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Thread: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

  1. #166
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I think you idea is unrealistic. I'm not claiming that 144k people "win the world" i mean read the book of Rev the idea isn't that the GT consists of 144k Men with Gods name in their Forheads Bringing the whole world into the religion of Christianity.
    Careful with your use of words. Nowhere does it say the "144,000 will bring the WHOLE world into Christianity". That's your spin.

    The passage specifically say the Great Multitude came OUT of the GT. IDK what this means to you. Maybe you believe the GT last 50 years? And therefore the Multitude of All nations consist of Christians 1-50 years old?
    Your misunderstanding of the passage is down to your faulty Premil doctrine. The belief that the "Great Multitude" that came out the GT only came to faith after the church was raptured some seven years earlier, is false. The church will definitely be on earth when the 144,000 are commissioned and they will all be raptured at the same time.

    How do you believe the Whole world watches the 2W? There is this amazing new thing in our world called technology. And once more the 144k are not called "baby Chrisitans" they have the Name of God written in their forheads. Maybe you don't understand what that means.?

    Maybe that would be an insteresting study for you?
    Television evangelists abound even today, but I don't see unbelievers falling over themselves to convert, do you? If I didn't know better you would have convinced me that whoever hears the 144,000 will suddenly be convicted of their wickedness and sin. Clearly, you forget that God would have sent a strong delusion to most of the wicked that they should not believe (2 Thess 2:11). The 144,000 are more likely to have limited success within their Jewish communities than the outside world.

    I don't know whether you believe that God's seal on the 144,000 makes them equal to Christ? Because not even Jesus could convert everyone who heard him. Their seal (invisible) certainly is a divine mark of protection just as God put a mark on Cain after he murdered his brother (Gen 4:15). To interpret it as a magic wand to bring all and sundry to faith is missing the point.

  2. #167
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Careful with your use of words. Nowhere does it say the "144,000 will bring the WHOLE world into Christianity". That's your spin.
    Actually it isn't i don't believe this makes any sense, the bible clearly tells us the Beast takes over the world it doesn't mention anything about the whole world being converted to Chritianty.



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your misunderstanding of the passage is down to your faulty Premil doctrine. The belief that the "Great Multitude" that came out the GT only came to faith after the church was raptured some seven years earlier, is false. The church will definitely be on earth when the 144,000 are commissioned and they will all be raptured at the same time.
    You say pre-Mil alot. The bible says the Great Multitude came out of the GT. If you believe the Great Multitude includes anyone who doesn't go thru the GT your the one with Faulty Doctrine not me.



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Television evangelists abound even today, but I don't see unbelievers falling over themselves to convert, do you? If I didn't know better you would have convinced me that whoever hears the 144,000 will suddenly be convicted of their wickedness and sin. Clearly, you forget that God would have sent a strong delusion to most of the wicked that they should not believe (2 Thess 2:11). The 144,000 are more likely to have limited success within their Jewish communities than the outside world.

    I don't know whether you believe that God's seal on the 144,000 makes them equal to Christ? Because not even Jesus could convert everyone who heard him. Their seal (invisible) certainly is a divine mark of protection just as God put a mark on Cain after he murdered his brother (Gen 4:15). To interpret it as a magic wand to bring all and sundry to faith is missing the point.
    Once more Go thru my post your guys are just creating a strawman and attacking it. No one anywhere has suggested that the 144k evangelize the world for Christianity. The Great Multitude come out of the GT this Multitude doesn't come out of the 2000 year Church Age nor does the bible mention anywhere that the Great Multitude arrived in heaven by some Post-trib rapture.

  3. #168

    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Those that break the least and taught men to do so were the scribes and pharisees that Jesus said our righteousness (not anothers imputed) had to be more than. And no, he's not talking about his righteous record imputed, which isn't a biblical concept. He said very clearly "your righteousness" and those that do not have righteousness that exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and pharisees will not enter, so we know those that break and teach men to do so will not either. As you said, "the answer involves context". Always does.

    Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    I don't think you've interpreted this correctly. I can see, logically, how you could do so. But looking at the broader context, no.

