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Thread: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

  1. #151
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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    The "rapture" pertains solely to "the Church which is His body" (not to all other saints of all other time periods, though there are indeed saints of other time periods: OT saints, trib saints, MK saints)

    1Th4:13-17 refers to a singular event.
    Yet the rapture has to FOLLOW after the dead in Christ rise first. How can the dead in Christ not also include those saints that die during the GT? Like I asked before, if this doesn't make them the dead in Christ at that point, who does it make them the dead in? satan? Surely not. And since you agree 1Th4:13-17 refers to a singular event, that means the dead in Christ can only rise once. And if those that die during the GT become the dead in Christ at that point, they have to rise when the dead in Christ rise per 1Th4:13-17. Otherwise it contradicts that 1Th4:13-17 is a singular event. The dead in Christ rising FIRST on different occasions at different times does not equal a singular event.

  2. #152

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You guessed it...it makes them the dead in Christ. Therefore the GT clearly precedes the time when the dead in Christ rise first, also clearly proving a Pretrib rapture to be false.
    These are the kinds of fallacies which get promoted by Christians because they ignore the context of Bible passages, and begin with a false premise.

    So divaD's false premise is that the Pretrib rapture is false. That is a preconceived notion which now has to be applied to Scripture. So the Tribulation Saints MUST become "the dead in Christ", and since the Rapture includes "the dead in Christ" therefore the Rapture MUST be after the GT".

    However, when we study 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 together (which is a necessity for the simple reason that both passages speak of the resurrection of the saints), there is absolutely no connection made to any Tribulation period, including the Great Tribulation. Why? Simply because those are periods for the judgment of the unbelieving and the ungodly, and have nothing to do with the Church.

    Therefore "the dead in Christ" refers to those who are resurrected in Phase II of the first resurrection, while the Tribulation Saints are resurrected in Phase III of the first resurrection. How do we know that there is a distinction between these two groups? Well here is the answer:

    ...the souls of them that were beheaded...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years... This is the first resurrection. (Rev 20)

    So what do we learn from this and the other passages referred to:

    1. Paul does not say in 1 Cor 15 that all those who are resurrected were beheaded.

    2. Paul does not say in 1 Thess 4 that "the dead in Christ" were beheaded.

    3. Therefore we may safely conclude that the Church at the Resurrection/Rapture does not consist of beheaded believers from the reign of the Antichrist.

    4. When we come to Rev 20, "the souls of them which were beheaded" is connected with "they lived" and "the first resurrection". So the only way to reconcile the reference to the first resurrection here with the Resurrection/Rapture is to recognize that there are THREE PHASES to the first resurrection, and this is clearly shown in Scripture (which I already presented from 1 Cor 15:22-24):

    THE RESURRECTION RESEMBLES A HEBREW HARVEST

    PHASE I (first fruits) -- Christ the first fruits

    PHASE II (harvest) -- they that are Christ's at His coming (the Church)

    PHASE III (gleanings) -- then cometh the end (Tribulation Saints)

  3. #153
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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Actually you can't make this argument because of 1 Cor 15:22. The passages say Will be made alive Tense: Future, and 1 Cor 15:20 Confirms Jesus had Already Risen Tense Present Passive.

    1 Cor 15:20 also confirms Jesus is the First fruit of His order specifically the firstfruits of them that slept( Romans 8:29 Colossians 1:18).

    Let me say it again try to follow the grammar of this Phrase.

    For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive

    Shall be made alive - Means IN the Future. All 3 resurrections are therefore in the future.

    http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-22.htm


    Notice the tone of the Last phrase in the passage and compare it to the tone found in 1 Corinthians 15:20(concerning Jesus having already been raised.)

    http://biblehub.com/greek/2227.htm
    http://biblehub.com/grammar/v-fip-3p.htm

    Idk do you believe that Rev 20:4 is the first resurrection that occurs in the book of Rev?
    You simply did not address my query. Why did the Bible mention only two resurrections if there are three?

  4. #154
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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Exactly David, I don't understand how you're not getting what you're saying and how it in no way disproves a pre-trib rapture or any rapture.

