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Thread: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

  1. #16

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    In Chap 6 Jesus is still in Heaven, He still has to Judge the host of Heaven in Heaven, then He comes down to earth to Judge the Kings of the Earth.
    The kings of the earth are being judged in Rev 6.
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Isaiah 34:4-5
    And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
    Doesn't the 6th seal describe the judgment of the host of heaven?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    IOW we don't believe Jesus leaves heaven after the 6th seal because he is still in heaven to open the 7th seal. He judges the Earth from Heaven.
    I don't know what IOW means. Heaven departs as a scroll in Rev. 6:14. Is Jesus still in heaven at this point, or has he relocated to earth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Also see 2 Thes 1:7-8

    Jesus is revealed from Heaven with "Fire".
    The fact that Jesus is revealed and not concealed shows that there has been a change of heaven. There is no longer doubt about Jesus and the earth quakes.

  2. #17
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    The kings of the earth are being judged in Rev 6.
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    I don't undestand you believe Them hiding in dens is them being Judged?


    Clearly Rev 19 is the judgment of the Kings of the Earth.

    Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave,d both small and great.” 19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

    Notice the kings here are not hiding but instead gathered to make war



    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Doesn't the 6th seal describe the judgment of the host of heaven?
    The 6th seal begins the judgment of the Host of Heaven this is also recounted in Rev 12:2-12.

    First notice the stars are Cast down. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. 12:4

    Then Comes the War 12:7

    Afterwards the Devil and his Hordes land on Earth. 12:9

    Same thing in Rev 5-11, At the 6th seal they are cast down and then you can see the trumpet judgments as the War in Heaven since clearly heavenly bodies are being thrown down and effected see trumpets 1-5



    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I don't know what IOW means.
    In other words.

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Heaven departs as a scroll in Rev. 6:14. Is Jesus still in heaven at this point, or has he relocated to earth?
    According to Rev 8.1 he is clearly still in Heaven. And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.



    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    The fact that Jesus is revealed and not concealed shows that there has been a change of heaven. There is no longer doubt about Jesus and the earth quakes.
    Correct! The Change is that Jesus the lamb has went from Sitting at the right hand of God - to Standing to Judge the heavens and the Earth. See Psalms 110

  3. #18
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I understand the pre-trib view about the rapture in chapter 4 and the physical appearance in chapter 19. I don't understand the pre-trib view on his appearance in chapter 6? Is His presence in the clouds at this point or does He appear to all at this point?
    The scene in Chapter 4 is heaven, before our Lord starts His journey to deal with the earth (v.2). Chapter 6 is the start of the opening of the Seals and the beginning of God's wrath (v.17).

    Since our Lord Jesus is resurrected, He is a physical Man and His appearance is ALWAYS physical - whether in heaven at the right hand of God, or in the clouds to meet the Church, or on the earth.

  4. #19
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    It has been said that the coming of Jesus will consist of 2 parts; a secret coming when Jesus will rapture the church, followed 7 years later by a physical coming when Jesus will judge the earth. In the book of Revelation, the rapture comes in the 4th chapter and the physical return occurs in the 19th chapter. The chapters between the rapture and the physical return of Jesus describe 7 years of increasingly great tribulation.

    However, as early as the 6th chapter, unbelievers are seen acknowledging and hiding from the presence of both God the Father and God the Son. In the same chapter, the earth is affected by the presence of God. This section describes a time where unbelievers and the earth itself testify to the presence of God, yet it is said that Jesus' physical return won't happen until a later time.

    I don't understand how the physical return of Jesus in chapter 19 and his presence in chapter 6 could be separate events.
    Exactly! Well said. The entire description of Rev 6 is so obviously THE second coming/day of the Lord that it's very misinterpretation is a good way to tell who takes the bible seriously and who doesn't. As little children we accept the wording at face value with basic logic behind reading the verses:

    11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.

