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Thread: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

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    The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    It's neither. It is or was, Christ Jesus' Last Passover-Suffering.





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    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn View Post
    The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    It's neither. It is or was, Christ Jesus' Last Passover-Suffering.
    Matthew 12.40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


    This seems to speak of the grave.

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    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn View Post
    [COLOR=#3E3E3E]The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    It's neither. It is or was, Christ Jesus' Last Passover-Suffering.
    The heart of the earth is the heart of the earth. It is what is there that counts - Hades, the place of the souls of dead men. If you string these three scriptures together, which all speak of Christ's death, where He went and how long He stayed there, a grade-school student will tell that our Lord Jesus died, descended, went to Hades, which, if He "descended", was in the heart of the earth, but that God did not allow Him to stay there and raised Him after three days in Hades in the heart of the earth.

    Ephesians 4:9-10;
    9 "(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended FIRST into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

    Matthew 12:40;
    40 "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
    Acts 2:24-27;
    24 "Whom God hath raised UP, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
    25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
    26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
    27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in HADES, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

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    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Matthew 12.40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


    This seems to speak of the grave.
    Or maybe it seems to speak of what's in the mind of the reader or writer?

    "HEART of the earth" is figurative for or of heart-felt or "passionate" experience, alive, conscious, aware, knowingly -- 'the Passion of Christ' BEFORE He died or his body was buried.

    Nag een : Dit was nag : Uitgegaan [Eksodus 12:12,42]

    Johannes 13:30,31
    30 Nadat hy dan die brood gevat het, het daardie een
    λαβὼν οὖν τὸ ψωμίον ἐκεῖνος
    He then having received the sop

    dadelik uitgegaan: EN DIT WAS NAG.
    ἐξῆλθεν εὐθύς ἦν δὲ νύξ.
    went immediately out: and it was night.

    31 Toe hy dan uitgegaan het, het Jesus gespreek:
    Ὅτε οὖν ἐξῆλθεν, λέγει Ἰησοῦς
    Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said,

    NOU IS DIE SEUN VAN DIE MENS VERHEERLIK
    Νῦν ἐδοξάσθη ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου,
    NOW IS THE SON OF MAN GLORIFIED,

    EN IS GOD IN HOM, VERHEERLIK.
    καὶ ὁ Θεὸς ἐδοξάσθη ἐν αὐτῷ
    AND GOD IS GLORIFIED IN HIM.

    Markus 14:26
    En hulle het n lied gesing en uitgegaan na die Olyfberg.
    Καὶ ὑμνήσαντες ἐξῆλθον εἰς τὸ ὄρος τῶν ἐλαιῶν.
    when they had sung a hymn, they went out unto the mount of Olives.

    Matteus 26:30
    En na die sing van n loflied het hulle uitgegaan na die Olyfberg.
    Καὶ ὑμνήσαντες ἐξῆλθον εἰς τὸ ὄρος τῶν ἐλαιῶν.
    when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

    Nag een : Die Uur Het Gekom

    Johannes 17:1
    Dit het Jesus gespreek, en Hy het sy o opgehef
    Ταῦτα ἐλάλησεν Ἰησοῦς, καὶ ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ
    These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven,

    na die hemel en ges: Vader, DIE UUR HET GEKOM:
    εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν εἶπεν Πάτερ, ἐλήλυθεν ἡ ὥρα
    and said, Father, THE HOUR IS COME

    verheerlik U Seun sodat U Seun U ook kan verheerlik.
    δόξασόν σου τὸν Υἱόν, ἵνα ὁ Υἱὸς δοξάσῃ σέ
    glorify they Son that thy Son also may glorify thee.

