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Thread: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

  1. #151
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The important thing to realize is *how* Scriptures are being interpreted. We *all* know the Scriptures. So my arguments are coming first. If after the arguments are understood we can discuss which Scriptures we are using to make our points.



    This is the whole reason why quoting Scriptures alone is not sufficient to prove the argument! There are semantics issues involved, which can easily be misconstrued. ....
    The standard argument that scripture does not mean what it says. God says: "Do not murder." The "Semanticists" say, "It means something else".

  2. #152

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The standard argument that scripture does not mean what it says. God says: "Do not murder." The "Semanticists" say, "It means something else".
    If that's what you think I mean, you're very mistaken.

  3. #153

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I don't understand how the physical return of Jesus in chapter 19 and his presence in chapter 6 could be separate events.
    Well all you have to do is read Matthew chapter 24.

    SIXTH SEAL (EVENTS AFTER THE 7TH SEAL)
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (Mt 24:29)

    SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)

  4. #154

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    Well all you have to do is read Matthew chapter 24.

    SIXTH SEAL (EVENTS AFTER THE 7TH SEAL)
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (Mt 24:29)

    SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
    And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)
    Those are not showing two separate events. Those are just two distinct phrases and ideas connected with a single event. Do you really think that Jesus' Coming will not be accompanied by the shaking of heavenly powers?

  5. #155

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    1 Thes 4:13-17
    "14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    I seem to have a completely different take on these often quoted words.

    In verse 14, Jesus will bring the spirits of the dead with him when he comes. When these spirits are with Jesus in heaven, they are given white robes as is found in several places in the Revelation.

    Verse 15 states that those who are alive on earth will not be with Jesus (married, have spiritual bodies) before those who have died.

    In verse 16, the dead in Christ rise out of their graves, not into the air. They will be visible. The dead bodies of these people will be united with their spirits when Jesus physically returns to earth. 1 Cor 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

    Some unspecified period of time later, verse 17 states that those who are alive when Jesus returns to earth, and those who rise out of their graves will be caught up into the air at the same time to forever be with Jesus. Since we will be like Jesus when he returns, those who are alive must also receive "spiritual bodies" at the time of the resurrection of the dead. All Christians at that time will be like Jesus at that time, which brings us to Rev. 19.

    In Rev. 19:7, the bride is "ready" when all Christians, have been given or have put on, spiritual bodies. We are married to Jesus when we are made alive like him. 1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    Rev. 19:11-21 is another story of the return of Jesus, not a story that continues from Rev. 19:1-10.

    It is not clear to me when we are caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, but it is after Jesus' return.

  6. #156

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    1 Thes 4:13-17
    "14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    I seem to have a completely different take on these often quoted words.

    In verse 14, Jesus will bring the spirits of the dead with him when he comes. When these spirits are with Jesus in heaven, they are given white robes as is found in several places in the Revelation.

    Verse 15 states that those who are alive on earth will not be with Jesus (married, have spiritual bodies) before those who have died.

    In verse 16, the dead in Christ rise out of their graves, not into the air. They will be visible. The dead bodies of these people will be united with their spirits when Jesus physically returns to earth. 1 Cor 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

    Some unspecified period of time later, verse 17 states that those who are alive when Jesus returns to earth, and those who rise out of their graves will be caught up into the air at the same time to forever be with Jesus. Since we will be like Jesus when he returns, those who are alive must also receive "spiritual bodies" at the time of the resurrection of the dead. All Christians at that time will be like Jesus at that time, which brings us to Rev. 19.

    In Rev. 19:7, the bride is "ready" when all Christians, have been given or have put on, spiritual bodies. We are married to Jesus when we are made alive like him. 1 Cor. 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

    Rev. 19:11-21 is another story of the return of Jesus, not a story that continues from Rev. 19:1-10.

    It is not clear to me when we are caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air, but it is after Jesus' return.
    I think you're over-complicating this. The same thing is being said throughout, that this is a glorification event--an immortalization event. Whereas it might be thought that living Christians will be given 1st shot at it at Christ's Coming, in reality it will be an all-together event, for both dead and living. It is virtually simultaneous, except that the dead have to be recalled 1st, so as not to be left out of the event. This is actually an instantaneous event, taking place in a split second.