    Those who violate God's commandments, and teach this, much as the Pharisees did, were not commended by Jesus. That doesn't mean either that they necessarily go to Hell or hold completely to the teaching of the Pharisees, who go farther than this.

    The point is, the Pharisees, who hold to a form of religion that deliberately discounts God's commandments, are on their way to Hell. But anybody who does not go as far as them in opposing God's commandments, who deliberately oppose even some of God's commandments, are to be demoted in the Kingdom of God. That is, they will attain to the Kingdom of God, but their status is to be reduced.

    So no, I do *not* think those who teach that it's okay to violate God's commandments are the same as the Pharisees. They cannot be, since the former are going to Heaven, and the latter are going to Hell. The point is only that those who are going to Heaven should not *act* like those who are going to Hell!

  4. #169

    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I think you idea is unrealistic. I'm not claiming that 144k people "win the world" i mean read the book of Rev the idea isn't that the GT consists of 144k Men with Gods name in their Forheads Bringing the whole world into the religion of Christianity.
    No, this isn't my idea. The DW was talking about how Israel in the Tribulation invites people to the Marriage Feast, if I'm not mistaken. That's apparently a reference to the common Pretrib notion that the 144,000 Jews are witnesses in the Great Tribulation, and evangelize a "Great Multitude" from all nations. If you don't believe this, please disregard!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    The passage specifically say the Great Multitude came OUT of the GT. IDK what this means to you. Maybe you believe the GT last 50 years? And therefore the Multitude of All nations consist of Christians 1-50 years old?

    How do you believe the Whole world watches the 2W? There is this amazing new thing in our world called technology. And once more the 144k are not called "baby Chrisitans" they have the Name of God written in their forheads. Maybe you don't understand what that means.?

    Maybe that would be an insteresting study for you?
    My statements were predicated on the idea that the 144,000 Jews are believed by many Pretribbers to be the sole source of evangelism in the world during the Great Tribulation. If they "missed the Rapture," then they become Christians on day one of the Tribulation Period. That makes them *baby Christians!*

    Of course I don't believe in this interpretation. So I don't see them as baby Christians at all. I'm just arguing *against* Pretribbers who believe this. After all, I was discussing something like this with the DW when you cut in, right? So maybe you should study up on what we were talking about before recommending my next course of study?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    Correct all the passage says explicitly is. That 144k Men are sealed with the Name of God in their forheads (no mention of them joining so faction of Chritianty thru Conversion). That a great multitude of people Come Out of the GT.

  5. #170
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, this isn't my idea. The DW was talking about how Israel in the Tribulation invites people to the Marriage Feast, if I'm not mistaken. That's apparently a reference to the common Pretrib notion that the 144,000 Jews are witnesses in the Great Tribulation, and evangelize a "Great Multitude" from all nations. If you don't believe this, please disregard!
    actually this makes sense. The part that doesn't make sense is the idea that the 144k are going to teach some form of Christian doctrine, I mean do you believe the 144k are gonna be protestants or Catholics lol. No the 144k are likely to be given a similar duty to the 70 Jesus sent out.



    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My statements were predicated on the idea that the 144,000 Jews are believed by many Pretribbers to be the sole source of evangelism in the world during the Great Tribulation. If they "missed the Rapture," then they become Christians on day one of the Tribulation Period. That makes them *baby Christians!*

    Of course I don't believe in this interpretation. So I don't see them as baby Christians at all. I'm just arguing *against* Pretribbers who believe this. After all, I was discussing something like this with the DW when you cut in, right? So maybe you should study up on what we were talking about before recommending my next course of study?
    I'm saying that to make a point about the phrase name written in their foreheads, this signifies to me anyway that God has manifested his name to then. This speaks to them being much more then for example a scholar well versed in High Christology from a university. See for example Isaiah 52:6

  6. #171

    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    actually this makes sense. The part that doesn't make sense is the idea that the 144k are going to teach some form of Christian doctrine, I mean do you believe the 144k are gonna be protestants or Catholics lol. No the 144k are likely to be given a similar duty to the 70 Jesus sent out.
    Don't ask me. Ask the Pretribbers! They're the ones who espouse this nonsense. They think that once the Church goes up to Heaven in a Pretrib Rapture the Jews left behind on earth will convert to Christianity--who cares if it is Catholic or Protestant?