    12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

    15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


    Will there be TWO great earthquakes? TWICE the leaders of earth go running and hiding from the presence of God? TWICE the sky rolls like a scroll? People twist and manipulate the scriptures to suit their doctrine yet it is plain to see how Rev 6:12-17 refers to the one and only second coming. Do not let ANYONE twist you away from your accurate and simple understanding of the scriptures.

  5. #20
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    According to Rev 8.1 he is clearly still in Heaven. And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
    A lot of the misunderstanding of the 7 seals/7 trumpets is the fact that a lot of people do not realise that the chapter break was put in the wrong place.

    Chapter 6, by its very wording points to the second coming where there is a great harm to the sea and the land (earthquake, EVERY mountain and island moved) and everyone on earth hides from the presence of God.
    Chapter 7 is going BACK IN TIME, this chapter is saying, hey just wait, before we harm the sea and the land , let's seal the twelve tribes and rapture the saints from the great tribulation.
    THEN chapter 8 VERSE 1 goes back to the 7th seal, everything is complete , there is silence in heaven. Completion. END OF CHAPTER/END OF VISION

    NEW VISION starts at Chapter 8:2
    This vision also deals with the events leading up to the second coming.
    2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. 6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them. 7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

    So the position of the chapter break at 8:1 instead of 8:2 is very confusing to folk.

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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    I think some of us are mixing up two separate things, and making them one, where scripture does not. The Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is ONE thing, and the Day of the Lord is ANOTHER. One concerns His presence and revealing ("Parousia" and "Apokalypsus"), and the other concerns His judgement on the ungodly. Even here, scripture makes a difference between "the Day of the Lord", which is connection with judging the earth, and "the Day of Jesus Christ", which is in connection with judging the Church. Revelation Chapter 6 deals with "the Day of the Lord" - judgment on the ungodly, but does not deal with "the Day of Jesus Christ", or "the Second Coming".

  7. #22
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think some of us are mixing up two separate things, and making them one, where scripture does not. The Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ is ONE thing, and the Day of the Lord is ANOTHER. One concerns His presence and revealing ("Parousia" and "Apokalypsus"), and the other concerns His judgement on the ungodly. Even here, scripture makes a difference between "the Day of the Lord", which is connection with judging the earth, and "the Day of Jesus Christ", which is in connection with judging the Church. Revelation Chapter 6 deals with "the Day of the Lord" - judgment on the ungodly, but does not deal with "the Day of Jesus Christ", or "the Second Coming".
    People have to introduce theories based on semantics when the scriptures contradict their view. If we see the Lord as Christ, and the day of the Lord as the same as the day of Christ, the same as the second coming. ALL one specific day. Then this fits well with all scripture. Have you any specific verse that would deny that the rapture is the same day as the resurrection, which is the same day as the day of Christ, which is the same day as the second coming, which is the same day as the day of the Lord?

    Sure it's all well and good to have a complicated view, but can you find scriptural fault with the simpler view is my question?

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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    As a pre-tribber, I believe Revelation 5 is when Jesus "stands to judge". [at the opening of the First Seal; the 6th Seal is after that point in time, but the 6th Seal is well before the events of Rev19 (His 2nd Coming to the earth) time-wise]



    [see also Isa 3:13]
    You mean stands to bring Judgment upon the World as a collective, not to set up the Judgment against men, we know they will be Judged after the 1000 year reign. Just a point of clarification.

    Revelation chapter 19 covers the full Seven Years after the Rapture however, it begins with the People being there, then the Marriage, then the Return that ends in the Marriage Supper on earth at Armageddon.

    To answer the OP, Jesus has returned many times, he returned after telling Mary not to "Touch him" for he had not yet ascended to the Father, then 8 days later he told Thomas the Doubter to thrust his hands/fingers into his wounds. Jesus calling the Church to meet him in the air is not Returning to earth however, as if it mattered anyway. Nowhere is Jesus coming after the Tribulation described as his "Second Coming".

    Without a pre-trib Rapture, there can be no Rev. ch. 19.

