Page 3 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 164

Thread: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

  1. #31

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I had added to my post #11 the other day, perhaps you didn't see it (regarding the effects of the 2nd Seal Wars, of which I believe Ezekiel 38 is a part):

    [quoting that post addition]

    "I see the following passage to be a part of what takes place during the 2nd Seal Wars [before the 6th Seal; and after the 1st Seal, of course]

    18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
    19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
    20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
    21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
    22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
    23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord. - Ezek38:18-23"
    To me, this seems to describe the 7th vial more than the 2nd seal. And I place the timing of most of the 6th seal together with the 7th vial. The people marched to fight against God and then shook at his presence, perhaps they even hid themselves.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,933

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    People have to introduce theories based on semantics when the scriptures contradict their view. If we see the Lord as Christ, and the day of the Lord as the same as the day of Christ, the same as the second coming. ALL one specific day. Then this fits well with all scripture. Have you any specific verse that would deny that the rapture is the same day as the resurrection, which is the same day as the day of Christ, which is the same day as the second coming, which is the same day as the day of the Lord?

    Sure it's all well and good to have a complicated view, but can you find scriptural fault with the simpler view is my question?
    If scripture makes a difference, it is not semantics. If you were setting up your new laptop you would make sure that every dot and stroke was in the right place, for we all know the agony of one wrong dot in an E-Mail address. How much more shall we students of our God's Word be precise? For instance, resurrection day, which you quizzed me about, is definitely not on ONE DAY. How could it be if Luke 21:36, which tells us, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man", indicates "standing before the Son of Man" Who is not yet on earth, because the Great Tribulation spoken of here is still to happen, BUT Revelation Chapter 11 shows two servants of the Lord resurrected AFTER the 1260 days of Jerusalem being trampled by the Gentiles? One group is resurrected BEFORE the Great Tribulation, and another most worthy group is resurrected at the end of the Great Tribulation!

    "Semantics?" ... I think not my brother. Let us humble ourselves and make the effort to make the difference when scripture does.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    3,933

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Great, the appearance of Jesus is always physical. Isn't that appearance supposed to be kept secret until Rev 19? Aren't the people hiding from the physical appearance of Jesus in Rev 6?

    What is the wrath of God doing in chapter 6? Aren't the 7 vials the wrath of God, and aren't they the 7 last plagues? Rev. 15:1
    And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
    You mix the word "physical" with "secret". Our Lord Jesus is PHYSICALLY sitting on God's throne "above all heavens". But He is hidden from all eyes on earth right now. He is both Physical AND Secret. Then, He raptures the Church and, "... but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1st John 3:2). At that moment you and I are in the clouds and "see Him". But those left on earth will NOT "see him". So our Lord, in the clouds, is both physical and seen by us, and both physical and UNSEEN by the rest of the earth's population. That is, for the world, He is physical but SECRET. Then He touches down of Mount Olives and is both physical and seen BY ALL. He is still physical but NOT secret anymore.

    You do not need Chapter 4 of Revelation to develop a theory on the rapture. It is openly and directly spoken of in other scriptures. Chapter 4 of Revelation deals with His coronation IN HEAVEN, and Chapter 6 deals with agonies let lose by the opening of God's Seals on men on the earth. Read them through and try to find any mention of rapture.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Clanton Alabama
    Posts
    579

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Between the rapture of chapter 4 and the second coming of chapter 19 is verse 6:16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    What are these people hiding from and when are they hiding?
    The Lambs Wrath. The very First Seal is the Lambs Wrath. So all the Seals are the Lambs Wrath, the people of Earth only realize this when the "Supernatural Events" of Seal number 6 happens. Seals 1-4 are just Wars and men have had those for eons, Seal number 5 is just Jesus testifying unto the the Martyrs/Deaths of the evil Tyrants in league with the BEAST. GOD IS SYMMETRICAL.

    The Trumpets are the Prayers of the Saints, taken to the Alter of God, then mingled with Fire and cast back to towards earth as Judgments, thus I see them as the Wrath of the Holy Spirit (PRAYERS OF SAINTS BRING THE JUDGMENTS TO PASS).

    And we all know the Vials are the Wrath of God the Father.

    They are hiding from from the Wrath of God which is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

  5. #35

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    To me, this seems to describe the 7th vial more than the 2nd seal. And I place the timing of most of the 6th seal together with the 7th vial. The people marched to fight against God and then shook at his presence, perhaps they even hid themselves.
    After the 7th Vial and Armageddon, there's no time for the following to be taking place, as it's pretty much time for the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom to commence (aka the wedding feast/supper, aka the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth]):


    [no time for this to be happening, this is earlier (in the trib, as I understand it)]

    39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

    13 Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord God.