    Why do you ask me when I don't even believe in this scenario? You're the Pretribber. You tell me! You tell me why you even find it credible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    I'm saying that to make a point about the phrase name written in their foreheads, this signifies to me anyway that God has manifested his name to then. This speaks to them being much more then for example a scholar well versed in High Christology from a university. See for example Isaiah 52:6
    It still wouldn't fit into the scenario predicted by the Pretribbers who promote this crazy idea! It would have to be a stamp on Jewish foreheads that instantly communicate to them maturity, education, and superhuman capacities to do what nobody has done before. That kind of stamp on the forehead is non-biblical, not to mention pure fantasy. I hope you don't believe in it?

  7. #172
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    They think that once the Church goes up to Heaven in a Pretrib Rapture the Jews left behind on earth will convert to Christianity--who cares if it is Catholic or Protestant?
    The 144,000 do not convert to Christianity. But they do, finally, recognize that Jesus is indeed the messiah when they meet with him at Azel, which I believe is the Mount of Olives.

  8. #173
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Don't ask me. Ask the Pretribbers! They're the ones who espouse this nonsense. They think that once the Church goes up to Heaven in a Pretrib Rapture the Jews left behind on earth will convert to Christianity--who cares if it is Catholic or Protestant?

    Why do you ask me when I don't even believe in this scenario? You're the Pretribber. You tell me! You tell me why you even find it credible?
    Because your misrpresenting someone elses postions and beating up on the straw man you created it.



    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It still wouldn't fit into the scenario predicted by the Pretribbers who promote this crazy idea! It would have to be a stamp on Jewish foreheads that instantly communicate to them maturity, education, and superhuman capacities to do what nobody has done before. That kind of stamp on the forehead is non-biblical, not to mention pure fantasy. I hope you don't believe in it?
    I don't understand what you believe that "no body has done before" the 144k invite people to Join the Kingdom that will come when Jesus arrives, the only thing that illogical is the strawman you keep claiming Pre-tribs believe in.

  9. #174

    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I disagree, the bible shows what God can do with One faithful Man. Look what Jesus did with 12 disciples, to believe that 144,000 thousand men with the Name of God written in their foreheads will fail sounds more unthinkable to me. Especially if the 2 Witnesses are around during that time.
    Well said.

    I read a study long ago that showed Paul to have been a "type" of the future 144,000 (in his Damascus road [sudden] conversion, etc [in a number of other ways as well]... "and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven"... as of one born out of due time... [born earlier than the rest, so to speak]), that is, following the departure/rapture of "the Church which is His body."


    Imagine if [if we had been there], just as Jesus had been about to ascend (Acts 1), and we would say under our breath, "No, Jesus! You simply cannot leave! These 11 will screw everything up, for sure!" ...saying this, based on what we'd seen just 40 short days earlier

    [Mark 16:14 "Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen."]

  10. #175
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Well said.

    I read a study long ago that showed Paul to have been a "type" of the future 144,000 (in his Damascus road [sudden] conversion, etc [in a number of other ways as well]... "and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven"... as of one born out of due time... [born earlier than the rest, so to speak]), that is, following the departure/rapture of "the Church which is His body."
    Well if there are 144k men With even Half the Zeal of Paul, added to the 2 Witnesses, and the fact that Angels will be proclaiming the Gospel from Heaven directly, to me personally it is not impossible that their message reaches the Whole world(even though it clear the Whole would doesn't accept and beleive this message.)

  11. #176

    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Well if there are 144k men With even Half the Zeal of Paul, added to the 2 Witnesses, and the fact that Angels will be proclaiming the Gospel from Heaven directly, to me personally it is not impossible that their message reaches the Whole world(even though it clear the Whole would doesn't accept and beleive this message.)
    Right.

    And Rev1:1 (also 22:6) says, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, TO SHEW UNTO His servants, things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]" (then much of the book goes on to describe those 7 years leading up to Christ's Second Coming to the earth, and we see "servants of our God" in 7:3).