    Yes, the spirits of the departed come back with Jesus. But it takes place simultaneous with their resurrection from the dead. Their resurrection does not take place through a resuscitation of corpses, but rather, through a recreation of bodies for the departed spirits, with which the departed spirits will return with Christ.

    The same will happen for the living saints. They will be caught up to Christ in heaven to receive new recreated bodies so that they too can return with Christ. An instantaneous, all together event for both living and dead saints. They return as fast as the living saints go up to heaven. The reception of glorified bodies by both departed spirits and living saints takes place at the same moment in time.

  7. #157
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    It has been said that the coming of Jesus will consist of 2 parts; a secret coming when Jesus will rapture the church, followed 7 years later by a physical coming when Jesus will judge the earth. In the book of Revelation, the rapture comes in the 4th chapter and the physical return occurs in the 19th chapter. The chapters between the rapture and the physical return of Jesus describe 7 years of increasingly great tribulation.

    However, as early as the 6th chapter, unbelievers are seen acknowledging and hiding from the presence of both God the Father and God the Son. In the same chapter, the earth is affected by the presence of God. This section describes a time where unbelievers and the earth itself testify to the presence of God, yet it is said that Jesus' physical return won't happen until a later time.

    I don't understand how the physical return of Jesus in chapter 19 and his presence in chapter 6 could be separate events.
    Let me give a simi-Pre-Wrath view of the coming of Christ and HIS APPEARING

    There is a sequence of events that will unfold right before His coming:

    1) Abomination of Desolation
    2) Great Tribulation
    3) AND THEN the Great Tribulation is cut short (maybe only months after the midpoint of the 70th Week of Daniel)
    4) At that moment (immediately after the Great Tribulation), the events of Rev 6:12-14 and Matt 24:29

    And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    5) then the sign of the Son of Man will appear, and Christ will appear on the Clouds of Heaven and that is where you see this happen: Revelation 6:15-17

    And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    And you payed attention and noted that the individuals KNOW WHO IS ON THE CLOUDS ABOVE! You probably also drew the conclusion that the wrath has not started yet. And this is correct.

    6) Christ Resurrects the Dead and Judges the righteous from the unrighteous
    7) the 144,000 are sealed
    8) the Righteous of the resurrected are given new bodies and raptured into the clouds with the Lord Rev 7: 9-17

    After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    Now this is the part that some can not grasp: HIS COMING continues all the way through Revelation even until He returns on the White Horse. His coming is not a single day event. It is a continuous event.

  8. #158

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Let me give a simi-Pre-Wrath view of the coming of Christ and HIS APPEARING

    There is a sequence of events that will unfold right before His coming:

    1) Abomination of Desolation
    2) Great Tribulation
    3) AND THEN the Great Tribulation is cut short (maybe only months after the midpoint of the 70th Week of Daniel)
    4) At that moment (immediately after the Great Tribulation), the events of Rev 6:12-14 and Matt 24:29
    In my view, the great tribulation begins at the midpoint of the 70th Week of Daniel. It will last 3.5 years as mentioned in several places in the Revelation. It would have continued past the 3.5 years if God did not intervene. The endpoint of the great tribulation is the earthquake of Rev. 6:12 which is also seen with the resurrection of the 144,000 in Rev. 11:12-13.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    5) then the sign of the Son of Man will appear, and Christ will appear on the Clouds of Heaven and that is where you see this happen: Revelation 6:15-17

    And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    And you payed attention and noted that the individuals KNOW WHO IS ON THE CLOUDS ABOVE! You probably also drew the conclusion that the wrath has not started yet. And this is correct.

