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Thread: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

  1. #166
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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So Which resurrection do you believe didn't happen?

    1. Christ the First fruits,

    2. The one at his Coming,

    3. OR the One at the end.?

    Because i count 3 yet your saying the fact that Paul listed 3 resurrections is an Error
    Jesus Christ, the Firstfruits:

    1 Cor 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    The sentence above is clearly in the past tense - Jesus has already risen and he rose alone. I already explained what Paul meant by Jesus as the "firstfruits", but to you, unfortunately, it's like water on a duck's back, nothing goes in. There is no church resurrection in 1 Cor 15:20, period.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    We have went over this same argument over and over and over again. My position for 3 resurrections is based out of 1 Cor 15:23.
    1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterwards they that are Christ's at his coming.

    If you actually paid attention to the passage, you'll notice it says "afterwards they that are Christ's (the church) at his coming. So if you make 1 Cor 15:23, the first resurrection, where do you place the resurrection in 1 Thess 4:16-17 since Rev 20 tells us there are only TWO resurrections?

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    There are three. Most do not see that the 144000 resurrection bedore the 2nd coming as they are also first fruits. Then there are two after christ returns ie the godly and ungodly
    So the Bible lied when it said in Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    This passage indicates that the next, will occur AFTER the millennium and we know that no "saint" will be left out of the joy of reigning with Christ in that period. Clearly, only the wicked will rise 1000 years later.

    So please explain how your theory of the 144,000 makes a different resurrection that is not recording in scripture?

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So if you make 1 Cor 15:23, the first resurrection, where do you place the resurrection in 1 Thess 4:16-17 since Rev 20 tells us there are only TWO resurrections?

    Great question. I can almost bet PreTribbers will come up with something. The question is, what they come up with, does it adequately answer the question? Probably to them it does, but to some of the rest of us, highly unlikely that it does.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Jesus Christ, the Firstfruits:

    1 Cor 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    The sentence above is clearly in the past tense - Jesus has already risen and he rose alone. I already explained what Paul meant by Jesus as the "firstfruits", but to you, unfortunately, it's like water on a duck's back, nothing goes in. There is no church resurrection in 1 Cor 15:20, period.
    Correct Christ is risen Past tense. In 1 Corthians 15:20, he will not be "made alive" in the future as 1 Corthians 15:22 says Period.

    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Be made alive is Future tense.

    You have not one time addressed this fact.

  6. #171
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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterwards they that are Christ's at his coming.

    If you actually paid attention to the passage, you'll notice it says "afterwards they that are Christ's (the church) at his coming. So if you make 1 Cor 15:23, the first resurrection, where do you place the resurrection in 1 Thess 4:16-17 since Rev 20 tells us there are only TWO resurrections?
    Sorry i believe Christ was raised from the dead (in the past). I don't believe he will be Made alive "in the future". Also i see no mention in Revelation that there is only 2 Resurrections, if i count the 2W i see 3 Resurrections in the book of Revelation itself and clearly the Resurrection of Christ in not counted their either..

  7. #172

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    So basically I'm one who thinks the marriage occurs on the earth somewhere then, and not in heaven instead.
    The "marriage" itself (per Rev19:7) is "aorist tense" ('already happened' at the time this refers to... that is, in heaven when Jesus is still there)... however, the "marriage feast/supper" (which is the context of Matt25:1-13 [see Matt25:10nasb, for example], as well as Matt22:9-14nasb) as mentioned in Rev19:9 is NOT "aorist" (IT has NOT 'already happened' at the time of the Rev 19 events), but is where He is now headed down to (i.e. the earthly MK upon His "return" to the earth, Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, for example, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." [as an already-wed Bridegroom!] THEN the meal [the promised and prophesied earthly MK]; the "marriage" itself is distinct from "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" )



    Study the two different "with" words I've mentioned before:

    -- "and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 (denoting "union")] the Lord" (this is at our rapture [pertaining to 'the Church which is His body' only (singular entity: the 'ONE BODY'--singular "a chaste virgin" of 2Cor11:2)])

    --"and they that were ready went in WITH [G3326 'accompanying'] Him to/into the wedding feast" [the earthly MK, commencing upon His "return" to the earth] (this context pertains to the "plural virgins" of Matt25)

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sorry i believe CHrist was raised from the dead (in the past). I don't believe he will be Made alive "in the future".
    This is certainly the correct way to understand it. I'll give you that. What's in question here then, is not verse 20, but is verse 23, meaning in 1 Cor 15.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    The "marriage" itself (per Rev19:7) is "aorist tense" ('already happened' at the time this refers to... that is, in heaven when Jesus is still there)... however, the "marriage feast/supper" (which is the context of Matt25:1-13 [see Matt25:10nasb, for example], as well as Matt22:9-14nasb) as mentioned in Rev19:9 is NOT "aorist" (IT has NOT 'already happened' at the time of the Rev 19 events), but is where He is now headed down to (i.e. the earthly MK upon His "return" to the earth, Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, for example, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." [as an already-wed Bridegroom!] THEN the meal [the promised and prophesied earthly MK])
    Interesting points. Let me think on it a bit. In the meantime, this fits with another post I had made earlier. Wonder if you had seen that post and what are your thoughts on that post? Meaning post #70.

