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Thread: Is there a need for a future temple?

  1. #91

    Re: Is there a need for a future temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    I am not referring to national Israel that is in the Middle East. In godliness, Israel encapsulates all the people whose fellowship is with the Father and the Son.
    That is Replacement Theology, which I reject. This theology has a long history and tradition within the Church. So we're not likely to solve this problem in a moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious
    Not so!
    Did Jesus not sort of "toast" his death on Passover when he established the Communion Service? Was his death, therefore, not the initiation of the New Covenant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious
    If, as you claim, the kingdom won't come until Christ returns, how come Colossians 1:13 KJV that declares:

    [INDENT
    Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:[/INDENT]
    Jesus' gospel, during his earthly ministry, was that the Kingdom was *drawing near.* This meant, in practical reality, that men could immediately begin to sign up for the Kingdom, becoming members of that Kingdom. It did not mean that the Kingdom would therefore immediately come. On the contrary, Jesus said it was wrong to think that his Kingdom was coming immediately. He did not immediately seek kingship. Rather, membership in the Kingdom happens before the coming of the Kingdom.

  2. #92
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    Re: Is there a need for a future temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    There are many but I think it would be best to supply just a few here. Before I do that, it might be helpful to review Isaiah 1:10-26. In that passage, God laments and regrets the sacrifices and the festivals he gave to Israel, because while they are doing the sacrifices and festivals correctly, they take advantage of the poor, and the courts are corrupt. Just like some Christians today, these folks relegated devotion to God to special days and ritual practices, but the rest of the week hated their brothers and acted corruptly and contrary to righteousness. Compare this to a Psalm of David. I would recommend a review of Psalm 32 and 51. At the end of Psalm 51 we get a hint of the future.

    Psalm 51:
    16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
    You are not pleased with burnt offering.
    17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
    A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
    18 By Your favor do good to Zion;
    Build the walls of Jerusalem.
    19 Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
    In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
    Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.


    Verse 16 echos Isaiah chapter one, dismissing the sacrifices of those who do not have the proper inwardness. Verse 17 reminds the reader that God will not reject the inner sacrifices of a broken spirit and a contrite heart. At the end of the Psalm, David anticipates a future time when God will accept righteous sacrifices of burnt offerings on his alter in Jerusalem.
    You were right up to the point in red highlight. Contrary to your claim, David was NOT anticipating a future when God will accept animal sacrifices since it was ongoing in his time. Rather what David meant is that when Israel eschew their wicked vices and turn to righteousness, then will their offerings and burnt sacrifices become acceptable to God. This also aligns with God's rejection of ancient Israel's attitude to fasting.

    Isaiah 58:2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

    3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.

    4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

    5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?

    6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

    In verses, 6-9 Isaiah tells the people of Israel what makes a fast acceptable to God. This clearly agrees with David's lamentation in Psalm 51:16-19 as quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    In the book of Deuteronomy Moses anticipates a day when Israel will finally turn turn to God in repentance and he will circumcise their hearts. During that time, Israel will obey the commandments that Moses gave them.

    Deuteronomy 30:
    6 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. 7 The Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. 8 And you shall again obey the Lord, and observe all His commandments which I command you today.

    God says he will circumcise their hearts in the future when he brings them back to the land and they will observe all his commandments which Moses gave them thousands of years ago.

    Finally, Jeremiah records a time when a son of David will rule on his throne forever and we know him as Jesus Christ. At the same time also, the sons of Levi will also continue to offer burnt offerings.

    Jeremiah 33:
    14 ‘Behold, days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will fulfill the good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 15 In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth. 16 In those days Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will dwell in safety; and this is the name by which she will be called: the Lord is our righteousness.’ 17 For thus says the Lord, ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18 and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.’”

    Hopefully this has been helpful.
    1. The prophecy that God will circumcise the hearts of the people was fulfilled when the Holy Ghost indwelt man at Pentecost. Expecting it to be future is incorrect. Furthermore, only the hearts of those who believe will be circumcised. For example, the hearts of Messianic Jews are already circumcised as promised and as many come to Christ en masse in the end time shall also be circumcised of heart. But the *commandments* in the context has nothing to do with animal sacrifice. It is rather about living in righteousness according to Moses (Deut 28).

    2. I am not surprised that you made the common error of most scholars by misinterpreting Jeremiah 33:18 to mean the restoration of the Levitical priesthood and sacrifices. If you had reviewed the text diligently, everything in you would have screamed out that such assumption is folly. The Levitical priesthood and their sacrifices are now obsolete and ended at the first advent of Christ whom we are told, offered a one-off and everlasting sacrifice for sin. Therefore, a resumption of animal sacrifice would make Christ's sacrifice null and void - but thank goodness that nothing can nullify Christ's sacrifice on the cross!