    Additionally, the Matt10 passage I referred to earlier (all "Son of man cometh" passages refer to His Second Coming to the earth, to judge and to reign), as well as Matthew 24:14 (26:13) being "preached" during those 7 years (this context being especially during the first half, during "the BEGINNING of birth pangs [plural]" [i.e. the Seals]; the initial "birth PANG [singular]" being the start/arrival of "the Day of the Lord [time period]" [1Th5:2-3], following our departure/rapture)



    Oh, and the Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 context has it "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. His Second Coming to the earth [not our rapture, which is 'in the air']... "Son of man cometh"... "servants" ['blessed' (faithful and wise) or 'cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers']...)

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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Well if there are 144k men With even Half the Zeal of Paul, added to the 2 Witnesses, and the fact that Angels will be proclaiming the Gospel from Heaven directly, to me personally it is not impossible that their message reaches the Whole world(even though it clear the Whole would doesn't accept and beleive this message.)

    Where are we getting the idea that these 144,000 leave Zion, and/or preach the gospel? I don't know where this idea got started.

  13. #178
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Where are we getting the idea that these 144,000 leave Zion, and/or preach the gospel? I don't know where this idea got started.
    I didn't start this idea, Randy floated it back in Post 151 he agreed we presented a theological rational for our position but that he still had a Logical problem.

    Then he presented what he wanted us to explain to him.
    But his premise is the one that suggests during these 7 years the 144k will somehow evangilize the world something he claims (quite rightly) that the Church couldn't do in 2k Years. My only point is his premise assumes the 144k become what we would define now as Christians, and then be sent forth to teach this Christian theology to evangelize the World.

    On its head, i do believe this premise is silly and personally, I don't believe this is what Pre-tribbers believe as he claims. It's more of a straw-man

    But I want to asnwer your question because i think its interesting. Nothing to me Suggest all of the 144k Start out in Zion, but clearly they Meet back in Zion. This to me makes sense in Light of the Kingdom of Heaven Parable in Matthew 22:2

    8. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. 9 Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ 10And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.

    At this point the Servants are on the Road but at the time of the Feast clearly they will be back in Zion as will the Many they Invited. This is what i believe we see in Rev 14 with the 144k back on Mt. Zion with the Lamb, i mean clearly after this point they never Leave him again.

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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Actually it isn't i don't believe this makes any sense, the bible clearly tells us the Beast takes over the world it doesn't mention anything about the whole world being converted to Chritianty.
    At least we agree on this one.

    You say pre-Mil alot. The bible says the Great Multitude came out of the GT. If you believe the Great Multitude includes anyone who doesn't go thru the GT your the one with Faulty Doctrine not me.
    The reason I mention Premil is that I know your views are formed from that doctrine. Take, for example, your statement "If you believe the Great Multitude includes anyone who doesn't go thru the GT..." by this statement you implied that the multitude came to faith after the church has supposedly gone to heaven. But this position is as spurious and scripturally indefensible as they come.

    As we know, the church also goes through the GT, therefore, the multitude is the true number of the risen/raptured church. I challenged you earlier to prove when the "left behind" who supposedly come to Christ after the rapture rises from the dead, but you couldn't! The scriptures confirm only TWO resurrections, therefore, the resurrection of the saints who you believe die in the GT should be the second resurrection while those who rise after the 1000 years should be the third. The only problem is there is no third resurrection!

    Once more Go thru my post your guys are just creating a strawman and attacking it. No one anywhere has suggested that the 144k evangelize the world for Christianity. The Great Multitude come out of the GT this Multitude doesn't come out of the 2000 year Church Age nor does the bible mention anywhere that the Great Multitude arrived in heaven by some Post-trib rapture.
    There's nothing in scripture that suggests that the multitude that came out of the GT is exclusive of the church. Any assumption to the contrary is your imagination. There is only one rapture - at the end of the GT. So the alive and remain get raptured with the resurrection of ALL the dead in Christ which naturally include those beheaded in the GT.

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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    The 144,000 do not convert to Christianity. But they do, finally, recognize that Jesus is indeed the messiah when they meet with him at Azel, which I believe is the Mount of Olives.
    But their commission includes turning others to Christ also.

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