    That post #70 as follows....


    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Here's something I was pondering earlier this morning.


    Luke 12:22 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.

    Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

    Luke 12:35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
    36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
    37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
    38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
    39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
    40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.


    According to verse 22 it is His disciples that are being addressed. That should mean in verse 36, ye yourselves are meaning His disciples.

    Verses 36-40 are all referring to the same ones, and that verse 22 already establishes that it is referring to His disciples, His servants. But not just His servants back then, but His servants in general, which would include His servants for the past 2000 years.

    Are His disciples, His servants, the church or not? The reason I ask that, isn't the text indicating the Lord returns for His servants, such as His disciples, after the wedding? And ye yourselves(meaning His disciples according to verse 22) like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Matthew 25:10 *And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    11 *Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    12 *But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
    13 *Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


    In this parable where are they when the bridegroom comes? Are they not on earth at the time? What happens when He comes? Does not those that were ready go in with Him to the marriage? Does not the text indicate that the door is then shut. The others that weren't ready, aren't they saying, Lord, Lord, open to us? Aren't they on earth when they are saying that? Doesn't it seem logical the Lord would be on earth as well? Who while on earth looks up to heaven, a place that can't be seen with telescopic devices, let alone the naked eye, then asks heaven to open up for them?

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    One passage says... But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not...while another passage says...I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Shouldn't that be a clue that this is referring to the day of judgment?

    Though some folks wrongly conclude the KOH and the KOG are not the same thing, Luke 19 indicates the KOG/KOH is coming to the earth at some point.

    Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
    12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

    Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.


    Clearly He receives the kingdom during the ascension between the 1st and 2nd coming. And notice in the above parable, once He is seen returning with the kingdom, there are no u turns back into heaven at that point.

    So basically I'm one who thinks the marriage occurs on the earth somewhere then, and not in heaven instead.
    I posed genuine questions you must answer to prove that the Marriage takes place on earth. It makes no sense to skirt around the facts that prove you wrong and then present a bunch of ill-interpreted passages that doesn't help your case in an effort to prove you're right. So kindly address the following:

    1. If the marriage is on earth, then explain why the church arrayed in white is seen accompanying the King down to earth?
    2. The first event on earth AFTER Jesus returns is Armageddon - therefore if the white raiment was given the saints after Armageddon, then I will believe the marriage is on earth.

    In Matt 25:11-13, the virgins that get looked out represent those that miss the rapture. The moral of the parable is akin to "seek the Lord when he can be found", for once the rapture/resurrection occurs, the DOOR is shut!

    Your interpretation of the five lost virgins is so out place, one would think you are referring to a literal door closed on them. Where in scripture did you read that Christ "will receive the kingdom during the ascension (or did you mean descent) between the 1st and 2nd coming"? Nowhere in Revelation did John say Jesus was "returning with the Kingdom"? Rather, John said in v-16 that his vesture was emblazoned with the word KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORD, that's not the kingdom, is it?

    We are told that the kingdom of God is not built by hand. IOW, it descends from heaven - the New Jerusalem. I don't want to go into "when" it comes down as it would amount to digressing from the topic on the table.

  11. #176
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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    The "marriage" itself (per Rev19:7) is "aorist tense" ('already happened' at the time this refers to... that is, in heaven when Jesus is still there)... however, the "marriage feast/supper" (which is the context of Matt25:1-13 [see Matt25:10nasb, for example], as well as Matt22:9-14nasb) as mentioned in Rev19:9 is NOT "aorist" (IT has NOT 'already happened' at the time of the Rev 19 events), but is where He is now headed down to (i.e. the earthly MK upon His "return" to the earth, Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, for example, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." [as an already-wed Bridegroom!] THEN the meal [the promised and prophesied earthly MK]; the "marriage" itself is distinct from "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" )



    Study the two different "with" words I've mentioned before:

    -- "and so shall we ever be WITH [G4862 (denoting "union")] the Lord" (this is at our rapture [pertaining to 'the Church which is His body' only (singular entity: the 'ONE BODY'--singular "a chaste virgin" of 2Cor11:2)])

    --"and they that were ready went in WITH [G3326 'accompanying'] Him to/into the wedding feast" [the earthly MK, commencing upon His "return" to the earth] (this context pertains to the "plural virgins" of Matt25)
    It seems to me that if you have a bridegroom and a virgin, or in this case virgins, this indicates a marriage is about to take place between the two, and not that one already took place. If the latter, virgins are pointless. Why would they matter if the narrative has to do with a wedding feast, rather than the wedding itself?