    If I were to die after the Rapture (since it already occurred) my soul would immediately Appear In Heaven. Which is exactly what Rev (Rev 7:9-17) (Rev 14:12-14) (Rev 15:2-4) (Rev 20:4) Show.

    They then come with Jesus (since their souls are with Jesus) and at his coming, he gives them New bodies which is exactly what Rev 20:4 explicitly states.

    Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    You're basing your argument on allegedly dying AFTER the rapture. My argument proves one dies before the rapture. The text says in 1 Thess 4 that the dead in Christ rise first. Seriously, how can that not include all the dead in Christ? How can that not include those that die in the GT? Are or are they not the dead in Christ at that point? If they are, they have to be included with the dead in Christ who rise first. That contradicts PreTrib, therefore proves Pretrib incorrect.

  5. #155
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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You're basing your argument on allegedly dying AFTER the rapture. My argument proves one dies before the rapture. The text says in 1 Thess 4 that the dead in Christ rise first. Seriously, how can that not include all the dead in Christ? How can that not include those that die in the GT? Are or are they not the dead in Christ at that point? If they are, they have to be included with the dead in Christ who rise first. That contradicts PreTrib, therefore proves Pretrib incorrect.
    Actually, it doesn't which is the point. You're not really offering proofs nor do you seem to want to address the bible passages that specifically speak of those peoples interaction with the beast who is only present during the GT.

    It's simple really if you were to die today do you believe you will receive the same rewards as the people who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name?


  6. #156
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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    What if God has revealed that there are THREE PHASES to the first resurrection, and we have simply not paid attention. Please note carefully (1 Cor 15:23,34)

    1. THERE IS AN ORDERLY PROGRESSION TO THE FIRST RESURRECTION
    But every man in his own order:

    2. AS IN A HEBREW HARVEST, CHRIST THE FIRST FRUITS
    Christ the firstfruits;

    3. THE CHURCH THE MAIN HARVEST AT THE RAPTURE
    afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


    4.THE TRIBULATION SAINTS BEFORE THE MILLENNIUM, "THE GLEANINGS"

    Then cometh the end,...

    5. THEN THE MILLENNIUM AND BEYOND
    ...when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


    Note: The second resurrection is the "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29) and has nothing to do with this.
    Are you saying this with Biblical certainty, ie, with supporting texts or are you just speculating?

  7. #157

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Yet the rapture has to FOLLOW after the dead in Christ rise first. How can the dead in Christ not also include those saints that die during the GT? Like I asked before, if this doesn't make them the dead in Christ at that point, who does it make them the dead in? satan? Surely not. And since you agree 1Th4:13-17 refers to a singular event, that means the dead in Christ can only rise once. And if those that die during the GT become the dead in Christ at that point, they have to rise when the dead in Christ rise per 1Th4:13-17. Otherwise it contradicts that 1Th4:13-17 is a singular event. The dead in Christ rising FIRST on different occasions at different times does not equal a singular event.
    The phrase "IN Christ" ("IN Him"...) is a phrase used only of "the Church which is His body" (Eph1:20-23 "when").
    It is not used of all other saints of all other time periods, but is a designation solely of "the Church which is His body" (which came into existence after His ascension and will be caught up to the meeting of the Lord in the air at the "rapture" which pertains solely to "the Church which is His body," not to all other saints of all other time periods: not to OT saints, trib saints, MK saints (born in the MK and come to faith [they are not "born" automatically righteous/'saved']... it would be silly, for example, to insist that the MK saints must be at some point 'raptured' to 'the meeting of the Lord in the air'. [Paul was addressing "to, for, and about 'the Church which is His body']).

    In the future, all things sum up in Christ... but presently "the Church which is His body" is who is said to be "IN Christ/IN Him"... other saints of other time periods "ARE Christ's".


    Rev mentions those who "die in the Lord" ('from now on' i.e. during the trib)... it says they are "Blessed" (they will be 'resurrected' to enter the earthly MK time period [they don't miss out on the MK]... the "Blessed" passages I've supplied in the past, regarding the earthly MK: Rev19:9, Matt25:31-34, Matt24:44-45,46-47, Dan12:12 (these don't die), Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, etc, etc).

