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Thread: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

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    1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


    Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


    Pretty much debunks a Pretrib rapture, though of course, Pretribbers will be in complete denial about..

    Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, Revelation 19:14 is basically meaning, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14, the following...And the armies(those which had been sleeping in Jesus, thus the ones God brings with Him) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    And not the following instead...And the armies(the Pretrib raptured church) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    It's really this simple IMO, yet Pretribbers make it into a complex mess via their interpretations of these things.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Good post divaD.
    But sadly, so many have been caught up in the rapture deception and they are then blinded to the truth. No matter how many proofs debunking that theory, confronts them, they can't see it.

    On the 'Those who know what is right' thread, I asked for those who oppose the scriptures that say we Christians will go to live in the holy Land, to answer 4 questions. Here is my answers:
    1/ Why does God want His people in heaven? He has angels there to serve Him.
    2/ Who will go? If the rapture is before anything bad happens, peoples faith will not have been tried and tested. Judgement must come first.
    3/ How? People have to die first, as 1 Thessalonians 4:14 makes clear. Do not think 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is about a rapture. That prophecy is about the giving of immortality at the Great White Throne Judgement; when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15
    4/When? For over 100 years, so called prophecy experts have argued over pre, mid and post raptures. This confirms how the whole idea is a construct of the father of lies and confusion.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Good post divaD.
    But sadly, so many have been caught up in the rapture deception and they are then blinded to the truth. No matter how many proofs debunking that theory, confronts them, they can't see it.

    On the 'Those who know what is right' thread, I asked for those who oppose the scriptures that say we Christians will go to live in the holy Land, to answer 4 questions. Here is my answers:
    1/ Why does God want His people in heaven? He has angels there to serve Him.
    2/ Who will go? If the rapture is before anything bad happens, peoples faith will not have been tried and tested. Judgement must come first.
    3/ How? People have to die first, as 1 Thessalonians 4:14 makes clear. Do not think 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is about a rapture. That prophecy is about the giving of immortality at the Great White Throne Judgement; when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15
    4/When? For over 100 years, so called prophecy experts have argued over pre, mid and post raptures. This confirms how the whole idea is a construct of the father of lies and confusion.

    And a grand deception it is.. i believe it was hatched starting with The Council of Trent in order to thwart the reformation...


    Jude
    II Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

    4
    In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



  4. #4

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


    Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


    Pretty much debunks a Pretrib rapture, though of course, Pretribbers will be in complete denial about..

    Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, Revelation 19:14 is basically meaning, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14, the following...And the armies(those which had been sleeping in Jesus, thus the ones God brings with Him) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    And not the following instead...And the armies(the Pretrib raptured church) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    It's really this simple IMO, yet Pretribbers make it into a complex mess via their interpretations of these things.
    More baloney from the Anti-pretrib-Rapture camp.

    Unless there will be a pretribulation Rapture, there can be no saints in Heaven to become the Lamb s Wife at the Marriage of the Lamb.

    And unless the Marriage of the Lamb is accomplished, there can be no Christ descending from Heaven with all His saints and angels.

    The fine linen, white and clean, represents both the imputed and the imparted righteousness of the saints in Heaven, who become the Lamb s Wife, and then descend as the armies from Heaven.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    More baloney from the Anti-pretrib-Rapture camp.

    Unless there will be a pretribulation Rapture, there can be no saints in Heaven to become the Lamb s Wife at the Marriage of the Lamb.

    And unless the Marriage of the Lamb is accomplished, there can be no Christ descending from Heaven with all His saints and angels.

    The fine linen, white and clean, represents both the imputed and the imparted righteousness of the saints in Heaven, who become the Lamb s Wife, and then descend as the armies from Heaven.
    Did not Jesus say he would come to receive his own after GT.???
    Jesus comes in all his glory after GT....dressed for the occasion yes,.... and when he does appear ....we will be like him, having glorious attire fit for his bride. Its about resurrection the last day, not pre trib before the last day. One wedding , one Bride on the last day of this age for all the elect.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Debunking a pretrib rapture...

    The dead in Christ must rise first. When does the dead in Christ rise?

    Enough said

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


    Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


    Pretty much debunks a Pretrib rapture, though of course, Pretribbers will be in complete denial about..

    Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, Revelation 19:14 is basically meaning, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14, the following...And the armies(those which had been sleeping in Jesus, thus the ones God brings with Him) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    And not the following instead...And the armies(the Pretrib raptured church) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    It's really this simple IMO, yet Pretribbers make it into a complex mess via their interpretations of these things.
    So who and when does God bring those which sleep? Note there are two times which would be upon the 2nd coming as armies and when New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

    Do we all return as armies with Christ? No.