  9. #24

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't know either brother. When i first started Studying the second coming everyone pointed to Matthew 24:31 as the "event" it wasn't till later that i found out that The olive discourse spans Matthew 24-25 and doesn't end till the beginning of Matthew 26. Then i started to see the pattern, the whole coming in the Clouds is a different event then his actual second coming. Personally i didn't know how to wrap my mind around this but it seems consistent thoughout the bible.

    What i mean is Zech 12:10 seems to be a different event then Zech 14:3-5

    Matthew 24:31 seems to be a different event then Matthew 25:31

    Rev 14:14-16 seems to be different then Rev 19:11.

    I didn't really understand how this made sense but personally i understand it all thru the lense of Daniel 7:13-14. Where the "Son of Man"(Used in Matthew 24 and Rev 14:14-16) goes before God the father with the clouds of Heaven, and afterwards comes to earth to establish his Kingdom.

    This to me made me have to reevaluate how i understand the second coming, and specific passages that Jesus says like this one And he said to him, John 1:51 “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

    So like you i wanted to see if there was a pattern between the stories, my conclusion is that Rev 5-11 tells the same story as Rev 12-18.

    My main problem was to find a Corolation between Rev 14:14 somewhere in Rev 5-11 and the answer to me is Rev 10. I believe in Rev 10 the Angel that comes down is Jesus as the "Son of Man" notice he has the "scroll open" in his hand!!. I mean unless there is new scroll introduced into the story between the 7th seal being opened and chap 10 idk why Jesus would have possible given up the scroll to this angel at some point. This Angel is not yet the King of Kings tho, this happens after he is Crowned at the 7th trumpet! Which of Course is the next chapter 11. After Jesus is crowned King of Kings then he comes back to make war with the Beast.

    Notice what is said in this passage Rev 17:These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”

    The Lamb only fights the AC after he is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Which is why in Rev 19 we see him with Many Crowns in contrast to Rev 14:14 where he has only one Crown.

    Personally i don't know if i'm right, this is just how i've come to understand the scriptures lately. My only point is would you consider Matthew 24:31 or Matthew 25:31 as the second coming? Or do like most we assume this is the same moment and Rev 14 is the same as Rev 19 Zech 12 is the same as Zech 14 ect..
    There are also a BUNCH of passages of the Lord Coming in the Clouds, but this to me seems to be different the Jesus coming with all his Saints and the army of Heaven. I used to think these events was the same now i'm not sure.
    Everyone see's Jesus coming in the Clouds the question is where is he going! Take Rev 14:14-16 for example after the harvest where do you believe the Son of Man goes next?? Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    I just want to go on record and say i don't belive either of these events involve a rapture
    Great post! It's going to take some time to sift through.

  10. #25

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't undestand you believe Them hiding in dens is them being Judged?


    Clearly Rev 19 is the judgment of the Kings of the Earth.

    Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave,d both small and great.” 19And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

    Notice the kings here are not hiding but instead gathered to make war
    I think its likely that they gathered to make war, but they hid after they were confronted with God. Their gathering to fight is pictured in Rev. 16:14.
    For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    Their confrontation with God as pictured in Rev. 16:18-21 is likely what causes them to hide.
    18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
    20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
    21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    The 6th seal begins the judgment of the Host of Heaven this is also recounted in Rev 12:2-12.

    First notice the stars are Cast down. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. 12:4

    Then Comes the War 12:7

    Afterwards the Devil and his Hordes land on Earth. 12:9

    Same thing in Rev 5-11, At the 6th seal they are cast down and then you can see the trumpet judgments as the War in Heaven since clearly heavenly bodies are being thrown down and effected see trumpets 1-5
    The signs of the 6th seal are the same as those which occur immediately after the great tribulation. Matt. 24:29 These signs appear after the war in heaven.
    29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    The great tribulation begins after the stars picturing Satan and his angels have been cast out of heaven. This is when there is woe upon the earth as pictured in Rev. 8:13-9:1 and Rev. 12:12-14.
    8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
    9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
    14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    In other words.