    6) Christ Resurrects the Dead and Judges the righteous from the unrighteous
    7) the 144,000 are sealed
    8) the Righteous of the resurrected are given new bodies and raptured into the clouds with the Lord Rev 7: 9-17[/COLOR]
    The Revelation has 6 stories or paths that lead to the return of Jesus. The first path ends with chapter 6. The second path goes from Rev. 7:1 to Rev. 8:5. The sealing of the 144,000 is an event that comes before the period of great tribulation. The multitude are the spirits of those who died and went to heaven during the period of great tribulation. Their deaths are attributed to Rev. 12:17, where Satan turns his attentions away from Israel to Christians. These spirits will return with Jesus when he comes to put them into resurrected bodies.

    Rev.8:5 shows the return of God the Father. Rev. 4:5 teach that the lightnings, thunderings, and voices; come from the throne of God. When God comes, there will be an earthquake. This is the earthquake that removes the mountains and islands as shown in Rev. 6:14 and Rev. 16:18-20.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post

    Now this is the part that some can not grasp: HIS COMING continues all the way through Revelation even until He returns on the White Horse. His coming is not a single day event. It is a continuous event.
    The Wrath of God does come after the Period of Great Tribulation, the terms wrath and great tribulation are not interchangeable. The Wrath of God is specifically the 16th chapter of the Revelation. 6 of the 7 vials of wrath are poured out before both God the Father and God the Son come to earth. The resurrection/rapture can not occur before God comes, making pre-wrath a misnomer.

    For me, the parts of Revelation could not be fit into a single chronological story. It does fit into 6 chronological stories, making His Coming a shorter period of time.

  9. #159

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    In verse 16, the dead in Christ rise out of their graves, not into the air. They will be visible.
    Here's what I just posted in a different thread (different convo context, but relates here as well):

    [quoting]

    ["and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we [the still-living] shall be changed. For this corruptible [the dead] must put on incorruption, and this mortal [the still-living] must put on immortality." 1Cor15:52b-53 (see also 2Cor5:3-4 for the 'still-living' part [i.e. at our Rapture])]


    [end of quoting]
    ____________


    Jesus' own resurrection is our prototype, so to speak. His resurrection body had [has] unusual capabilities (like "and He vanished out of their sight" Luke 24:31b, and being unrecognizable to Mary Magdalene and then also the 2 on the Emmaus road [see Mk16:9; Jn20:18; Lk24:13-16; and Mk16:14]... and later that same evening, "when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled... came Jesus and stood in their midst..."). I don't believe "the dead in Christ" who will have been resurrected (at the time of our Rapture) will be "seen" by anyone before we are "caught up together with them in the clouds, to the meeting of the Lord in the air"... and I think this "vanishing/disappearance" will play into the deception that follows (2Th2:7b-8a then--> 2Th2:10-12).

    Even Jesus Himself didn't "appear" to everyone, or just anyone, but to carefully chosen witnesses (who would testify of what they had seen).




    I've mentioned before that there are studies out there showing Paul as a "type" of the [future] 144,000. And Paul was converted "when suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven..." (IOW, not by a human on earth witnessing to him).

  10. #160
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Here's what I just posted in a different thread (different convo context, but relates here as well):

    [quoting]

    ["and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we [the still-living] shall be changed. For this corruptible [the dead] must put on incorruption, and this mortal [the still-living] must put on immortality." 1Cor15:52b-53 (see also 2Cor5:3-4 for the 'still-living' part [i.e. at our Rapture])]


    [end of quoting]
    ____________


    Jesus' own resurrection is our prototype, so to speak. His resurrection body had [has] unusual capabilities (like "and He vanished out of their sight" Luke 24:31b, and being unrecognizable to Mary Magdalene and then also the 2 on the Emmaus road [see Mk16:9; Jn20:18; Lk24:13-16; and Mk16:14]... and later that same evening, "when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled... came Jesus and stood in their midst..."). I don't believe "the dead in Christ" who will have been resurrected (at the time of our Rapture) will be "seen" by anyone before we are "caught up together with them in the clouds, to the meeting of the Lord in the air"... and I think this "vanishing/disappearance" will play into the deception that follows (2Th2:7b-8a then--> 2Th2:10-12).

    Even Jesus Himself didn't "appear" to everyone, or just anyone, but to carefully chosen witnesses (who would testify of what they had seen).