    Johannes 13:31b,32
    Nou word die Seun van die Mens verheerlik, en God
    Νῦν ἐδοξάσθη ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου, καὶ ὁ Θεὸς
    Now is the Son of man glorified, and God

    word verheerlik in Hom. 32 As God in Hom verheerlik word,
    ἐδοξάσθη ἐν αὐτῷ 32 εἰ ὁ Θεὸς ἐδοξάσθη ἐν αὐτῷ,
    is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in Him

    sal God Hom verheerlik in Hom. Hy sal Hom n verheerlik.
    καὶ ὁ Θεὸς δοξάσει αὐτὸν ἐν αὑτῷ, καὶ εὐθὺς δοξάσει αὐτόν.
    God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

    Nag een : Volgelinge Versoek Jesus

    Johannes 13:30,31,33-38
    Toe daardie een (Judas) dan die brood geneem het,
    λαβὼν οὖν τὸ ψωμίον ἐκεῖνος
    He then (Judas,) having received the sop,

    het hy dadelik uitgegaan: En dit was NAG.
    ἐξῆλθεν εὐθύς ἦν δὲ νύξ. (Eksodus 12:8,12,41,42 (ek gehs Aiguptou Nuktos)
    went immediately out: and it was NIGHT

    31a En toe hy uitgegaan het, s Jesus:
    Ὅτε οὖν ἐξῆλθε, λέγει ὁ Ἰησοῦς
    Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said,

    33 Kinders, nog net n klein tydjie is Ek by julle.
    τεκνία, ἔτι μικρὸν μεθ ὑμῶν εἰμι
    Little children, yet a little while I am with you.

    Julle sal My soek; en soos Ek vir die Jode ges het,
    ζητήσετέ με, καὶ καθὼς εἶπον τοῖς Ἰουδαίοις ὅτι
    Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews,

    s Ek nou vir julle, waar Ek heengaan, kan julle nie kom nie
    καὶ ὑμῖν λέγω ἄρτι. Ὅπου ἐγὼ ὑπάγω ὑμεῖς οὐ δύνασθε ἐλθεῖν,
    so now I say unto you, whither I go, ye cannot come;

    34 n Nuwe Gebod gee Ek julle: dat julle mekaar moet lief h
    ἐντολὴν καινὴν δίδωμι ὑμῖν, ἵνα ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους,
    A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another;

    dat soos Ek julle liefgehad het, julle ook mekaar sal liefh.
    καθὼς ἠγάπησα ὑμᾶς ἵνα καὶ ὑμεῖς ἀγαπᾶτε ἀλλήλους.
    as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    35 Hieraan sal almal weet dat julle My dissipels is:
    ἐν τούτῳ γνώσονται πάντες ὅτι ἐμοὶ μαθηταί ἐστε,
    By this shall all know that ye are my disciples,

    as julle liefde het onder mekaar.
    ἐὰν ἀγάπην ἔχητε ἐν ἀλλήλοις.
    if ye have love one to another.

    36 Simon Petrus vra Hom: Here, waarheen gaan U?
    Λέγει αὐτῷ Σίμων Πέτρος Κύριε, ποῦ ὑπάγεις;
    Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou?

    Jesus het verduidelik: Waar Ek heengaan,
    ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς Ὅπου ὑπάγω
    Jesus answered him, Whither I go,

    sal jy My nie nou kan volg nie; maar jy sl, lter, volg!
    οὐ δύνασαί μοι νῦν ἀκολουθῆσαι, ἀκολουθήσεις δὲ ὕστερον.
    thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

    37 Petrus s vir Hom: Here, Hoekom kan ek U nie
    λέγει αὐτῷ Πέτρος Κύριε, διὰ τί οὐ δύναμαί σοι
    Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I

    nou al volg nie? My siel sal ek om U onthalwe neerl!
    ἀκολουθῆσαι ἄρτι; τὴν ψυχήν μου ὑπὲρ σοῦ θήσω.
    now follow thee? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

    38 Jesus het geantwoord: Sal jy jou lewe vir M, offer?!
    (ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ) ἀποκρίνεται Ἰησοῦς Τὴν ψυχήν σου ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ θήσεις;
    Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake?

    Voorwaar, voorwaar Ek s vir jou, die haan sal nog nie
    ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω σοι, οὐ μὴ ἀλέκτωρ
    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not

    gekraai het nie of jy sal My driemaal verlon het!
    φωνήσῃ ἕως οὗ ἀρνήσῃ (ἀπαρνήσῃ) με τρίς.
    crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.


