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Thread: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

  1. #181
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The reason I mention Premil is that I know your views are formed from that doctrine. Take, for example, your statement "If you believe the Great Multitude includes anyone who doesn't go thru the GT..." by this statement you implied that the multitude came to faith after the church has supposedly gone to heaven. But this position is as spurious and scripturally indefensible as they come.

    As we know, the church also goes through the GT, therefore, the multitude is the true number of the risen/raptured church. I challenged you earlier to prove when the "left behind" who supposedly come to Christ after the rapture rises from the dead, but you couldn't! The scriptures confirm only TWO resurrections, therefore, the resurrection of the saints who you believe die in the GT should be the second resurrection while those who rise after the 1000 years should be the third. The only problem is there is no third resurrection!



    There's nothing in scripture that suggests that the multitude that came out of the GT is exclusive of the church. Any assumption to the contrary is your imagination. There is only one rapture - at the end of the GT. So the alive and remain get raptured with the resurrection of ALL the dead in Christ which naturally include those beheaded in the GT.
    Correct i am 100% Pre-Mil, i thought you were also.?

    Anyway, Once more the Multitidue (that comes out of the GT) and those Ressurected in the first Ressurection (who where beheaded by the Beast), are limited to those mentioned in those Passages who go thru the GT, your the one who wants to add 2000 years of Church history into those groups when the Opposite is explictly stated.

    Once more

    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


    If you died today brother you would not be a part of this Multitde since you will not have come out of the "GT".

    Same as this passage here.

    Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    If you where to die today or have died in the last 2000 years you are not one of the people who come to life in this passage.

  2. #182
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct i am 100% Pre-Mil, i thought you were also.?
    I get confused with all the abbreviations (Premil, Pretrib, Post-trib, Amil, etc) bandied about. I believe that the church will go through the GT and rise/rapture at the end of it. On the other hand, you believe the church will rapture BEFORE the GT, so you and I are never in the same camps until you see the error of pre-tribulation rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Anyway, Once more the Multitidue (that comes out of the GT) and those Ressurected in the first Ressurection (who where beheaded by the Beast), are limited to those mentioned in those Passages who go thru the GT, your the one who wants to add 2000 years of Church history into those groups when the Opposite is explictly stated.

    Once more

    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


    If you died today brother you would not be a part of this Multitde since you will not have come out of the "GT".

    Same as this passage here.

    Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    If you where to die today or have died in the last 2000 years you are not one of the people who come to life in this passage.
    I see the logic in the statement that the dead in Christ prior to the GT cannot claim to have come out of it. The passage, however, does not explicitly say that this group resurrected after the church had already risen. And since you continue to skirt around what obviously is a big problem to your pre-wrath rapture, I would say that the weight of probability favours the 2000 years dead in Christ rising at the same time with those who die during the GT, since we have only two resurrections.

  3. #183
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I get confused with all the abbreviations (Premil, Pretrib, Post-trib, Amil, etc) bandied about. I believe that the church will go through the GT and rise/rapture at the end of it. On the other hand, you believe the church will rapture BEFORE the GT, so you and I are never in the same camps until you see the error of pre-tribulation rapture.
    We are both in the Premil camp tho <3. Our only difference is about a 3.5 year period that applies to a very small % of Christians as a whole even in your own view.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I see the logic in the statement that the dead in Christ prior to the GT cannot claim to have come out of it. The passage, however, does not explicitly say that this group resurrected after the church had already risen. And since you continue to skirt around what obviously is a big problem to your pre-wrath rapture, I would say that the weight of probability favours the 2000 years dead in Christ rising at the same time with those who die during the GT, since we have only two resurrections.
    As i said the bible clearly shows a difference between those who go thru the GT (The Great Multitude) and the Church (Past 2000 years of History).

    Post-trib's deny this diffence and try to lump the rest of the dead in Christ (prior to the GT) with those that go thru it.

    IOW they believe tribulation saints don't exist and you do this by expanding and adding people to the passages that explicitly reference those who receive victory over the Beast (who only reigns during the 3.5 year period).

    If i don't come out of the GT i am not a member of the Great Multitude. Rev 7:9

    If i don't conqure the beast i will not recive the blessing mention in Rev 14:13.

    Nor will i stand on the sea of Glass playing harps like those in Rev 15:2-4.

    Or be One of those Souls in Rev 20:4

    These are just the facts.

    How unfair would it be if I received the reward for Conquering the beast when I didn't have to face him. Or how unfair is it that these people can receive a reward during this tribulation that I can't receive because I was born in ages past?

  4. #184

    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    As i said the bible clearly shows a difference between those who go thru the GT (The Great Multitude) and the Church (Past 2000 years of History).
    Really? I find the Great Tribulation and the Church Age to be virtually synonymous. The Great Tribulation is described as such in reference to the Jewish People. But the time period of this Jewish Suffering is synonymous with the Church Age.

    So the distinction you talk about does not exist if I'm correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    Post-trib's deny this diffence and try to lump the rest of the dead in Christ (prior to the GT) with those that go thru it.

    IOW they believe tribulation saints don't exist and you do this by expanding and adding people to the passages that explicitly reference those who receive victory over the Beast (who only reigns during the 3.5 year period).
    It is *not true* that Postribbers deny the existence of Tribulation Saints! That is most obviously false!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    If i don't come out of the GT i am not a member of the Great Multitude. Rev 7:9

    If i don't conqure the beast i will not recive the blessing mention in Rev 14:13.

    Nor will i stand on the sea of Glass playing harps like those in Rev 15:2-4.

    Or be One of those Souls in Rev 20:4

    These are just the facts.

    How unfair would it be if I received the reward for Conquering the beast when I didn't have to face him. Or how unfair is it that these people can receive a reward during this tribulation that I can't receive because I was born in ages past?

  5. #185
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    Re: What Conditions are Placed on Us Gaining the Kingdom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    But their commission includes turning others to Christ also.
    Where do we find this? I don't see it yet.

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