    Simply as the general resurrection of believers does not occur until after the battle of armegeddon. So then who could be the armies? The 144000.

    This is why it is important to see that these 144000 are first fruits of them which sleep and are raised before the others and are those which come back with Jesus only.
    A couple of things support this besides being first fruits. One we see these 144000 already with Jesus in my Zion prior to the battle in rev 14. And they are seen raised from the dead dry bones as armies in ezekiel

  8. #8

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Debunking a pretrib rapture...

    The dead in Christ must rise first. When does the dead in Christ rise?
    You did not debunk anything. All you did was prove that you failed to read and interpret 1 Thess 4 properly.

    1. The dead in Christ = the souls and the spirits of the saints who are with Christ in Heaven awaiting their resurrection bodies (see Hebrews 12:22-24 for details).

    2. At the Resurrection/Rapture (all one event and accomplished supernaturally within a nanoseond) these souls and spirits will be brought to join their glorified resurrection bodies, so that for eternity these saints will be in their "spiritual bodies", perfected, and in the New Jersusalem with God and Christ. So the resurrection happena first, and the dead in Christ rise first.

    3. Next, those saints who are alive on earth for the Rapture will be transformed and glorified, and rise to meet the Lord "in the air", and then be with Him eternally as perfected saints in glorious bodies. Therefore it is just a matter of sequence within the same glorious event.

    (This is the main "harvest" of the first resurrection, and then there will be the resurrection of the Tribulations saints after the second coming of Christ as mentioned in Rev 20).

    So kindly go back to 1 Thess 4 and debunk your own misunderstanding by carefully following the sequence of events. BTW Christ does NOT come to earth but comes "in the air" since He immediately returns with all these saints (both dead and alive) who will become the Lamb' Wife before the second coming of Christ to earth "WITH POWER AND GREAT GLORY", along with all the saints and angels.

  9. #9

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, Revelation 19:14 is basically meaning, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14, the following...And the armies(those which had been sleeping in Jesus, thus the ones God brings with Him) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Those who are asleep in the Lord rise up first and are joined by living remnants to meet the coming Lord in the air. The reason is this! as Jesus died and rose from the dead, even so does God bring with Him those who are asleep in the Lord.

    That leaves us comforted because, whether alive or dead in Christ, we will be raised up to be with Lord forever.

    After the marriage supper, the FAITHFUL AND TRUE comes with His armies to make war with the beast, the false prophet and their armies.

    Because God judges and makes war in righteousness, the garment you wear qualifies you for a place in His army. Garment must not only be of fine linen for righteousness, but must also be clean for perfection and white eternal life and godliness.

    Not all saints have, yet, obtained the white garments. Before becoming white, a garment is first of fine and clean linen. Only those who wear white garments make His army.

    But every believer in Christ, including the dead one, is already raised up to God by the Christ. The believer may yet be conscripted into His army.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


    Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


    Pretty much debunks a Pretrib rapture, though of course, Pretribbers will be in complete denial about..

    Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, Revelation 19:14 is basically meaning, according to 1 Thessalonians 4:14, the following...And the armies(those which had been sleeping in Jesus, thus the ones God brings with Him) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    And not the following instead...And the armies(the Pretrib raptured church) which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    It's really this simple IMO, yet Pretribbers make it into a complex mess via their interpretations of these things.
    I think you have ignored the grammar and context, and been selective in one verse. Here is the context. 1st Thessalonians 4:13-14;

    13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."


    Verse 14 is an answer as to how the dead ("them which are asleep"), and who are in Hades in the heart of the earth, get to be part of an army that comes from above with our Lord Jesus. Paul says; "But I would not have you ignorant ... ". That indicates that an explanation to alleviate ignorance is about to be presented. The Thessalonians, having been taught by Paul very briefly (only about three weeks), were taught to watch heaven for the return of the Lord (Phil.3:20). But some died while the Lord delayed. The Thessalonians then asked, how can the dead "watch"? Will they not then miss the Rapture?

    In the following verses Paul shows how those who had fallen asleep will RISE (from the heart of the earth), then accompany ("together with") the living, IN RAPTURE to the air and clouds. In this way it will be possible for those who fell asleep to come with Jesus from above as Enoch had prophesied (Jude 1:14).

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    More baloney from the Anti-pretrib-Rapture camp.