    ...Johannes 14 tot 17...

    Nag een : Verdriet Vergeet Jesus [Genesis 37:35; 42:38]

    Markus 14:32-41a
    Toe kom hulle in n tuin met die naam Getsemane.
    Καὶ ἔρχονται εἰς χωρίον οὗ τὸ ὄνομα Γεθσημανεί (Γεθσημανῆ),
    And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane:

    En (Jesus) s vir sy dissipels: Sit julle hier terwyl Ek gaan bid.
    καὶ λέγει τοῖς μαθηταῖς (αὐτοῦ) Καθίσατε ὧδε ἕως προσεύξωμαι.
    and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here while I shall pray.

    33 Toe neem Hy Petrus en Jakobus en Johannes saam met Hom
    καὶ παραλαμβάνει τὸν Πέτρον καὶ Ἰάκωβον καὶ Ἰωάνην μετ αὐτοῦ,
    And he taketh with him Peter and James and John,

    en begin erg ontsteld en terneergedruk raak.
    καὶ ἤρξατο ἐκθαμβεῖσθαι καὶ ἀδημονεῖν,
    and began to be sore perplexed, and distressed;

    34 En Hy s vir hulle: My siel is smartvol tot die dood toe.
    καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς Περίλυπός ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου ἕως θανάτου
    And he saith unto them, exceeding unto death sorrowful is My soul:

    Bly julle hier en waak!
    μείνατε ὧδε καὶ γρηγορεῖτε.
    tarry ye here, and watch.

    35 Hy gaan bietjie aan en val op die grond
    καὶ προελθὼν μικρὸν ἔπιπτεν (ἔπεσεν) ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς,
    And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground,

    en bid dat as dit moontlik is die uur by Hom mog verbykom.
    καὶ προσηύχετο ἵνα εἰ δυνατόν ἐστιν παρέλθῃ ἀπ αὐτοῦ ἡ ὥρα,
    and prayed that, if ... possible his hour might come [pass].
    [ἀπὁ at Mk7:4; 15:38,40 Mt13:35; in 1Jn1:1 Lk16:30; 17:29
    Ro11:25 Hb12:25 Mk10:20 2Thes3:3; on Rv21:13; of Acts20:26 Mk12:2]

    36 En Hy s: My Vader o Vader, alles is moontlik vir U: Bring
    καὶ ἔλεγεν Ἀββᾶ ὁ Πατήρ, πάντα δυνατά σοι παρένεγκε
    And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take

    hierdie beker by my aan; maar nie wat Ek nie, maar U wil!
    τὸ ποτήριον τοῦτο ἀπ ἐμοῦ ἀλλ οὐ τί ἐγὼ θέλω ἀλλὰ τί σύ.
    away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

    37 Toe Hy (van gebed terug-) kom en hulle aan die slaap vind,
    καὶ καὶ ἔρχεται καὶ εὑρίσκει αὐτοὺς καθεύδοντας,
    And he cometh and findeth them sleeping,

    vra Hy Petrus: Simon, slaap jy? Kon jy nie een uur waak nie?
    καὶ λέγει τῷ Πέτρῳ Σίμων, καθεύδεις; οὐκ ἴσχυσας μίαν ὥραν γρηγορῆσαι;
    and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?

    38 Waak en bid dat julle nie in versoeking kom nie!
    γρηγορεῖτε καὶ προσεύχεσθε, ἵνα μὴ (εἰσ) ἔλθητε εἰς πειρασμόν
    Watch ye and pray lest ye enter into temptation.

    Die gees is wel gewillig, maar die vlees is swak.
    τὸ μὲν πνεῦμα πρόθυμον, ἡ δὲ σὰρξ ἀσθενής.
    The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.

    39 Hy het toe weer gaan bid, dieselfde gebed se woorde.
    καὶ πάλιν ἀπελθὼν προσηύξατο τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπών.
    And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.