    The "rapture" (caught up to the meeting of the Lord "in the air") involves solely "the Church which is His body" (whom Paul was addressing). As "ONE" (ONE BODY).

    (this is not "the guests [plural]" nor "the 10 or 5 bridesmaids/virgins [plural]" nor "the servants [plural]" [who never lift off the earth] of that particular future time period... and Israel, it says in the Isa27:12-13 passage paralleling Matt24:29-31, will be gathered one BY one to Jerusalem [not to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR]... and by angels He will SEND to do so--these enter the promised and prophesied earthly MK upon His "return" there [the righteous only, that is])

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post




    3. THE CHURCH THE MAIN HARVEST AT THE RAPTURE
    afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    This one confuses me since it implies two separate groups. How can those that are Christ's at his coming, not be the church? I have been under the impression this entire time, from my readings of the NT, that it was the coming for the church being one of the major reasons Christ will come again.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming(parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    1 Corinthians 15:23*But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(parousia).


    You would have us believe the following are not referring to the exact same event.

    that we which are alive and remain unto the coming(parousia) of the Lord.....afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(parousia).

    You would have us believe the former is referring to the PreTrib rapture of the church, and that the latter is referring to the physical 2nd coming when another group invented by Pretrib, thus this group not meaning the church, are gathered to Him at the time as well.

  9. #159

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    This one confuses me since it implies two separate groups. How can those that are Christ's at his coming, not be the church?
    Who said that it is NOT the Church? Quite the opposite. The main harvest is the Church. Please carefully review what was stated.

  10. #160
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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    There is NO evidence from Revelation 19 that the Wedding Feast is in heaven. Verse 7 merely says that the "TIME" or "ARRIVAL" ("erchomai" - Gk.) is at hand. But other scriptures indicate that it takes place on earth. In Matthew 22 the initial guests (who refuse to come) were Jews. They do not aspire to heaven. They aspire to the Good Land of Canaan. Then in Matthew 25:1-13 the Wedding Feast is "when the Bridegroom COMES", and we go out to meet Him. This indicates that our Lord Jesus is very close to the earth since He IS COME. The "meeting" no doubt is the raptue to the clouds and the air, not heaven since our Lord would have to return. Added to this, the Parable of the Virgins in Matthew 25 is "LIKE" the Kingdom of Heaven and we all know that the Kingdom of Heaven is for 1,000 years ON EARTH. Added to this, the army of heaven in Revelation 19 made of "saints" who had the right garment, and they are only raptured to the "air" AND "clouds" - not higher than the tropopause. This army does not then ASCEND. It DESCENDS for the great slaughter of Armageddon - Jezreel, a valley ON EARTH.

    (1) There NO evidence that the Wedding Feast is in heaven. (2) There are overwhelming indications that it is on earth and lasts the full 1,000 years of the Kingdom.
    He said that John was "raptured" to see the events, but this is not true. Just like Daniel and Ezekiel, he was on earth and in a trance, saw and heard God's end time plans. It is important to pay close attention to the visions to distinguish one from another since the events in the visions differ.

    In Rev 19 John saw TWO distinct visions. In Rev 19:1 John heard a great voice in heaven. It is the same voice that narrates to him what is going on in heaven from verse 1-10.

    The second vision started from in v-11, "I saw the heaven opened and behold a white horse..." In this second vision, John finally sees Jesus descend to earth with the saints - the same clothed in white linen that accompanies the King down to earth.

    Revelation 19 is very clear and unambiguous. If you insist that the Marriage of the Lamb takes place on earth when Jesus touches foot on earth, how do you explain the fact the raiment of "white" which symbolizes the consummation if you like, of the marriage between the bride (church) and the bridegroom (Jesus Christ) was already assumed when John saw the bride and groom LEAVE heaven for earth?

    Again, you cannot argue that the saints who accompany Jesus on his return are mere angels because v-7 places the church (wife) in heaven before the descent.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Once more my argument is based out of 1 Cor 15:23 and you have yet to address the fact that the Grammer in 1 Cor 15:22 puts All 3 Resurrection including Christ the Firstfruits as Future.
    The three resurrections doctrine is erroneous.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The three resurrections doctrine is erroneous.
    So Which resurrection do you believe didn't happen?