    Unless there will be a pretribulation Rapture, there can be no saints in Heaven to become the Lamb s Wife at the Marriage of the Lamb.

    And unless the Marriage of the Lamb is accomplished, there can be no Christ descending from Heaven with all His saints and angels.

    The fine linen, white and clean, represents both the imputed and the imparted righteousness of the saints in Heaven, who become the Lamb s Wife, and then descend as the armies from Heaven.
    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    Assuming a Pretrib rapture, which means an event that precedes the physical 2nd coming, why will God be bringing those that sleep in Jesus with Him? To do exactly what? To accomplish exactly what? The above is in your Bible, correct? Does it not say this....even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him? Pretty far-fetched if meaning a Pretrib rapture, which would then mean the dead in Christ return to right where they already were moments earlier, heaven. Which then accomplished absolutely zero. Assuming a Pretrib rapture still, the Marriage of the Lamb would not occur 7 years prior to the 2nd coming. Rev 19 shows it to coincide with the time of the 2nd coming. So once again, assuming a Pretrib rapture, why would God need to bring those that sleep in Jesus with Him at that time? Let's see you Scripturally address and answer that. Speculating doesn't count, so don't do that and expected to to be taken serious.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think you have ignored the grammar and context, and been selective in one verse. Here is the context. 1st Thessalonians 4:13-14;

    13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."


    Verse 14 is an answer as to how the dead ("them which are asleep"), and who are in Hades in the heart of the earth, get to be part of an army that comes from above with our Lord Jesus. Paul says; "But I would not have you ignorant ... ". That indicates that an explanation to alleviate ignorance is about to be presented. The Thessalonians, having been taught by Paul very briefly (only about three weeks), were taught to watch heaven for the return of the Lord (Phil.3:20). But some died while the Lord delayed. The Thessalonians then asked, how can the dead "watch"? Will they not then miss the Rapture?

    In the following verses Paul shows how those who had fallen asleep will RISE (from the heart of the earth), then accompany ("together with") the living, IN RAPTURE to the air and clouds. In this way it will be possible for those who fell asleep to come with Jesus from above as Enoch had prophesied (Jude 1:14).
    The majority of Christians conclude the dead in Christ are currently in heaven, so that's the perspective I'm coming from. The text in 1 Thessalonians 4:14 indicates...even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    What should this be telling us? It's telling us that Jesus is leaving from somewhere, then going to somewhere, and the somewhere He is going, God is going to be bringing the dead in Christ with Him.

    Let's tackle the above one at a time.

    Where is the somewhere Jesus would be leaving? Obviously the same place He is currently dwelling, heaven.

    Where is the somewhere Jesus would be coming to? Initially it would be in the air in the clouds. But does He remain there in limbo? I wouldn't think so. So there's two logical options at this point. He makes a u-turn back to heaven, or He continues descending until He reaches the Earth.

    The fact God would be bringing the dead in Christ with Him, and if they were already in heaven to begin with, the logical conclusion is, He descends until He touches down on Earth, and not that He ascends back to heaven instead. And as He is descending, those alive and remain are caught up to meet them, the marriage of the Lamb then takes place some time after they are all gathered together, armies are then formed, then the beast and it's armies are confronted by Jesus and His armies.


    Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    This doesn't indicate when and where this takes place. All the text says is the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post

    After the marriage supper, the FAITHFUL AND TRUE comes with His armies to make war with the beast, the false prophet and their armies.
    Unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere, I think I tend to agree with the majority of your post. As to the above, this is one reason why I tend to think God brings the dead in Christ with Him. The question is, where does the marriage take place and when? Before or after those who remain alive and have met the rest in the clouds? And where does it take place like I asked as well.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So who and when does God bring those which sleep? Note there are two times which would be upon the 2nd coming as armies and when New Jerusalem comes down from heaven.

    Do we all return as armies with Christ? No.

    Simply as the general resurrection of believers does not occur until after the battle of armegeddon. So then who could be the armies? The 144000.

    This is why it is important to see that these 144000 are first fruits of them which sleep and are raised before the others and are those which come back with Jesus only.
    A couple of things support this besides being first fruits. One we see these 144000 already with Jesus in my Zion prior to the battle in rev 14. And they are seen raised from the dead dry bones as armies in ezekiel
    I can see why you might conclude this, yet I don't feel you are correct. Not sure how to address this atm other that that.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    When does the dead in Christ rise?
    That depends on who you ask. Ask that to a Pretribber and it won't be the same answer the rest of us would come up with.

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