    40 En Hy het teruggekom en hulle weer, aan die slaap gekry,
    καὶ πάλιν ἐλθὼν (ὑποστρέψας) εὗρεν αὐτοὺς καθεύδοντας,
    And when he returned, he found them asleep again,

    want hulle o was swaar* van die verdriet [*oinohi bebarehotes bleary]
    ἦσαν γὰρ αὐτῶν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ καταβαρυνόμενοι,
    (for their eyes were heavy,)

    sodat hulle nie geweet het wt om Hom te antwoord nie.
    καὶ οὐκ ᾔδεισαν τί ἀποκριθῶσιν αὐτῷ.
    neither wist they what to answer him.

    14:41a En Jesus kom die derde keer en s vir hulle:
    καὶ ἔρχεται τὸ τρίτον καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς
    And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them,

    Slaap voort en rus uit, dis genoeg!
    Καθεύδετε τὸ λοιπὸν καὶ ἀναπαύεσθε ἀπέχει
    Sleep on now and take your rest; it is enough.

    Matteus 26:36-45
    Toe gaan Jesus met hulle na n plek bekend as Getsemane.
    Τότε ἔρχεται μετ αὐτῶν ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἰς χωρίον λεγόμενον Γεθσημανεί,
    Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane.

    En Jesus s vir die dissipels: Sit julle hier totdat
    καὶ λέγει τοῖς μαθηταῖς Καθίσατε αὐτοῦ ἕως οὗ
    And he saith unto the disciples: Sit ye here while

    Ek daar oorkant gaan bid het.
    ἀπελθὼν ἐκεῖ προσεύξωμαι.
    I go and pray yonder.

    37 Toe vat Hy Petrus en Jakobus en Johannes saam met Hom.
    καὶ παραλαβὼν τὸν Πέτρον καὶ τοὺς δύο υἱοὺς Ζεβεδαίου
    And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee,

    Hy het begin bedroef en benoud raak.
    (καὶ) ἤρξατο λυπεῖσθαι καὶ ἀδημονεῖν.
    and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.

    38 Toe s Jesus vir hulle: My siel is oorvol smart
    τότε λέγει αὐτοῖς Περίλυπός ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου
    Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful,

    tot die dood toe. Bly julle hier en waak saam met My!
    ἕως θανάτου μείνατε ὧδε καὶ γρηγορεῖτε μετ ἐμοῦ.
    even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

    39 Toe gaan Hy bietjie verder en val neer op sy aangesig
    καὶ προελθὼν μικρὸν ἔπεσεν (ἔπιπτεν) ἐπὶ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ
    And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, [Genesis 37:35; 42:38]

    en s terwyl Hy bid, My Vader, as dit moontlik is,
    προσευχόμενος καὶ λέγων Πάτερ μου, εἰ δυνατόν ἐστιν,
    and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible,

    laat hierdie beker by My verbykom!
    παρελθάτω (παρελθέτω) ἀπ ἐμοῦ τὸ ποτήριον τοῦτο
    let this cup come by me / at me pass.

    Slegs, nie soos Ek nie, maar soos U wil!
    πλὴν οὐχ ὡς ἐγὼ θέλω ἀλλ ὡς σύ.
    nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    40 Toe kom Hy by die dissipels en vind hulle aan die slaap.
    καὶ ἔρχεται πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς καὶ εὑρίσκει αὐτοὺς καθεύδοντας,
    And he cometh unto his disciples, and findeth them asleep,

    En Hy s vir Petrus: Hoekom was julle nie instaat om
    καὶ λέγει τῷ Πέτρῳ Οὕτως οὐκ ἰσχύσατε
    and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch

    n uur wakker te bly saam met My nie?
    μίαν ὥραν γρηγορῆσαι μετ ἐμοῦ;
    with me one hour?