    According to Rev 8.1 he is clearly still in Heaven. And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
    I believe the seals and the events associated with them are in chronological order. IOW the 7th seal could not start before the 6th. However, I do not believe that all of the events of the 6th seal have to occur before the 7th seal is opened. Chronologically, the 7th seal could have started after the great earthquake of Rev. 6:12, but before the sun became black.

    I believe the events for the vision that begins in Rev. 7, start before the period of great tribulation and end with Rev. 8:5 which will be the same time as Rev 6 ends.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct! The Change is that Jesus the lamb has went from Sitting at the right hand of God - to Standing to Judge the heavens and the Earth. See Psalms 110
    I just don't know how to picture this in my mind. When heaven departs as a scroll, does it stay shut or does it open back up? Does all the host of heaven as pictured in Rev 4 come to earth when heaven departs? Is a new heaven created at this point?

  11. #26

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    You mean stands to bring Judgment upon the World as a collective, not to set up the Judgment against men, we know they will be Judged after the 1000 year reign. Just a point of clarification.

    Revelation chapter 19 covers the full Seven Years after the Rapture however, it begins with the People being there, then the Marriage, then the Return that ends in the Marriage Supper on earth at Armageddon.

    To answer the OP, Jesus has returned many times, he returned after telling Mary not to "Touch him" for he had not yet ascended to the Father, then 8 days later he told Thomas the Doubter to thrust his hands/fingers into his wounds. Jesus calling the Church to meet him in the air is nit Returning to earth however, as if it mattered anyway. Nowhere is Jesus coming after the Tribulation described as his "Second Coming".

    Without a pre-trib Rapture, there can be no Rev. ch. 19.
    Between the rapture of chapter 4 and the second coming of chapter 19 is verse 6:16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    What are these people hiding from and when are they hiding?

  12. #27

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Between the rapture of chapter 4 and the second coming of chapter 19 is verse 6:16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    What are these people hiding from and when are they hiding?
    I had added to my post #11 the other day, perhaps you didn't see it (regarding the effects of the 2nd Seal Wars, of which I believe Ezekiel 38 is a part):

    [quoting that post addition]

    "I see the following passage to be a part of what takes place during the 2nd Seal Wars [before the 6th Seal; and after the 1st Seal, of course]

    18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.
    19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
    20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
    21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
    22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
    23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the Lord. - Ezek38:18-23"


    ____________

    [Ezekiel 39:12 goes on to tell of the "seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land."]

  13. #28

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The scene in Chapter 4 is heaven, before our Lord starts His journey to deal with the earth (v.2). Chapter 6 is the start of the opening of the Seals and the beginning of God's wrath (v.17).

    Since our Lord Jesus is resurrected, He is a physical Man and His appearance is ALWAYS physical - whether in heaven at the right hand of God, or in the clouds to meet the Church, or on the earth.
    Great, the appearance of Jesus is always physical. Isn't that appearance supposed to be kept secret until Rev 19? Aren't the people hiding from the physical appearance of Jesus in Rev 6?

    What is the wrath of God doing in chapter 6? Aren't the 7 vials the wrath of God, and aren't they the 7 last plagues? Rev. 15:1
    And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

  14. #29
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    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Is Revelation 19 actually the second coming?

    There is a general feeling that Revelation chapter 19 is the second coming when Jesus literally rides down from heaven on his white horse and destroys all of his enemies with His armies but this is not what the text actually says.

    When Jesus comes back it will be with the angles not the church.

    Matthew 25:31
    "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

    There are three messages in this chapter which were for the seven churches who Revelation was written to it was not written to us but it is also for us.

    The first message in the chapter is the threefold Halleluiah victory cries over mystery Babylon (who I believe to represent Jerusalem which was destroyed in 70AD) being destroyed. God had judged mystery Babylon as she was destroyed by the beast (who I believe to represent Rome in the first century) for Gods purpose.