    My translation says it's the marriage. Doesn't say it's the marriage feast instead.

    Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.


    I don't see feast in the text.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sorry i believe Christ was raised from the dead (in the past). I don't believe he will be Made alive "in the future". Also i see no mention in Revelation that there is only 2 Resurrections, if i count the 2W i see 3 Resurrections in the book of Revelation itself and clearly the Resurrection of Christ in not counted their either..
    I don't the Bible version you read because you're obviously having issues with grammar and Bible language. For example, 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Is there anything "in Christ, all shall be made alive" that remotely suggest it refers to Jesus? So what's the relevance of "I don't believe he will be Made alive IN THE FUTURE"?

    Repetition gives me no joy so until you address Rev 20:5 I see no point in going around in circles.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I posed genuine questions you must answer to prove that the Marriage takes place on earth. It makes no sense to skirt around the facts that prove you wrong and then present a bunch of ill-interpreted passages that doesn't help your case in an effort to prove you're right. So kindly address the following:

    1. If the marriage is on earth, then explain why the church arrayed in white is seen accompanying the King down to earth?
    2. The first event on earth AFTER Jesus returns is Armageddon - therefore if the white raiment was given the saints after Armageddon, then I will believe the marriage is on earth.

    In Matt 25:11-13, the virgins that get looked out represent those that miss the rapture. The moral of the parable is akin to "seek the Lord when he can be found", for once the rapture/resurrection occurs, the DOOR is shut!

    Your interpretation of the five lost virgins is so out place, one would think you are referring to a literal door closed on them. Where in scripture did you read that Christ "will receive the kingdom during the ascension (or did you mean descent) between the 1st and 2nd coming"? Nowhere in Revelation did John say Jesus was "returning with the Kingdom"? Rather, John said in v-16 that his vesture was emblazoned with the word KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORD, that's not the kingdom, is it?

    We are told that the kingdom of God is not built by hand. IOW, it descends from heaven - the New Jerusalem. I don't want to go into "when" it comes down as it would amount to digressing from the topic on the table.
    I don't take the doors to be literal or anything. It's what is being depicted that is the point. It seems nonsensical for someone to be light years away, meaning in heaven, and that some are on the outside, meaning on the earth, trying to get into a place not even within reach or sight. Why not let Scripture interpret Scripture?

    Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
    28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
    29*And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.

    Here's another verse where Jesus says He knows them not. The same thing He says to some in the virgins parable. You don't think Luke 13:27-29 is occurring in heaven do you?

  14. #179

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    It seems to me that if you have a bridegroom and a virgin, or in this case virgins, this indicates a marriage is about to take place between the two, and not that one already took place. If the latter, virgins are pointless. Why would they matter if the narrative has to do with a wedding feast, rather than the wedding itself?

    My translation says it's the marriage. Doesn't say it's the marriage feast instead.

    Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.


    I don't see feast in the text.
    That's why I specifically pointed out the nasb version in verse 10 (for example), and also the Matt22:9-14nasb, where that passage says, "and the wedding HALL was furnished with GUESTS" (IOW, these aren't who He is MARRYING--this is the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVIES [which can be shown in the plural, see here: http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/25-10.htm ]).


    No "guests" are present for the more intimate "marriage" itself (pertaining to the Bride/Wife [singular] and the Bridegroom... only). In our modern day, these are held on the same 24-hr day.


    I'll try to get back with you on the other post... I'm leaving for work in a few minutes. Back later.

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    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't the Bible version you read because you're obviously having issues with grammar and Bible language. For example, 1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Is there anything "in Christ, all shall be made alive" that remotely suggest it refers to Jesus?
    Well that is the question i'm asking you, Since in the very next verse When Paul lists the "Order" by which all shall be made Alive you believe it clearly is Refering to Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So what's the relevance of "I don't believe he will be Made alive IN THE FUTURE"?
    Pauls Whole discourse From Verse 12-20 Is establishing the Premise for the Ressurection Of the Dead. He says because Christ is Raised (Past Tense) in the future We have a Hope of A resurrection of the Dead. But Each In Order. So the Ressurection of the dead comes in 3 orders : This is how I understand the passage, So in Verse 22 He Reiterates the Premise by One man has Come the Ressurection of the Dead, But Each in Order and then he lists the Orders, At the End: Death is destroyed therefore All are Alive.

    The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    We agree That when Death is "Destroyed" All Everyone from the Church and The Past ages and those Who were living during the 1000k is now Alive then NHNE = Where there is No More death and God is All in All.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Repetition gives me no joy so until you address Rev 20:5 I see no point in going around in circles.
    Not sure what you want me to repeat, what does the Word *First* mean to you in Rev 20:5, does this to you mean there was No Ressurection that Preceded this one?

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