Page 10 of 20 FirstFirst 1234567891011121314151617181920 LastLast
Results 136 to 150 of 286

Thread: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

  1. #136
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,683

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I understand this idea, but I showed you plainly that the people of Revelation 14:14-16 are the same ones of 15:2-4 and Rev 20:4.

    ALSO, A contradiction seems to pop up when you read Revelation 7 carefully.

    Revelation 7:1 CLEARLY STATES that "after these things" (After the first 6 seals are opened), then John watched as "Lo"or "Behold" or WOW!, Suddenly a innumerable throng of people Appear before the Throne of God Who have come out of great Tribulation. (Rev 7:9-17) Then the Seventh Seal is opened. There is a SEQUENCE here that can not be ignored...
    Once more i Agree all these people are indeed the same. These people are specifically noted as having Come out or be coming out(not by rapture) of the GT, those in Rev 14:12-14 also speak of people dying once more in the GT and Rev 15:2-4 and Rev 20:4 also note that these people once more specifically die during the GT and are not Raptured.

    (Rev 7:9-17) (Rev 14:12-14) (Rev 15:2-4) (Rev 20:4.) All refer to people who go thru the GT and 3 passages specifically say they die.

  2. #137
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    4,171
    Blog Entries
    30

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I am pondering that if the Appearing of Christ on the Clouds and the Gathering unto Him (Resurrection) happen at the 6th Seal in Revelation, why then couldn't the 144,000 be individuals who died young (virgins) throughout thousands of years be then chosen from the millions of faithful of Israel that rise from the dead (Israelites who accepted Jesus or have SEEN HIM in heaven and believed - John 6:40)? Then the Rapture happens after the 144,000 are Sealed.
    I suppose there is no logical reason why your proposal is incorrect. It has a few rough edges that cause me to go another direction. It seems to me that if God is raising the 144,000 from the dead, there would be no reason to mark them on their forehead for their protection. Secondly, Revelation chapter 7 begins with a holding back of the winds, which seems to represent a cessation of the scattering of the Jews among the nations. In that context, it seems more likely that these 144,000 are morals who have come back from exile and settled in the land of Israel.

    But I could be wrong.

  3. #138
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,239
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I suppose there is no logical reason why your proposal is incorrect. It has a few rough edges that cause me to go another direction. It seems to me that if God is raising the 144,000 from the dead, there would be no reason to mark them on their forehead for their protection. Secondly, Revelation chapter 7 begins with a holding back of the winds, which seems to represent a cessation of the scattering of the Jews among the nations. In that context, it seems more likely that these 144,000 are morals who have come back from exile and settled in the land of Israel.

    But I could be wrong.
    Any one of us could be wrong, and that we will take a moment to ponder another idea is Not a bad thing. SO I do ponder what other say, but I suppose we all take what we hear and interpret it according to how we understand the Word to say.

    What if the Resurrection and the rapture have a pause of X days or hours... 1 Thess 4 tells us that FIRST the dead are raised up. General teaching is that the rapture and the resurrection and the quickening all happen instantaneously, yet that word FIRST always bothered me... When you look at Christ's resurrection, you see Him raised, and not letting someone touching Him BECAUSE He had not yet gone to the Father. This seems to indicate he was still not glorified to me. Then hours later the same day He appears to many in a room and converses with them (NOT telling them to not touch Him...)

    So what if at the 6th Seal the Dead are raised, then for a few Days or hours the 144,000 are Sealed, then the Rapture? It just seems like a plausible idea to me....

    As an additional note: The resurrection could also then accept the idea of the Just and Unjust being raised, then only the Just being raptured. I am currently seeking the Lord on this issue, as I understand those verses and parables about the Just and the unjust being raised from the dead DO NOT MEET the requirements of the events of the GWT Judgement (2nd Resurrection.)

    I may start a thread about that...

  4. #139
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,239
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Once more i Agree all these people are indeed the same. These people are specifically noted as having Come out or be coming out(not by rapture) of the GT, those in Rev 14:12-14 also speak of people dying once more in the GT and Rev 15:2-4 and Rev 20:4 also note that these people once more specifically die during the GT and are not Raptured.

    (Rev 7:9-17) (Rev 14:12-14) (Rev 15:2-4) (Rev 20:4.) All refer to people who go thru the GT and 3 passages specifically say they die.
    You see the STATUS of the individuals (promised eternal life) But do you see the TIMELINE issue?

  5. #140
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,683

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    You see the STATUS of the individuals (promised eternal life) But do you see the TIMELINE issue?
    Do i see the TimeLine Issue for which view? I am Kind of familiar with the Pre-Wrath viewpoint, i guess i believed something similar at one point, Namely that Rev 7:9-17, was the Rapture, it wasn't until someone pointed out to me the tense of the word "Coming" out of the Great Tribulation in Revelations. 7:14 http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/7-14.htm

    So I believe these people Go thru the GT to make their robes, white similar to what is said about those in Daniel 11:33-35 and Daniel 12:10. As happening specifically during the Time of the End.