    1. Christ the First fruits,

    2. The one at his Coming,

    3. OR the One at the end.?

    Because i count 3 yet your saying the fact that Paul listed 3 resurrections is an Error

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The three resurrections doctrine is erroneous.
    There are three. Most do not see that the 144000 resurrection bedore the 2nd coming as they are also first fruits. Then there are two after christ returns ie the godly and ungodly

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    He said that John was "raptured" to see the events, but this is not true. Just like Daniel and Ezekiel, he was on earth and in a trance, saw and heard God's end time plans. It is important to pay close attention to the visions to distinguish one from another since the events in the visions differ.

    In Rev 19 John saw TWO distinct visions. In Rev 19:1 John heard a great voice in heaven. It is the same voice that narrates to him what is going on in heaven from verse 1-10.

    The second vision started from in v-11, "I saw the heaven opened and behold a white horse..." In this second vision, John finally sees Jesus descend to earth with the saints - the same clothed in white linen that accompanies the King down to earth.

    Revelation 19 is very clear and unambiguous. If you insist that the Marriage of the Lamb takes place on earth when Jesus touches foot on earth, how do you explain the fact the raiment of "white" which symbolizes the consummation if you like, of the marriage between the bride (church) and the bridegroom (Jesus Christ) was already assumed when John saw the bride and groom LEAVE heaven for earth?

    Again, you cannot argue that the saints who accompany Jesus on his return are mere angels because v-7 places the church (wife) in heaven before the descent.


    Matthew 25:10 *And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    11 *Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    12 *But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    13 *Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


    In this parable where are they when the bridegroom comes? Are they not on earth at the time? What happens when He comes? Does not those that were ready go in with Him to the marriage? Does not the text indicate that the door is then shut. The others that weren't ready, aren't they saying, Lord, Lord, open to us? Aren't they on earth when they are saying that? Doesn't it seem logical the Lord would be on earth as well? Who while on earth looks up to heaven, a place that can't be seen with telescopic devices, let alone the naked eye, then asks heaven to open up for them?

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    One passage says... But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not...while another passage says...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Shouldn't that be a clue that this is referring to the day of judgment?

    Though some folks wrongly conclude the KOH and the KOG are not the same thing, Luke 19 indicates the KOG/KOH is coming to the earth at some point.

    Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
    12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

    Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


    Clearly He receives the kingdom during the ascension between the 1st and 2nd coming. And notice in the above parable, once He is seen returning with the kingdom, there are no u turns back into heaven at that point.

    So basically I'm one who thinks the marriage occurs on the earth somewhere then, and not in heaven instead.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Saints are a part, not all of the Church. I know that He comes with His army (saints) according to Rev. 19:14. But, again my question, why think/assume that a resurrected believer in white, pure and fine linen garment raised up (1 Thessalonians 4:14) will be in His army?

    By the way, 1,000 years of the Lord's reign is not a literal count of as many calendar years. It means that the Father's joy, peace and righteousness in the Holy Ghost comes and is personified/made manifest on earth.

    If all the saints come with Him and remain on earth until Armageddon, will they return to heaven to become the Lamb's wife/bride (New Jerusalem) seen by John to later descend from heaven?
    Obviously, you are not following the sequence of events.

    1. Notice that when Jesus returns to earth, He's not going back to heaven? Ever!
    2. The Marriage of the Lamb takes place after Jesus returns to heaven with the risen/resurrected saints whom he welcomes in the clouds (1 Thess 4:16-17) Rev 19:7-8.
    3. After the marriage, the saints adorn white linen apparels.
    4. For clarity, the vision of the Marriage is separated from the return to earth. From Rev 19:11 sees another vision, this time, the actual return of the King with his saints clothed with the same white they were given after the marriage.
    5. I don't see any logic in your claim that the "saints are a part, not all of the church". There's certainly nothing in the scriptures that support this view.
    6. I am also not assuming that the saints are part of Christ' army; just stating plain Biblical truth available to all. The Bible says we shall reign with him as kings and priests, so why will it be impossible that we are part of his army? The battle is not carnal, remember?
    7. After Armageddon, Jesus and his saints retire to New Jerusalem which at that point descends to earth from heaven.

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