    The text says that God has avenged his servants who were persecuted and killed by mystery Babylon and we know that Israel was the first to persecute the church and had also persecuted and killed many prophets in the times of the Old Testament. Only Israel killed both the prophets and the saints.

    Revelation 18 the destruction of mystery Babylon

    Rev 18:20
    20“Rejoice over her, you heavens!
    Rejoice, you people of God!
    Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
    For God has judged her
    with the judgement she imposed on you.”

    Rev18:24
    24In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

    Which takes us back to what Jesus said about Jerusalem in

    Matthew 23:33-38
    33“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
    37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate.



    The next message in Revelation 19 is that the time has come for the wedding supper of the lamb and we the bride of the lamb have made our self ready. Revelation shows the ending of Gods relationship between earthly Jerusalem and the new marriage of the lamb to the spiritual Jerusalem the church.

    The last message of chapter 19 is the destruction of the beast who destroyed mystery Babylon. John sees heaven opened wide and what he sees is what is happening up in heaven not what happens on earth. It never once mentions Jesus or His armies coming to the earth only that He is seen riding a white horse in victory up in heaven with the armies following him as He is king of kings and lord of lords.

    When John saw heaven opened in chapter 21 he sees the Holy City come down out of heaven but it doesn't say that Jesus comes down out of heaven in chapter 19. There are other times in Revelation mentioning things like angels coming down from heaven but not in this case in chapter 19. There is no battle it doesn't mention the armies of heaven fighting there are no weapons accept the sword out of Jesus' mouth which is symbolic for His word which is all powerful and all He needs its his word that defeats all His enemies not any of our fighting.

    Chapter 19 represents an ever ongoing event of Jesus defeating all of his enemies over all time with His word as they all rise and fall but Jesus still reigns. It states that the birds will eat the flesh of all people great and small free and slave this is not a one time event the birds eating the flesh is not literal but showing that all who oppose God will die.

    The only two who are judged at this time are the beast and the false prophet as I believe the beast to be a demon in control of Rome and its leaders during the first century and the false prophet to be a demon in control of apostate Israel in the first century. They can't be people as all people will be judged before being cast to hell on the judgement day but these two are cast into hell alive just like Satan is in the next chapter who we know is a demon.

    I believe that it is not the second coming of Jesus in Revelation chapter 19 but that it is a symbolic battle of Jesus overcoming all of His enemies as He will always king of kings and lord of lords.

    The purpose of chapter 19 is the messages of the wedding of the church to the lamb and of the defeat of Jesus' enemies mystery Babylon, the beast and the false prophet not Jesus fighting a bloody battle on earth.

  15. #30

    Re: 2 Comings of Jesus, many appearances?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    A lot of the misunderstanding of the 7 seals/7 trumpets is the fact that a lot of people do not realise that the chapter break was put in the wrong place.

    Chapter 6, by its very wording points to the second coming where there is a great harm to the sea and the land (earthquake, EVERY mountain and island moved) and everyone on earth hides from the presence of God.
    Chapter 7 is going BACK IN TIME, this chapter is saying, hey just wait, before we harm the sea and the land , let's seal the twelve tribes and rapture the saints from the great tribulation.
    THEN chapter 8 VERSE 1 goes back to the 7th seal, everything is complete , there is silence in heaven. Completion. END OF CHAPTER/END OF VISION

    NEW VISION starts at Chapter 8:2
    This vision also deals with the events leading up to the second coming.
    2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. 6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them. 7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.

    So the position of the chapter break at 8:1 instead of 8:2 is very confusing to folk.
    We are very close on this. The only differences are my view that the saints in heaven were resurrected as opposed to raptured, and I end the break for this set of visions at 8:5, not 8:2. I do believe 8:2 fits with the trumpet visions, so these visions overlap as written.

    Rev 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

    Compare this verse with Rev 11:19 and Rev 16:18 which I believe come at or near the end of other sets of visions.

    Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

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