    Another point for you to ponder is, what is the essence of "animal/blood sacrifices", and what does it mean to God? Isn't it appeasement for sins? Therefore since Jesus has taken care of that, in the millennium the circumcised of heart will have no need to plead forgiveness of sin because they are part of the saints and will live in righteousness. I think you are confusing praise and worship (which is what God requires from his saints - like they do in heaven) with sacrifices.

    So what does Jer 33:18 mean? This is not an easy passage, hence the tendency for many to interpret it incorrectly. Among the myriad of opinions out there, I like John Gill's better:

    Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me,.... The Levitical priesthood has been abolished long ago; that was typical of Christ's priesthood, and is succeeded by it; who is a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek; and who, having offered up himself a sacrifice here on earth for his people, ever appears in heaven, in the presence of God, on their behalf, making intercession for them; and as long as he continues to do so, which will be always, a man shall not be wanting before the Lord: to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually; that is, to present that sacrifice before him, and plead the efficacy and virtue of it with him, which was typified by all those sacrifices, and has superseded them, being much better than they.

    Some understand this of a continuance of Gospel ministers unto the end of the world, who succeeded the priests and Levites; but as they are never called priests and Levites in the New Testament; nor were they properly the successors of the priests and Levites; rather it may be applied unto all believers now, who are priests unto God, and offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Christ; but the first sense is best.

    Personally, I'm ever cautious when quoting these scholars as am sure you'll find some that agree that Levitical priests and animal sacrifice will continue in the millennium. I know enough to understand what is plausible and what isn't.

  3. #93
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    Re: Is there a need for a future temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You were right up to the point in red highlight. Contrary to your claim, David was NOT anticipating a future when God will accept animal sacrifices since it was ongoing in his time. Rather what David meant is that when Israel eschew their wicked vices and turn to righteousness, then will their offerings and burnt sacrifices become acceptable to God. This also aligns with God's rejection of ancient Israel's attitude to fasting.
    That's my point though. The time David anticipates is when the offerings will be offered by those who, like him, will offer them with a broken and contrite heart.


    1. The prophecy that God will circumcise the hearts of the people was fulfilled when the Holy Ghost indwelt man at Pentecost. Expecting it to be future is incorrect. Furthermore, only the hearts of those who believe will be circumcised. For example, the hearts of Messianic Jews are already circumcised as promised and as many come to Christ en masse in the end time shall also be circumcised of heart. But the *commandments* in the context has nothing to do with animal sacrifice. It is rather about living in righteousness according to Moses (Deut 28).
    While it is true that God circumcised hearts at Pentecost, the prophecy is set after the people return to the land, having suffered the curses, which had not been completed at the time of the Pentecost. More curses to follow.

    2. I am not surprised that you made the common error of most scholars by misinterpreting Jeremiah 33:18 to mean the restoration of the Levitical priesthood and sacrifices. If you had reviewed the text diligently, everything in you would have screamed out that such assumption is folly. The Levitical priesthood and their sacrifices are now obsolete and ended at the first advent of Christ whom we are told, offered a one-off and everlasting sacrifice for sin. Therefore, a resumption of animal sacrifice would make Christ's sacrifice null and void - but thank goodness that nothing can nullify Christ's sacrifice on the cross!
    I am surprised you would expect me to read my conclusions into a text (eisegesis) rather than understanding a text the way the author intended. (exegesis) And I don't agree with your premise that the animal sacrifices would make Christ's sacrifice null and void. Paul argued that the animal sacrifices were never intended to take away sins in the first place. And in the second place they serve a different purpose that will be valid during the Millennial period.

    Another point for you to ponder is, what is the essence of "animal/blood sacrifices", and what does it mean to God? Isn't it appeasement for sins? Therefore since Jesus has taken care of that, in the millennium the circumcised of heart will have no need to plead forgiveness of sin because they are part of the saints and will live in righteosness. I think you are confusing praise and worship (which is what God requires from his saints - like they do in heaven) with sacrifices.
    I like this question because it gets to the heart of the matter, and remains a valid question. I think God instituted the animal sacrifices so that his people might give expression to righteous sentiment. Even today, given that the blood of Christ covers all our sins, our impulse -- in the face of moral failure -- is to cry out to God for forgiveness. Jesus has already made propitiation for our sins and we already know that God forgive us, but we can't help how we feel about it. We take our apologies to God in private prayer and we plead for mercy and reconciliation even as we know we already have it. Just as with David, if we attempt to hide our sin or ignore our sin, we suffer physically and emotionally. We do well to confess our sins and give expression to our repentance and contrition. Offering an animal as a sacrifice is a tangible way to give expression to our contrition, not that the animal itself does anything other than participate in my expression of contrition.