    I've mentioned before that there are studies out there showing Paul as a "type" of the [future] 144,000. And Paul was converted "when suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven..." (IOW, not by a human on earth witnessing to him).
    If a Pretrib rapture were to occur, it would literally send this planet into immediate chaos. Planes falling out of the sky if the pilot was saved, thus gets raptured. Same causing countless automobile and bus accidents, etc. Yet the Bible doesn't depict anything like this in the least. Could it be because it's never going to happen to begin with, a PreTrib rapture?

  11. #161
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If a Pretrib rapture were to occur, it would literally send this planet into immediate chaos. Planes falling out of the sky if the pilot was saved, thus gets raptured. Same causing countless automobile and bus accidents, etc. Yet the Bible doesn't depict anything like this in the least. Could it be because it's never going to happen to begin with, a PreTrib rapture?
    So the pre-trib rapture is wrong because the bible doesn't read like a Left behind book? Really?

    Paul should have warned them about Planes Crashing and Automobile and bus accidents?

    This is what you need to be pre-trib?

  12. #162

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If a Pretrib rapture were to occur, it would literally send this planet into immediate chaos. Planes falling out of the sky if the pilot was saved, thus gets raptured. Same causing countless automobile and bus accidents, etc. Yet the Bible doesn't depict anything like this in the least. Could it be because it's never going to happen to begin with, a PreTrib rapture?
    I couldn't agree more. Pure fantasy! If the Scriptures ever indicated such a thing there would be some precedent for it. That being said there must be some kind of "Rapture" event, even for Postribbers like myself.

    The major difference here is that the Rapture event, as I see it, takes place within a second. But what of the Christian pilot who is steering a plane when Christ returns? I don't know. We do have Elijah going up in a Rapture. We do have Enoch going up in a Rapture. But what about an entire set of people across the earth called "born again Christians?" I can imagine they will be in every kind of situation imaginable.

    I've tried to think through this, but haven't really been successful. I've thought, well maybe this is WW3, a nuclear Armageddon, in which everybody is sort of hunkered down in the aftermath, a real life apocalypse! Maybe then planes won't even be up in the sky? But that's not very satisfying to me thus far. What do you think?

  13. #163

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So the pre-trib rapture is wrong because the bible doesn't read like a Left behind book? Really?

    Paul should have warned them about Planes Crashing and Automobile and bus accidents?

    This is what you need to be pre-trib?
    In all honesty, it does sound a little stupid. It doesn't sound God-like. But then again, I haven't figured it out for the Postrib position either!

  14. #164

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Here's what I just posted in a different thread (different convo context, but relates here as well):

    [quoting]

    ["and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we [the still-living] shall be changed. For this corruptible [the dead] must put on incorruption, and this mortal [the still-living] must put on immortality." 1Cor15:52b-53 (see also 2Cor5:3-4 for the 'still-living' part [i.e. at our Rapture])]


    [end of quoting]
    ____________


    Jesus' own resurrection is our prototype, so to speak. His resurrection body had [has] unusual capabilities (like "and He vanished out of their sight" Luke 24:31b, and being unrecognizable to Mary Magdalene and then also the 2 on the Emmaus road [see Mk16:9; Jn20:18; Lk24:13-16; and Mk16:14]... and later that same evening, "when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled... came Jesus and stood in their midst..."). I don't believe "the dead in Christ" who will have been resurrected (at the time of our Rapture) will be "seen" by anyone before we are "caught up together with them in the clouds, to the meeting of the Lord in the air"... and I think this "vanishing/disappearance" will play into the deception that follows (2Th2:7b-8a then--> 2Th2:10-12).

    Even Jesus Himself didn't "appear" to everyone, or just anyone, but to carefully chosen witnesses (who would testify of what they had seen).




    I've mentioned before that there are studies out there showing Paul as a "type" of the [future] 144,000. And Paul was converted "when suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven..." (IOW, not by a human on earth witnessing to him).
    I read the same verses and picture Matt. 27:51-53.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    There may also be 1,000 years between 1 Thes. 4:16 when bodies are raised until 1 Thes. 4:17 when we are caught up into the clouds. I can't seem to make up my mind about this.

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