  6. #141
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,239
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Do i see the TimeLine Issue for which view? I am Kind of familiar with the Pre-Wrath viewpoint, i guess i believed something similar at one point, Namely that Rev 7:9-17, was the Rapture, it wasn't until someone pointed out to me the tense of the word "Coming" out of the Great Tribulation in Revelations. 7:14 http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/7-14.htm

    So I believe these people Go thru the GT to make their robes, white similar to what is said about those in Daniel 11:33-35 and Daniel 12:10. As happening specifically during the Time of the End.
    I agree with you about the Purging and purifying of the Saints. (Making them WHITE - or righteous) I believe Christ is looking for DOers of the Word when He comes, not just Believers in Him... The GREAT Tribulation will force all living Believers to STAND UP for their faith, and be faithful, possibly even to DEATH.

    Matt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    But the way I understand the GREAT TRIBULATION, is that in the timeline of events it is CUT SHORT at the 6th Seal (Darkening of the Sun and Moon and Stars). I imagine it this way.

    Ever seen the movie (THE PURGE)? Imagine that a proclamation goes out to the world that Christians are free game to kill and to plunder or to turn into authorities. Human nature makes it become a bloodbath, and then the blood lust takes over and anyone is free game to kill. If God did not step in, all flesh would parish: No flesh could live 3.5 years through a world-wide bloodbath...

    Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

    During this great killing Tribulation, "those of Understanding" will teach many and turn many to righteousness...

    Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Then the events of Revelation Chapter 6 Seal 6 happen in Matthew 24, right after Jesus says the GREAT TRIBULATION is cut short.

    Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    So at some point the Great tribulation will stop abruptly while a celestial event appears. This event announces the Appearing of Jesus Christ in the Clouds of Heaven. And then the RESURRECTION of the dead.

    If Matt 24:29-30 Matches Revelation's Sixth Seal, then the Appearing of Christ happens there too.

    Ultimately in this view, there is STILL a refining of the Saints, so it works even with what you believe, however you move the Great Tribulation to the end and ignore the CUTTING SHORT. (*Am I correct?)

  7. #142
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    16,813

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    (Rev 7:9-17) (Rev 14:12-14) (Rev 15:2-4) (Rev 20:4.) All refer to people who go thru the GT and 3 passages specifically say they die.
    And guess what it makes all of these that die in the GT?

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


    You guessed it...it makes them the dead in Christ. Therefore the GT clearly precedes the time when the dead in Christ rise first, also clearly proving a Pretrib rapture to be false.

    It is ludicrous to conclude that those believers that die in the GT, that they are not in Christ, therefore are not the dead in Christ. But if they are the dead in Christ, which of course they have to be, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 clearly proves the GT precedes the 2nd coming and rapture of those still alive and remaining on earth.

  8. #143
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    3,503
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    And guess what it makes all of these that die in the GT?

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


    You guessed it...it makes them the dead in Christ. Therefore the GT clearly precedes the time when the dead in Christ rise first, also clearly proving a Pretrib rapture to be false.

    It is ludicrous to conclude that those believers that die in the GT, that they are not in Christ, therefore are not the dead in Christ.
    I've been trying since yesterday to drive this point home so that JLU and others who believe the multitude are those that come to Christ after the rapture/resurrection has occurred. Their theory just doesn't add up since they can't explain when these saints rise from the dead to join the raptured/resurrected saints as we see them in Rev 20:4.

  9. #144
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    16,813

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I've been trying since yesterday to drive this point home so that JLU and others who believe the multitude are those that come to Christ after the rapture/resurrection has occurred. Their theory just doesn't add up since they can't explain when these saints rise from the dead to join the raptured/resurrected saints as we see them in Rev 20:4.
    Some folks, though as bright as they are, a lot of times their doctrines are far more important to them than the actual truth. Anyone who thinks that those that die in the GT are not in Christ, therefore are not the dead in Christ, who are they in then? In satan, thus the dead in satan? That doesn't sound correct. Clearly they are the dead in Christ, and that 1 Thess 4 indicates the GT has to precede when they rise. What follows the dead in Christ rising first? The rapture of those still alive on earth. Clearly debunks a Pretrib rapture then. And very clearly at that.

  10. #145

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Addressing that ^. As a pre-tribber, I see the Matthew 24:29-31 passage ("great trumpet") to be referring (not to our rapture, but) to Isaiah 27:12-13 (see "who" and "where")... and it was said to Daniel (OT saint) that he would "rest [in death] and stand in thy lot [that is, resurrect to stand again on the earth] at the END of the days [at the end of the days referred to in that chapter/context--i.e. at the end of the trib]"). So OT saints will be "resurrected" then ('stand in thy lot'). Yes, they "ARE Christ's".