    14 And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.

    15 And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog.

    16 And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse the land.



    [also considering the "seven years" of v.9]

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    ADELAIDE / South Australia
    Posts
    3,150

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    It has been said that the coming of Jesus will consist of 2 parts; a secret coming when Jesus will rapture the church, followed 7 years later by a physical coming when Jesus will judge the earth.
    We should only be interested in what Jesus told us.
    Where did Jesus imply 2 comings?
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  7. #37

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You mix the word "physical" with "secret". Our Lord Jesus is PHYSICALLY sitting on God's throne "above all heavens". But He is hidden from all eyes on earth right now. He is both Physical AND Secret. Then, He raptures the Church and, "... but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1st John 3:2). At that moment you and I are in the clouds and "see Him". But those left on earth will NOT "see him". So our Lord, in the clouds, is both physical and seen by us, and both physical and UNSEEN by the rest of the earth's population. That is, for the world, He is physical but SECRET. Then He touches down of Mount Olives and is both physical and seen BY ALL. He is still physical but NOT secret anymore.

    You do not need Chapter 4 of Revelation to develop a theory on the rapture. It is openly and directly spoken of in other scriptures. Chapter 4 of Revelation deals with His coronation IN HEAVEN, and Chapter 6 deals with agonies let lose by the opening of God's Seals on men on the earth. Read them through and try to find any mention of rapture.
    The point I am trying to make in this thread is that Jesus in no longer a secret as early as chapter 6, where people are hiding from his openly physical presence. That does not seem to fit with a view that Jesus waits to be seen until chapter 19.

  8. #38

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    The Lambs Wrath. The very First Seal is the Lambs Wrath. So all the Seals are the Lambs Wrath, the people of Earth only realize this when the "Supernatural Events" of Seal number 6 happens. Seals 1-4 are just Wars and men have had those for eons, Seal number 5 is just Jesus testifying unto the the Martyrs/Deaths of the evil Tyrants in league with the BEAST. GOD IS SYMMETRICAL.
    Why are evil tyrants given white robes?

    Isn't God the Father the one who is seated on the throne in the 6th seal?

    The Trumpets are the Prayers of the Saints, taken to the Alter of God, then mingled with Fire and cast back to towards earth as Judgments, thus I see them as the Wrath of the Holy Spirit (PRAYERS OF SAINTS BRING THE JUDGMENTS TO PASS).

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    And we all know the Vials are the Wrath of God the Father.
    Who comes as a thief in Rev. 16:15?

    Rev. 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    They are hiding from from the Wrath of God which is the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
    Aren't they also hiding from the presence of God?

  9. #39

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    We should only be interested in what Jesus told us.
    Where did Jesus imply 2 comings?
    That is the essence of the pre-trib theory isn't it?

  10. #40

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    We should only be interested in what Jesus told us.
    Where did Jesus imply 2 comings?
    It is found throughout the Olivet discourse. Jesus differentiated between his parousia/coming, and his erchomai/ coming. It is even found in the apostles question(s).

    1. What shall be the SIGN of thy parousia/ coming and [what shall be the SIGN] of the end of the world.
    2. The parousia/ coming of the son of man shall be like lightning, shining [being visible] from the easy unto the west.
    3. As the days of Noah were [before the flood, when the ark wad preparing] so shall also the parousia be.
    4a. *[[Mat 24:42]] KJV* Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    4b. *[[Mat 24:44]] KJV* Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    4c. *[[Mat 24:46]] KJV* Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

    Jesus clearly differentiated between his coming/ parousia (g2064)and his coming/erchomai(g2240).
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    3,975
    Blog Entries
    29

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    It has been said that the coming of Jesus will consist of 2 parts; a secret coming when Jesus will rapture the church, followed 7 years later by a physical coming when Jesus will judge the earth. In the book of Revelation, the rapture comes in the 4th chapter and the physical return occurs in the 19th chapter. The chapters between the rapture and the physical return of Jesus describe 7 years of increasingly great tribulation.

    However, as early as the 6th chapter, unbelievers are seen acknowledging and hiding from the presence of both God the Father and God the Son. In the same chapter, the earth is affected by the presence of God. This section describes a time where unbelievers and the earth itself testify to the presence of God, yet it is said that Jesus' physical return won't happen until a later time.

    I don't understand how the physical return of Jesus in chapter 19 and his presence in chapter 6 could be separate events.
    The Bible speaks of only one "coming" of Jesus, which is made clear once we know what it actually means. Many passages talk about the "coming" of Christ, but this message is a bit obscure in English since the English word "coming" is a bit mundane. Suppose I write to tell my friend that I want to visit him. He will undoubtedly ask me, "when are you coming?" That is, he wants to know what day I plan to arrive. What day will we be able to talk face-to-face?

    The Greek word translated "coming" includes all that. But the Greek word "parousia:coming" also includes another very important connotation. During ancient times when a new King came to power, he rode into the capital city of his empire on a horse, preceded by his troops, and his captives and the spoils of his victory. This grand celebration of his becoming king, dramatized by his entrance into his capital city, was called his "parousia:coming." During his reign the king will visit his capital often, and he has probably visited the capital many times before that, but on this special and highly significant occasion, his entrance into the city marks the beginning of his reign as king -- and that special occasion is called his "parousia:coming."

    Likewise, Jesus had visited Jerusalem many times before, during his ministry. But when Jesus returns to take his rightful place as king, he will have a special day when his entrance into Jerusalem has more importance and significance that any other prior visit. When he enters the city this time, his followers will celebrate the "parousia:coming" of Jesus, marking his first day as king. And, Jesus says, this won't take place until the Jewish people living in Jerusalem are finally willing to say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

    The rapture of the church is not a "coming" of the Lord in that sense. His feet never touch the ground. Rather, his followers will be taken into the air to gather with him there. Jesus told his followers not to believe stories that Jesus is out in the desert, or in a cave, or hanging out in someone's basement watching NFL football with his buddies. Don't believe any "Jesus sightings" that are undoubtedly going to happen, because when his followers gather to be with Jesus, the venue will be the sky. Jesus is coming on the clouds and he will gather his followers to meet him in the clouds, appearing to them privately in the sky. This event is not his "parousia:coming," which takes place on earth when he starts to rule. (Revelation 11:15)

  12. #42

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If scripture makes a difference, it is not semantics. If you were setting up your new laptop you would make sure that every dot and stroke was in the right place, for we all know the agony of one wrong dot in an E-Mail address. How much more shall we students of our God's Word be precise? For instance, resurrection day, which you quizzed me about, is definitely not on ONE DAY. How could it be if Luke 21:36, which tells us, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man", indicates "standing before the Son of Man" Who is not yet on earth, because the Great Tribulation spoken of here is still to happen, BUT Revelation Chapter 11 shows two servants of the Lord resurrected AFTER the 1260 days of Jerusalem being trampled by the Gentiles? One group is resurrected BEFORE the Great Tribulation, and another most worthy group is resurrected at the end of the Great Tribulation!

    "Semantics?" ... I think not my brother. Let us humble ourselves and make the effort to make the difference when scripture does.
    If you're going to bank on specifics, technicalities, and "small dots," why would you read so much into something that is not specifically said? There's a reason for principles like Occam's Razor, ie the simpler is the better. Why would you read into your quote above a "resurrection" when the specific historic reference is to escape from the Romans in the Jewish War of 66-70 AD?

    We know, although it is often rejected, that this escape has to do with the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. And we know that this did not immediately result in a resurrection, a "standing before the Son of Man."

    This judgment upon Israel was designed not for Jesus' disciples but for the wicked in Israel, and thus Jesus called upon those who followed him to pray that they may be among those worthy of avoiding this judgment. This would show that they are among the chosen of God who would one day "stand before the Son of Man," counted as among his faithful followers.

    So yes, it does have to do with the resurrection of the saints. But it certainly doesn't pinpoint a *time* at which this happens. It just guarantees this as a reward for those counted worthy of escaping a judgment designed only for the wicked in Israel.

    Can you imagine a resurrection only for the righteous in Israel? What about the rest of the Christians in the world? Or, can you imagine a resurrection to take place in 70 AD?

    No, this was only what Dan 12 promised, that those who "shine like the righteous," following the Tribulation of the entire NT age, will be granted resurrection from the dead. Jesus never meant to pinpoint the resurrection of the righteous in Israel in 70 AD!

    Neither did Jesus promise escape from the general tribulation of the NT age. Clearly, Jesus promised that the same period of Tribulation afflicting the Jewish People would also see suffering for Christians. They would not escape, but would suffer persecution by the world.

    Neither did Christians get promised to them escape from the oppressive rule and persecution of Antichrist. In the book of Revelation faithful Christians are promised again and again that they would be rewarded for their selflessness and faith by a resurrection from the dead at the end of a period of 3.5 years.

    Sometimes Christians do escape judgments that are designed for the wicked. But there is no guarantee of escape from persecution, since this is the fate of all righteous Christians.

    No, if you're going to be precise there is no "escape" here that immediately results in a resurrection. A resurrection here is simply promised those Christians who are faithful. It is not even specifically implied here that the escape and the resurrection are simultaneous.

    It is as if I say you will have a large retirement if you regularly put money into your retirement account. You certainly will not have a large amount when you *begin* to put money into your retirement account.

    Or, I could say that if are on a cruise you will be billed later for your orders. The billing may come much later than when you order things. In the same way, those who are faithful and who then escape various troubles designed for the wicked will stand before the Son of Man much later in history than the time they prove themselves faithful.

    It will be the same for us all. If we are faithful today we will stand before the Son of Man much later, in the future.

  13. #43

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You mix the word "physical" with "secret". Our Lord Jesus is PHYSICALLY sitting on God's throne "above all heavens". But He is hidden from all eyes on earth right now. He is both Physical AND Secret. Then, He raptures the Church and, "... but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1st John 3:2). At that moment you and I are in the clouds and "see Him". But those left on earth will NOT "see him". So our Lord, in the clouds, is both physical and seen by us, and both physical and UNSEEN by the rest of the earth's population. That is, for the world, He is physical but SECRET. Then He touches down of Mount Olives and is both physical and seen BY ALL. He is still physical but NOT secret anymore.

    You do not need Chapter 4 of Revelation to develop a theory on the rapture. It is openly and directly spoken of in other scriptures. Chapter 4 of Revelation deals with His coronation IN HEAVEN, and Chapter 6 deals with agonies let lose by the opening of God's Seals on men on the earth. Read them through and try to find any mention of rapture.
    A Pretrib Rapture is *not* openly and directly spoken of in other Scriptures. If so, where? Rev 4 presents a throne room scene of God towards which all events in the present age point. It is based on Dan 7, where a similar court room scene is viewed, also leading to the coming Kingdom of God.

    Also, the Scriptures indicate that when the Church is caught up to see Christ this will take place at the same time that Christ *descends from heaven.* This is when the "peoples of the earth" see him and weep (Rev 1.7).

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    6,215

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    If scripture makes a difference, it is not semantics. If you were setting up your new laptop you would make sure that every dot and stroke was in the right place, for we all know the agony of one wrong dot in an E-Mail address. How much more shall we students of our God's Word be precise? For instance, resurrection day, which you quizzed me about, is definitely not on ONE DAY. How could it be if Luke 21:36, which tells us, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man", indicates "standing before the Son of Man" Who is not yet on earth, because the Great Tribulation spoken of here is still to happen, BUT Revelation Chapter 11 shows two servants of the Lord resurrected AFTER the 1260 days of Jerusalem being trampled by the Gentiles? One group is resurrected BEFORE the Great Tribulation, and another most worthy group is resurrected at the end of the Great Tribulation!

    "Semantics?" ... I think not my brother. Let us humble ourselves and make the effort to make the difference when scripture does.
    Some people mistakenly apply Luke 21:36 to all of Luke 21 which makes no sense. You faithful Christians will stand before kings but if you are prayerful then you will escape these things.... That way of thinking does not make sense. There is a list of things to escape in verse 34, anxieties and drunkenness. This is pretty obviously the list of things we must escape in verse 36. So that pretrib "escaping" is an obvious misinterpetation.

    i believe the two witnesses are resurrected at the general resurrection. Once again i ask, have you any verse that contradicts the view that it all occurs on one day?

    And by the way, its obvious that the day of Christ is the day of the Lord. Jesus is after all our Lord. Have you any verse that favors otherwise?

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    6,215

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    We are very close on this. The only differences are my view that the saints in heaven were resurrected as opposed to raptured, and I end the break for this set of visions at 8:5, not 8:2. I do believe 8:2 fits with the trumpet visions, so these visions overlap as written.

    Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

    Compare this verse with Rev 11:19 and Rev 16:18 which I believe come at or near the end of other sets of visions.

    Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    Very insightful. I believe you are correct.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Christ's pre-"comings?"
    By randyk in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: Jul 7th 2017, 12:22 AM
  2. Replies: 27
    Last Post: May 26th 2015, 09:26 AM
  3. Appearances (from an e-mail)
    By TomH in forum Comfort and encouragement
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: Feb 9th 2011, 05:02 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •