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Thread: Those who know what is right

  1. #46

    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't think you understand Keraz - he doesn't believe in the rapture to heaven, period. He's not arguing Premil, Amil or Pretrib...
    I actually do understand that. Sometimes getting somebody to open up to other ideas is a matter of establishing minute points, one at a time. My interest was to get him to acknowledge that some do not believe the Church spends time in heaven during the "Great Tribulation," or Reign of Antichrist. I am a Millennialist who doesn't believe the Church spends time in Heaven at Christ's Coming. It is an instantaneous event. His interest seems to be to show that the Church's destiny is here on the earth. Since we are in agreement on that he attacks an irrelevant point when discussing this with me. Furthermore, he misrepresents my position.

  2. #47

    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    When the Son of man; Jesus comes, He Returns to the earth. God the Father is not on earth then.
    Daniel 7:13-14 is obviously about the time after the Millennium, when Jesus hands the Kingdom to the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24 .
    You are misreading verse 14 - the He is God, not Jesus; who has just reigned for 1000 years. Proved by how it is only then that the Kingdom becomes everlasting.
    I don't believe that. And I'm not sure many commentators do either. God gives the Kingdom to Jesus. He is escorted near to God, being placed on God's right hand after his ascension into heaven. He is given the Kingdom so that when he establishes this Kingdom on earth, no enemies can remain.

    The eternal Kingdom, therefore, begins at Jesus' coming to earth to establish his Kingdom there. That is when the eternal Kingdom begins. That's when his enemies are vanquished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    The throne room scene of Revelation 5:1-14, is all about Jesus being worthy to open the Scroll, nothing about Him going back to earth, or the Kingdom.
    Also proved by the truth of there can only be one time for the Book of Life to be opened. Malachi 3:16, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 13:8, Revelation 20:12, Philippians 4:3 Multiple openings of the Book and any earlier conferment of immortality is simply false teaching.

  3. #48
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I actually do understand that. Sometimes getting somebody to open up to other ideas is a matter of establishing minute points, one at a time. My interest was to get him to acknowledge that some do not believe the Church spends time in heaven during the "Great Tribulation," or Reign of Antichrist. I am a Millennialist who doesn't believe the Church spends time in Heaven at Christ's Coming. It is an instantaneous event. His interest seems to be to show that the Church's destiny is here on the earth. Since we are in agreement on that he attacks an irrelevant point when discussing this with me. Furthermore, he misrepresents my position.
    Well, good luck with that. On my part, I have covered all that with Keraz without success. He simply believes the church will be on earth when Christ returns - for him, there's no rapture before, mid or after the GT.

  4. #49
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Every other believer has taken a side (Premil, Amil and Pretrib) in arguing when they believe the rapture/resurrection will occur. You are the ONLY one on this Board who denies the rapture of the church to heaven. I have given you several passages that support this, yet every time you denounce this truth, you claim that "there is no definitive scriptural support".

    Your interpretation of God's eschatological plans is pretty skewed and your unwillingness to consider other considerations doesn't make for exciting debate.
    You can easily see what my side of the discussion is. It is what the Prophetic Word actually does say will happen. I reject all other ideas, theories, doctrines and fables.
    What is about to happen, at the moment of the next attack on Israel; with nukes this time, is the sudden and shocking Lord's Day of wrath by fire, that will destroy them all, including 99% of the Israelis. Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 34:2, Isaiah 66:15-16, and over 100 other prophesies that describe this forthcoming disaster that will affect the whole world.
    Paul says we should know about it: 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 Verse 9-10 says we are not appointed to His wrath and we shall live together with Jesus. This does not even hint of a removal, but as many verses tell us: of His protection. Isaiah 41:13, Psalms 91, + Then, after Jesus Returns, we will live with Him. Luke 21:27-28

  5. #50
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't believe that. And I'm not sure many commentators do either. God gives the Kingdom to Jesus. He is escorted near to God, being placed on God's right hand after his ascension into heaven. He is given the Kingdom so that when he establishes this Kingdom on earth, no enemies can remain.

    The eternal Kingdom, therefore, begins at Jesus' coming to earth to establish his Kingdom there. That is when the eternal Kingdom begins. That's when his enemies are vanquished.
    Jesus and those who follow Him, have already been given the Kingdom. Luke 12:32 He just has to Return and sit on the throne.
    The Eternal Kingdom starts when the 7000 years decreed for mankind finishes. Eternity is described in Revelation 21 and 22, after the Millennium reign of Jesus.
    The ungodly enemies are not vanquished until the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:7-10

  6. #51

    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Jesus and those who follow Him, have already been given the Kingdom. Luke 12:32 He just has to Return and sit on the throne.
    The Eternal Kingdom starts when the 7000 years decreed for mankind finishes. Eternity is described in Revelation 21 and 22, after the Millennium reign of Jesus.
    The ungodly enemies are not vanquished until the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:7-10
    Those are very weak arguments, Keraz! You are not special. You're going to have to pray and to work just like the rest of us to hear from the Lord in His own good time how these things will specifically be worked out. You don't have a direct line to God, whereas the rest of us do not!

    What do I mean "these are weak arguments?" To say that eternity begins at the end of the Millennium and that the Eternal Kingdom begins after 7000 years has no basis in biblical doctrine. In the Early Church it was argued that the Kingdom would actually begin after 6000 years, corresponding with the 6 days of Creation. The 7th day, or the 7th Millennium, is supposed to be a Sabbath--the Millennial Kingdom, which is synonymous with the Eternal Kingdom.

    Yes, I know that Revelation seems to speak of the New Jerusalem and of the New Earth after describing the Millennial Age. But nowhere is this described as the "Eternal Kingdom." The Eternal Kingdom begins, as I said, with the Millennial Age, because it is the product of Christ's Coming to establish his Kingdom on earth. That is the Eternal Kingdom. That is when God's enemies are destroyed.

    Yes, there will be one more rebellion at the end of the Millennium. But it will come to nothing. It will not bring an end to Christ's Eternal Kingdom.

  7. #52
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    In the Eternal Kingdom there will be no more Death. Revelation 21:4
    In the Millennium Kingdom, people will die. Isaiah 65:20

    God's enemies are all gone before Eternity.
    The GWT Judgement is the only time that immortality is given, to those found worthy after all the trials and test that we all must undergo. Romans 8:17

    Do I detect a hint of you being somewhat aggrieved at me for posting scriptures that confront your beliefs?
    I am not special, I just pray and work hard to collect, collate, classify and comprehend all the Bible prophesies. I have found that they do make a credible coherent construct, that we can be certain will come to final completion in the near future. See!

  8. #53
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    In the Eternal Kingdom there will be no more Death. Revelation 21:4
    After the GWT event, in the NHNE, YES!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    In the Millennium Kingdom, people will die. Isaiah 65:20
    Absolutely Correct, however there will be people in QUICKENED NEW BODIES living among those in the flesh... If you really think that the beheaded who are raised from the dead are in Fleshly bodies, consider this... THEY ARE ALREADY MARRIED TO JESUS! They are part of the Bride of Christ. Will Jesus really let Part of His bride die again. JESUS IS LIFE, not death! Unless you believe Jesus could have been killed the day he resurrected, and stood among his disciples?

    John 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

    If you say the resurrected during the millennium can die, then Jesus too could die here... And if you admit tho that, then what power does He have over death? And if you think not, then WE TOO HAVE THAT BLESSED HOPE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    God's enemies are all gone before Eternity.
    Agreed

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The GWT Judgement is the only time that immortality is given, to those found worthy after all the trials and test that we all must undergo. Romans 8:17
    Nope... I admit that one could argue Jesus may not have received his Quickened Body right after resurrection (as indicated when he would not let Mary touch Him in John 20 [as she may have been unclean touching a dead body] RIGHT AFTER his resurrection.) However, by that night when He appeared to many in the room, he HAD gone to His Father already and received His New Body. In like manner, we will receive our new bodies (SHORTLY AFTER) We are resurrected. This will happen at His coming after the 6th Seal of Revelation, and at the Gathering of Matt 24 by His Angels.

  9. #54
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    SoF, I am aware of the reason you insist on immortality before the GWT and even before Jesus Returns; if you're pre-trib. You believe, quite correctly, that going to heaven necessitates a spiritual body, therefore an eternal one.
    Nowhere does the Bible say this will happen. Only after the GWT is immortality given to those whose names are in the Book of Life. At that time, God and therefore heaven, come down to earth. We are not told what sort of bodies those counted worthy will get. 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is about the best description of what will happen after the GWT Judgement. .

    Note that the martyred saints, Revelation 20:4, are just brought back to life, no mention of immortality then.
    Jesus is, of course. one with God and has always existed with God. John 1:2 Using Jesus as an example for what could happen to us, isn't right or sensible.

  10. #55

    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    In the Eternal Kingdom there will be no more Death. Revelation 21:4
    In the Millennium Kingdom, people will die. Isaiah 65:20

    God's enemies are all gone before Eternity.
    The GWT Judgement is the only time that immortality is given, to those found worthy after all the trials and test that we all must undergo. Romans 8:17

    Do I detect a hint of you being somewhat aggrieved at me for posting scriptures that confront your beliefs?
    I am not special, I just pray and work hard to collect, collate, classify and comprehend all the Bible prophesies. I have found that they do make a credible coherent construct, that we can be certain will come to final completion in the near future. See!
    It is not that you challenge my beliefs. I welcome that. It is what I detect is a self-promoting attitude, puffing yourself up and degrading others. That has no place in God's Kingdom. We are all equals.

    That being said, I welcome your responses. I shouldn't have said your arguments were "weak," indicating they were illogical or unfounded. They do have Scriptural foundation, and they are logical. I only meant to say that Scriptures do not themselves explicitly teach what you're teaching. They do not teach the eternal Kingdom starts at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. On the contrary, throughout the OT Prophets the emphasis is primarily on the coming of the Messianic Kingdom. And it is *Christs' Reign,* which begins at that time, that is said to be an "Eternal Kingdom."

    If you don't find you have a self-righteous, self-promoting attitude, then prove it by showing some respect for opinions outside of yourself. Then I will have nothing further to say on the matter. What I don't care for is your victim mentality, in which anybody who differs from you is pictured as running from you, like a rabbit from Elmer Fudd.

  11. #56
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    I have great difficulty in respecting false teaching. People who pronounce their opinions as facts and those who promote outcomes that are far removed from what the Bible actually says will happen.
    I don't so much as denigrate those things, as post what it is that the Prophetic Word actually says. Is it my fault that people don't like being corrected?

    A good example is the issue of when immortality will be conferred. I prove scripturally, that that cannot happen until after the GWT Judgement. But because that truth destroys the rapture to heaven theory, people get all upset, especially when they find there is no support for their belief.

    The only regret I feel, is for people who have now been told the Bible truth, but who refuse to change their beliefs. It would have been better for them to remain in ignorance, as now Jesus will ask: Why did you reject the truth?

  12. #57
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I have great difficulty in respecting false teaching. People who pronounce their opinions as facts and those who promote outcomes that are far removed from what the Bible actually says will happen.
    I don't so much as denigrate those things, as post what it is that the Prophetic Word actually says. Is it my fault that people don't like being corrected?

    A good example is the issue of when immortality will be conferred. I prove scripturally, that that cannot happen until after the GWT Judgement. But because that truth destroys the rapture to heaven theory, people get all upset, especially when they find there is no support for their belief.

    The only regret I feel, is for people who have now been told the Bible truth, but who refuse to change their beliefs. It would have been better for them to remain in ignorance, as now Jesus will ask: Why did you reject the truth?
    Let me ask you a question... Do you personally have eternal life once you die? Can you die again?

  13. #58
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    SoF, I am aware of the reason you insist on immortality before the GWT and even before Jesus Returns; if you're pre-trib. You believe, quite correctly, that going to heaven necessitates a spiritual body, therefore an eternal one.
    Nowhere does the Bible say this will happen.
    1 Corithians 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[a] also bear the image of the man of heaven.

  14. #59
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    Re: Those who know what is right

    SoF, I am aware of the reason you insist on immortality before the GWT and even before Jesus Returns; if you're pre-trib. You believe, quite correctly, that going to heaven necessitates a spiritual body, therefore an eternal one.
    Nowhere does the Bible say this will happen.
    I am not Pre-Trib. I am what some might call Pre-Wrath, I guess... (Although the timeline I see is far more clear than theirs...) My position is that I will be standing in the group at Rev 7:9-17, AFTER the 6th Seal is opened and before the 7th.

  15. #60

    Re: Those who know what is right

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I have great difficulty in respecting false teaching. People who pronounce their opinions as facts and those who promote outcomes that are far removed from what the Bible actually says will happen.
    I don't so much as denigrate those things, as post what it is that the Prophetic Word actually says. Is it my fault that people don't like being corrected?
    You're assuming that you are correcting them. Have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong, that you might be wrong in trying to correct them with your own false doctrines? You see where this kind of thinking leads?

    But I've said my peace. If you want to think you're God's prophet and messenger, the teacher of THE truth, that's between you and God. For me, I try to get a little truth out of everybody here. I find that all of us are flawed, and only see part of the truth. I wish we were all Apostle Pauls, but maybe that's not even the issue? Maybe it has as much to do with relationships and behavior as it does about doctrine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    A good example is the issue of when immortality will be conferred. I prove scripturally, that that cannot happen until after the GWT Judgement. But because that truth destroys the rapture to heaven theory, people get all upset, especially when they find there is no support for their belief.
    99.9% of the evangelical, born again Christian world that I personally know would say that immortality is conferred when Christ returns at the end of this age. So, most of my friends are Premil. At the same time I know many of my brothers and sisters in Christ are Amil or Postmil. The point is, my Premil friends, who actually believe in a literal Millennium, view Christ's coming as *before* the Millennium, and not after it.

    Are you a Postmillennialist? Where do you agree and where do you disagree with that view?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    The only regret I feel, is for people who have now been told the Bible truth, but who refuse to change their beliefs. It would have been better for them to remain in ignorance, as now Jesus will ask: Why did you reject the truth?

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