    41 Waak dan en bid dat julle nie in versoeking kom nie:
    γρηγορεῖτε καὶ προσεύχεσθε, ἵνα μὴ εἰσέλθητε εἰς πειρασμόν
    Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation.

    want die gees is wel gewillig, maar die vlees (is) swak.
    τὸ μὲν πνεῦμα πρόθυμον, ἡ δὲ σὰρξ ἀσθενής.
    the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    42 Wr, vir die tweede keer, het Hy eenkant gegaan en gebid en ges:
    πάλιν ἐκ δευτέρου ἀπελθὼν προσηύξατο λέγων
    He went again the second time, and prayed, saying,

    My Vader, aangesien hierdie beker nie by My kan verbygaan
    Πάτερ μου, εἰ οὐ δύναται τοῦτο (τὸ ποτήριον) παρελθεῖν
    O my Father, if this cup may not come my way

    anders as dat Ek dit drink nie: Laat U wil geskied!

    ἐὰν μὴ αὐτὸ πίω, γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου.
    except I drink it, thy will be done.

    43 En toe Hy terugkom, vind Hy hulle l weer en slaap,
    καὶ ἐλθὼν πάλιν εὗρεν αὐτοὺς καθεύδοντας,
    And he came and found them asleep again:

    want hulle o was swaar. [*oinohi bebarehotes bleary]
    ἦσαν γὰρ αὐτῶν οἱ ὀφθαλμοὶ βεβαρημένοι.
    for their eyes were heavy.

    44 Toe het Hy weg van hulle af gegaan en het weer gebid
    καὶ ἀφεὶς αὐτοὺς πάλιν ἀπελθὼν προσηύξατο
    And he left them, and went away again, and prayed

    vir die derde maal, (en) dieselfde woord(e) gespreek.
    ἐκ τρίτου, τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον εἰπὼν πάλιν.
    the third time, saying the same words.

    45 Daarna kom Hy by die dissipels en s vir hulle:
    τότε ἔρχεται πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς (αὐτοῦ) καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς
    Then cometh he to his disciples and saith unto them,

    Slaap aan, julle, en rus! Kyk, die UUR is nabyHIER!
    Καθεύδετε λοιπὸν καὶ ἀναπαύεσθε ἰδοὺ ἤγγικεν ἡ ὥρα
    Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand

    dat die Seun van die Mens verraai word in sondaarshande.
    καὶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου παραδίδοται εἰς χεῖρας ἁμαρτωλῶν.
    and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

    Johannes 18:1,2 2Kronieke 29:16c
    Dit ges, het Jesus uitgegaan saam met sy dissipels
    Ταῦτα εἰπὼν Ἰησοῦς ἐξῆλθεν σὺν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ
    When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples

    oor die spruit Kedron waar n tuin was [Genesis 32:22]
    πέραν τοῦ χειμάρρου τῶν Κέδρων, ὅπου ἦν κῆπος,
    over the brook Cedron, where was a garden,

    waarin Hyself en sy dissipels ingegaan het.
    εἰς ὃν εἰσῆλθεν αὐτὸς καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ.
    into which he entered, and his disciples.

    2 Judas wat Hom verlon het, het ook die plek geken
    ᾔδει δὲ καὶ Ἰούδας ὁ παραδιδοὺς αὐτὸν τὸν τόπον,
    And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place:

    omdat Jesus dikwels daar saamgekom het met sy dissipels.
    ὅτι πολλάκις συνήχθη Ἰησοῦς ἐκεῖ μετὰ τῶν μαθητῶν αὐτοῦ.
    for Jesus oft-times resorted thither with his disciples.

    Lukas 22:39-46
    Hy het uitgegaan en soos altyd na die Olyfberg koers gevat.
    Καὶ ἐξελθὼν ἐπορεύθη κατὰ τὸ ἔθος εἰς τὸ ὄρος τῶν Ἐλαιῶν
    And he came out, and went as he was wont, to the mount of Olives;

    En sy dissipels het Hom sontoe gevolg.
    ἠκολούθησαν δὲ αὐτῷ καὶ οἱ μαθηταί.
    and his disciples also followed him.

    40 En toe Hy op die plek kom, s Hy vir hulle:
    γενόμενος δὲ ἐπὶ τοῦ τόπου εἶπεν αὐτοῖς
    And when he was at the place, he said unto them,

    Julle moet bid om nie in versoeking te kom nie.
    Προσεύχεσθε μὴ εἰσελθεῖν εἰς πειρασμόν.
    Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

    41 Self het Hy omtrent n klipgooi weg van hulle af gegaan en
    καὶ αὐτὸς ἀπεσπάσθη ἀπ αὐτῶν ὡσεὶ λίθου βολήν, καὶ
    And he was withdrawn from them about a stones cast, and

    gekniel 42 en gebid: Vader, as U wil, bring hierdie
    θεὶς τὰ γόνατα 42 προσηύχετο Πάτερ, εἰ βούλει παρένεγκε τοῦτο
    kneeled down 42 and prayed, Father, if thou be willing,

    beker by My verby. Egter nie my wil nie, maar U wil, geskied!
    τὸ ποτήριον ἀπ ἐμοῦ πλὴν μὴ τὸ θέλημά μου ἀλλὰ τὸ σὸν γινέσθω.
    remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    43 n Engel uit die hemel het aan Hom verskyn en Hom versterk.
    ὤφθη δὲ αὐτῷ ἄγγελος ἀπ οὐρανοῦ ἐνισχύων αὐτόν.
    And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

    44 Toe kom Hy in sware stryd. Hy het met inspanning gebid
    καὶ γενόμενος ἐν ἀγωνίᾳ ἐκτενέστερον προσηύχετο
    And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly:

    tot sy sweet soos bloedklonte wat ter helle val, geword het.
    καὶ ἐγένετο ὁ ἱδρὼς αὐτοῦ ὡσεὶ θρόμβοι αἵματος ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν καταβαίνοντες.
    and his sweat was as it were drops of blood falling down to the ground.


    45 Hy het van gebed opgestaan en by die dissipels gekom
    καὶ ἀναστὰς ἀπὸ τῆς προσευχῆς, ἐλθὼν πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς
    And when he rose up from prayer and was come to his disciples,

    en hulle van die kopseer aan die slaap gekry.
    εὗρεν κοιμωμένους αὐτοὺς ἀπὸ τῆς λύπης,
    he found them sleeping for sorrow,

    46 Toe verwyt Hy hulle: Wat l julle en slaap?
    καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Τί καθεύδετε;
    and said unto them, Why sleep ye?

    Staan op en bid dat julle nie in versoeking kom nie!
    ἀναστάντες προσεύχεσθε, ἵνα μὴ εἰσέλθητε εἰς πειρασμόν.
    rise and pray, lest ye come into temptation.

  5. #5

    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn View Post
    Or maybe it seems to speak of what's in the mind of the reader or writer?

    "HEART of the earth" is figurative for or of heart-felt or "passionate" experience, alive, conscious, aware, knowingly -- 'the Passion of Christ' BEFORE He died or his body was buried.
    Absolutely true. But words are defined by their context. A single word can have several distinct meanings.

    So in this context we're talking about Christ *dying.* Instantly our thought goes to *burial.* That's what the "heart of the earth" seems to be speaking of.

  6. #6
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    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Absolutely true. But words are defined by their context. A single word can have several distinct meanings.

    So in this context we're talking about Christ *dying.* Instantly our thought goes to *burial.* That's what the "heart of the earth" seems to be speaking of.
    Is Jesus ~in this context talking about Him *dying*~? Or about Jonah, ~dying~? No; Jonah neither died in the fish nor for three days and three nights; he was very much aware and so gave an alive description of his DEATH'S ANXIETY. So do the Gospels give a living impression of Jesus' DEATH'S SUFFERING or ANXIETY. Jesus' Suffering though, wasn't of disobedience like Jonah's, but OF OBEDIENCE, of obedience of the Saviour of the world, and therefore of Jesus' once for all LIVING AND WILLING, DIVINE, Suffering of obedience on behalf of those whom He became "like Jonah was in the heart of the earth".

    Therefore, ~Instantly our thought goes to the Passover-of-Yahweh-Suffering the darkness of eternal hell as "Our Passover" in our place. That's what Jesus EXPERIENCED as well as expressed in prayer and communion with his heavenly Father. John 17:1,2 e.g..