    Also, Matt25:31-34 and Matt13 are both referring to those who are still living at the end of the trib (IOW, not being 'resurrected' nor 'raptured'... they remain on the earth (where Jesus has come [at that future time] to "sit on the throne of His glory" and all the nations gathered before Him [not 'UP IN Heaven']) FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom [their having come to faith/come to understand Jesus as Messiah DURING the trib (the Sheep of the nations... these have the ability to produce children/offspring... "[actively] fill the whole earth" Dan2:35 as compared with Gen9:1 as in the days of Noah...)], the MK aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His 'return' there]"). None of these passages is referring to "the Church which is His body"... (the "wedding" itself precedes "the wedding feast/supper" [which is the earthly MK]--Rev19:7's "aorist tense" versus Rev19:9's NO aorist [see also Lk12:36-37,38,40..."when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal (and the other mention of "return" in Lk19:12,15,17,19)])

  11. #146
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,683

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    And guess what it makes all of these that die in the GT?
    Tribulation Saints?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    You guessed it...it makes them the dead in Christ.
    I didn't guess this...

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Therefore the GT clearly precedes the time when the dead in Christ rise first, also clearly proving a Pretrib rapture to be false.
    I honestly don't know what your talking about here

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    It is ludicrous to conclude that those believers that die in the GT, that they are not in Christ, therefore are not the dead in Christ. But if they are the dead in Christ, which of course they have to be, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 clearly proves the GT precedes the 2nd coming and rapture of those still alive and remaining on earth.
    I don't think your thinking this thru Clearly, but thats ok, Lets take the verses i quoted in Isolation for a Minute, we have these people all clearly present in Heaven by they specifically arrive after being "Killed" not Raptured, this to me speaks of a specific time, For example lets take Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    As you stated these people would be called "the dead in Christ" but this blessing clearly does not apply to the Whole church age, it says "Henceforth" which means from that decree forward. What is the next passage we see,

    Rev 15:2 and I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

    Once more these peoples souls are Immediatly in Heaven playing harps and later in Rev 20:4 their souls are given bodies in the First Ressurection.

    So is this the fate of all members of the Church who died?

    If I died today do i receive the "blessing" would I appear on the Sea of Glass playing a Harp? Would I have gotten victory over the Beast (and his mark, number, and name)?

  12. #147
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,683

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I've been trying since yesterday to drive this point home so that JLU and others who believe the multitude are those that come to Christ after the rapture/resurrection has occurred. Their theory just doesn't add up since they can't explain when these saints rise from the dead to join the raptured/resurrected saints as we see them in Rev 20:4.
    It does make sense the Arrive in Heaven by dying not by a Post-trib Rapture. Once more see (Rev 7:9-17) (Rev 14:12-14) (Rev 15:2-4) (Rev 20:4.) All refer to people who go thru the GT and 3 passages specifically say they die. Later their souls Come with Christ and he gives them New bodies at the first Ressurection.

  13. #148
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Outside of the box. Where else?
    Posts
    16,813

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    To further add to my last cpl of posts. It's pretty silly to think, and I think even Pretribbers would agree, that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 happens on two different occasions. Clearly it only happens one time, thus not on two different occasions, and that if those that die during the GT become the dead in Christ at that point, when the dead in Christ rise first, it has to include those that died during the GT. Pretty elementary. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. What is that telling us then? A PreTrib rapture is false. No denying it, though some clearly still will.

  14. #149

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    To further add to my last cpl of posts. It's pretty silly to think, and I think even Pretribbers would agree, that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 happens on two different occasions. Clearly it only happens one time, thus not on two different occasions, and that if those that die during the GT become the dead in Christ at that point, when the dead in Christ rise first, it has to include those that died during the GT. Pretty elementary. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. What is that telling us then? A PreTrib rapture is false. No denying it, though some clearly still will.
    The "rapture" pertains solely to "the Church which is His body" (not to all other saints of all other time periods, though there are indeed saints of other time periods: OT saints, trib saints, MK saints)

    1Th4:13-17 refers to a singular event.

  15. #150
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    2,683

    Re: 1 Thess 4:14 explains who these are in Revelation 19:14

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    To further add to ny last cpl of posts. It's pretty silly to think, and I think even Pretribbers would agree, that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 happens on two different occasions. Clearly it only happens one time, thus not on two different occasions, and that if those that die during the GT become the dead in Christ at that point, when the dead in Christ rise first, it has to include those that died during the GT. Pretty elementary. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. What is that telling us then? A PreTrib rapture is false. No denying it, though some clearly still will.
    Exactly David, I don't understand how you're not getting what you're saying and how it in no way disproves a pre-trib rapture or any rapture.

    If I were to die after the Rapture (since it already occurred) my soul would immediately Appear In Heaven. Which is exactly what Rev (Rev 7:9-17) (Rev 14:12-14) (Rev 15:2-4) (Rev 20:4) Show.

    They then come with Jesus (since their souls are with Jesus) and at his coming, he gives them New bodies which is exactly what Rev 20:4 explicitly states.

    Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 17
    Last Post: Aug 4th 2017, 09:55 AM
  2. 2 Thess. 2:11
    By Gussy in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 233
    Last Post: Jun 20th 2017, 10:36 PM
  3. Chuck Missler explains Joshua's long day
    By Enoch987 in forum Test Posts
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Apr 23rd 2017, 02:33 PM
  4. 2 Thess 2
    By Beckrl in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: Jan 28th 2010, 11:31 PM
  5. Discussion 2 Thess 2:6-7
    By Beckrl in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: Jun 28th 2009, 10:47 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •