I don't understand why the appearance in chapter 19 is the only one that counts.
    I don't know either brother. When i first started Studying the second coming everyone pointed to Matthew 24:31 as the "event" it wasn't till later that i found out that The olive discourse spans Matthew 24-25 and doesn't end till the beginning of Matthew 26. Then i started to see the pattern, the whole coming in the Clouds is a different event then his actual second coming. Personally i didn't know how to wrap my mind around this but it seems consistent thoughout the bible.

    What i mean is Zech 12:10 seems to be a different event then Zech 14:3-5

    Matthew 24:31 seems to be a different event then Matthew 25:31

    Rev 14:14-16 seems to be different then Rev 19:11.

    I didn't really understand how this made sense but personally i understand it all thru the lense of Daniel 7:13-14. Where the "Son of Man"(Used in Matthew 24 and Rev 14:14-16) goes before God the father with the clouds of Heaven, and afterwards comes to earth to establish his Kingdom.

    This to me made me have to reevaluate how i understand the second coming, and specific passages that Jesus says like this one And he said to him, John 1:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

    So like you i wanted to see if there was a pattern between the stories, my conclusion is that Rev 5-11 tells the same story as Rev 12-18.

    My main problem was to find a Corolation between Rev 14:14 somewhere in Rev 5-11 and the answer to me is Rev 10. I believe in Rev 10 the Angel that comes down is Jesus as the "Son of Man" notice he has the "scroll open" in his hand!!. I mean unless there is new scroll introduced into the story between the 7th seal being opened and chap 10 idk why Jesus would have possible given up the scroll to this angel at some point. This Angel is not yet the King of Kings tho, this happens after he is Crowned at the 7th trumpet! Which of Course is the next chapter 11. After Jesus is crowned King of Kings then he comes back to make war with the Beast.

    Notice what is said in this passage Rev 17:These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

    The Lamb only fights the AC after he is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Which is why in Rev 19 we see him with Many Crowns in contrast to Rev 14:14 where he has only one Crown.

    Personally i don't know if i'm right, this is just how i've come to understand the scriptures lately. My only point is would you consider Matthew 24:31 or Matthew 25:31 as the second coming? Or do like most we assume this is the same moment and Rev 14 is the same as Rev 19 Zech 12 is the same as Zech 14 ect..
    There are also a BUNCH of passages of the Lord Coming in the Clouds, but this to me seems to be different the Jesus coming with all his Saints and the army of Heaven. I used to think these events was the same now i'm not sure.
    Everyone see's Jesus coming in the Clouds the question is where is he going! Take Rev 14:14-16 for example after the harvest where do you believe the Son of Man goes next?? Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    I just want to go on record and say i don't belive either of these events involve a rapture

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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I understand the pre-trib view about the rapture in chapter 4 and the physical appearance in chapter 19. I don't understand the pre-trib view on his appearance in chapter 6? Is His presence in the clouds at this point or does He appear to all at this point?
    In Chap 6 Jesus is still in Heaven, He still has to Judge the host of Heaven in Heaven, then He comes down to earth to Judge the Kings of the Earth.


    "I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

    Isaiah 34:4-5
    And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

    Rev 6:12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

    IOW we don't believe Jesus leaves heaven after the 6th seal because he is still in heaven to open the 7th seal. He judges the Earth from Heaven.

    Also see 2 Thes 1:7-8

    Jesus is revealed from Heaven with "Fire".

  15. #15

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    The text says they say [to the mountains and rocks], "Fall on us, hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb"...

    Are you thinking God moved His "throne" to Pittsburgh, or something? And they are saying this AFTER He relocated?


    [G4383 - prosópon / prosōpou - 'the face'] "ἀπό προσώπου τίνος φεύγειν, to flee in terror from the face (German Anblick) of one enraged, Revelation 20:11; κρύπτειν τινα etc. (see κρύπτω, a.), Revelation 6:16" [from Bible Hub]


    see also Psalm 76:8-9, "8 Thou didst cause judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared, and was still, 9 When God arose to judgment, to save all the meek of the earth. Selah."
    I am thinking God must have relocated his throne from heaven to earth at this point. Unbelievers would not talk like this without unmistakable divine intervention.

    Rev. 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices... No earthquake when God's throne is in heaven.

    When God moves his throne from heaven to earth, the earth quakes. After chapter 4 of the Revelation, an earthquake is always mentioned with the lightnings and thunderings and voices; which we have just been told proceed from God's throne. See also Rev. 8:5, 11:19, 16:18.

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