  7. #7

    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn View Post
    Is Jesus ~in this context talking about Him *dying*~? Or about Jonah, ~dying~? No; Jonah neither died in the fish nor for three days and three nights; he was very much aware and so gave an alive description of his DEATH'S ANXIETY. So do the Gospels give a living impression of Jesus' DEATH'S SUFFERING or ANXIETY. Jesus' Suffering though, wasn't of disobedience like Jonah's, but OF OBEDIENCE, of obedience of the Saviour of the world, and therefore of Jesus' once for all LIVING AND WILLING, DIVINE, Suffering of obedience on behalf of those whom He became "like Jonah was in the heart of the earth".

    Therefore, ~Instantly our thought goes to the Passover-of-Yahweh-Suffering the darkness of eternal hell as "Our Passover" in our place. That's what Jesus EXPERIENCED as well as expressed in prayer and communion with his heavenly Father. John 17:1,2 e.g..
    Would you tie the three into this?

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    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn View Post
    Is Jesus ~in this context talking about Him *dying*~? Or about Jonah, ~dying~? No; Jonah neither died in the fish nor for three days and three nights; he was very much aware and so gave an alive description of his DEATH'S ANXIETY. So do the Gospels give a living impression of Jesus' DEATH'S SUFFERING or ANXIETY. Jesus' Suffering though, wasn't of disobedience like Jonah's, but OF OBEDIENCE, of obedience of the Saviour of the world, and therefore of Jesus' once for all LIVING AND WILLING, DIVINE, Suffering of obedience on behalf of those whom He became "like Jonah was in the heart of the earth".

    Therefore, ~Instantly our thought goes to the Passover-of-Yahweh-Suffering the darkness of eternal hell as "Our Passover" in our place. That's what Jesus EXPERIENCED as well as expressed in prayer and communion with his heavenly Father. John 17:1,2 e.g..
    The "SIGN" of Jonah is given because, as you said, Jonah did not die. NOR DOES THE SOUL OF MAN. The body dies physically, but the "death of the soul" means "lack of well-being" (Vine) - not unconsciousness. Our Lord Jesus suffered the "death of the soul" throughout His ministry as Isaiah 53:3 tells us that He was "a Man of sorrows", and from Gethsemane, were Matthew 26:38 and Mark 14:34 tell us that Jesus admitted, "... My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: ... .", to His last breath on the cross, our Lord suffered the "death of the soul". But He suffered the death of the Body as keenly after the beatings and crucifixion of twenty hours or so.

    There is no allegorizing away these deaths. They are real and are the portion of every man, and mean exactly what they are. Our Lord died physically and was placed in a Sepulcher. He died in SOUL for three and one half years, reaching a crescendo on Mount Olives and Golgotha. After that, He descended to Hades and instituted Paradise. The very word "Paradise" PRECLUDES ANY FURTHER SUFFERING. Our Lord, the thief of the cross next to Him, David, Abraham and people like Samuel RESTED in Paradise in Hades - a real place.

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    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Matthew 12.40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


    This seems to speak of the grave.
    Exactly right. Jesus is drawing a comparison between Jonah's experience and his experience.

    Duration:
    Jonah -->> three days and three nights
    Jesus -->> three days and three nights

    Location:
    Jonah -->> belly of a huge fish
    Jesus -->> in the heart of the earth

    The reader is invited to compare the belly of a huge fish with the heart of the earth and draw a conclusion from the comparison. Let's suspend for the moment the question of whether Jonah was inside a fish or a whale and simply suppose for the sake of the discussion that Jonah was inside a sea creature large enough to have swallowed Jonah whole. It is noteworthy, I think, to consider that the sea creature itself was inside the ocean, and that Jesus' intended us to draw a comparison between the ocean and the heart of the earth. Both of these things are associated with burial, as we see in the book of Revelation.

    Revelation 20:
    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


    At the final judgment, the sea gives up the dead which were in it, and from this we understand that the sea is one of two places where the dead are kept, the other place is "Hades", or in Hebrew "Sheol", i.e. the grave. So, in a sense, Jonah spent three days and three nights in one of the two places where the dead are kept, i.e. in a sea creature in the sea. Jesus also spent three days and three nights in the other place where the dead are kept, i.e. in the heart of the earth.

  10. #10

    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn View Post
    Is Jesus ~in this context talking about Him *dying*~? Or about Jonah, ~dying~? No; Jonah neither died in the fish nor for three days and three nights; he was very much aware and so gave an alive description of his DEATH'S ANXIETY. So do the Gospels give a living impression of Jesus' DEATH'S SUFFERING or ANXIETY. Jesus' Suffering though, wasn't of disobedience like Jonah's, but OF OBEDIENCE, of obedience of the Saviour of the world, and therefore of Jesus' once for all LIVING AND WILLING, DIVINE, Suffering of obedience on behalf of those whom He became "like Jonah was in the heart of the earth".

    Therefore, ~Instantly our thought goes to the Passover-of-Yahweh-Suffering the darkness of eternal hell as "Our Passover" in our place. That's what Jesus EXPERIENCED as well as expressed in prayer and communion with his heavenly Father. John 17:1,2 e.g..
    I get what you're saying, but I do think Jonah's experience was a kind of "death" experience. He sacrificed himself by having himself tossed out of the boat. He should've died.

    This was a picture of Christ's self-sacrifice for our sin--not for his own, of course. And so, like Jonah, he cast himself into the "heart of the earth," or into the grave.

    At the same time I wouldn't dismiss the idea of the "heart of the earth" reflecting a kind of emotional distress, an anxiety in the midst of this death experience. It certainly had to be part of it, since this was God's emotional distress over us!

  11. #11
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    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Do all of you really believe Jonah didn't die? He could have been supernaturally kept alive without oxygen for three days, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Also, to suggest Jonah did not die, is to suggest Jesus did not really die either. Some call that the swoon theory.

    Jonah 2:1 From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
    and you listened to my cry....
    6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
    the earth beneath barred me in forever.
    But you, Lord my God,
    brought my life up from the pit.

    Are the roots of the mountains in the ocean? Of course not. Jonah was in Hades. The same place Jesus went, the bottomless pit. The heart of the earth. Dead for three days and three nights, then alive again. That is the sign of Jonah!

  12. #12
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    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Do all of you really believe Jonah didn't die? He could have been supernaturally kept alive without oxygen for three days, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Also, to suggest Jonah did not die, is to suggest Jesus did not really die either. Some call that the swoon theory.

    Jonah 2:1 From deep in the realm of the dead I called for help,
    and you listened to my cry....
    6 To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
    the earth beneath barred me in forever.
    But you, Lord my God,
    brought my life up from the pit.

    Are the roots of the mountains in the ocean? Of course not. Jonah was in Hades. The same place Jesus went, the bottomless pit. The heart of the earth. Dead for three days and three nights, then alive again. That is the sign of Jonah!
    I really believe Jonah didn't die. The God Who made His creature, and the Laws that govern it, is fully capable of making an exception when He wants to. Twice in the Old Testament the earth stood still on its axis. Our Lord Jesus walked on water and so did Peter (for a while). Daniel is not appetizing for caged lions, and Shadrach and his brethren were not incinerated by a super-heated fire. And finally, the diverse resurrections show a God Who possesses not only power over the Laws of His creature, but is able to restore all men from death to life.

    Jonah HAD to stay alive as he is a "SIGN" of the SOUL of Jesus which might rest in Hades, but is fully conscious and intelligent, as the narrative in Luke 16 and Revelation 6:9 shows the SOULS of the dead to be.

    And oh... by the way, the "roots" of the mountains are in the sea. The King James uses the word "bottoms" which is more accurate. The Hebrew word means "where it is cut off". The same word is used twice more to describe things in the Temple that had BASES.

  13. #13

    Re: The heart of the earth, is it Jerusalem, or the grave?

    I like what Gerhard Ebersoehn is saying here.
    I do not believe we need to know everything axactly as it is ( as to the where abouts of places)
    but we do need to know Him!

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