    If Jews are challenged by sacrifices then Christians are challenged by the Eucharist, which is another opportunity to give expression to righteous sentiment. Why participate in the Lord's supper, giving a memorial to his death, if his death has already been resolved in his resurrection? Why remember his death? We already remember his resurrection through the celebration of Easter. Christians practice the Lord's supper for the same reason why a Jewish person celebrates the Passover meal. Both of these religious practices engage the church/synagogue in a communal memorial of a shared experience. For the Jews, the Exodus from Egypt; for the Christian; the exodus from sin. But in Jesus they intersect wherein the Exodus from Egypt becomes a fuller, richer, and more meaningful exodus from sin through the death of Jesus. The Passover lamb then was the means by which the nation of Israel was saved from the angel of death. Now the Passover lamb is a memorial of that event where God delivered Israel from the Pharaoh and placed her in the land of promise. The Passover lamb today is sacrificed as a memorial of that day. Likewise, we take the bread and wine as a memorial of Christ's death on the cross. Contrary to Roman Catholic doctrine, the bread and wine are symbolic, not efficacious of the grace of God and his son Jesus Christ.

  4. #94
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    Re: Is there a need for a future temple?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    That's my point though. The time David anticipates is when the offerings will be offered by those who, like him, will offer them with a broken and contrite heart.
    Yes, but it won't be in the Millennium as you stated earlier.

    While it is true that God circumcised hearts at Pentecost, the prophecy is set after the people return to the land, having suffered the curses, which had not been completed at the time of the Pentecost. More curses to follow.
    True. But the spiritual circumcision of the heart is here now and every Jew will receive it when he turns to Christ.

    I am surprised you would expect me to read my conclusions into a text (eisegesis) rather than understanding a text the way the author intended. (exegesis) And I don't agree with your premise that the animal sacrifices would make Christ's sacrifice null and void. Paul argued that the animal sacrifices were never intended to take away sins in the first place. And in the second place they serve a different purpose that will be valid during the Millennial period.
    While the OT texts are moot, Paul's validation of animal sacrifice in the Millennium will nail the debate for me. So please point me to where I can read it?

    I like this question because it gets to the heart of the matter, and remains a valid question. I think God instituted the animal sacrifices so that his people might give expression to righteous sentiment. Even today, given that the blood of Christ covers all our sins, our impulse -- in the face of moral failure -- is to cry out to God for forgiveness. Jesus has already made propitiation for our sins and we already know that God forgive us, but we can't help how we feel about it. We take our apologies to God in private prayer and we plead for mercy and reconciliation even as we know we already have it. Just as with David, if we attempt to hide our sin or ignore our sin, we suffer physically and emotionally. We do well to confess our sins and give expression to our repentance and contrition. Offering an animal as a sacrifice is a tangible way to give expression to our contrition, not that the animal itself does anything other than participate in my expression of contrition.

    If Jews are challenged by sacrifices then Christians are challenged by the Eucharist, which is another opportunity to give expression to righteous sentiment. Why participate in the Lord's supper, giving a memorial to his death, if his death has already been resolved in his resurrection? Why remember his death? We already remember his resurrection through the celebration of Easter. Christians practice the Lord's supper for the same reason why a Jewish person celebrates the Passover meal. Both of these religious practices engage the church/synagogue in a communal memorial of a shared experience. For the Jews, the Exodus from Egypt; for the Christian; the exodus from sin. But in Jesus they intersect wherein the Exodus from Egypt becomes a fuller, richer, and more meaningful exodus from sin through the death of Jesus. The Passover lamb then was the means by which the nation of Israel was saved from the angel of death. Now the Passover lamb is a memorial of that event where God delivered Israel from the Pharaoh and placed her in the land of promise. The Passover lamb today is sacrificed as a memorial of that day. Likewise, we take the bread and wine as a memorial of Christ's death on the cross. Contrary to Roman Catholic doctrine, the bread and wine are symbolic, not efficacious of the grace of God and his son Jesus Christ.
    What you are forgetting is that during the Millennial age, both Jew and Gentile in Christ (I lay emphasis IN Christ) will no longer be in sin or capable of sin. So the examples you expressed above are only applicable while we remain in this dispensation. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I believe that the Jew in Christ at that time, (even if he hasn't received a spiritual body) will be above sin. Unless of course, you believe the risen/rapture Gentile will still be susceptible to sin in the Millennium? Because if you believe they can't sin, I don't see why the Jew should be left out, do you?

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