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Thread: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Scripture — explained in detail by Paul — speaks of three spheres of blessing:

    1. Child of God (Regenerated, sins are covered)
    2. Son of God (Justified by faith, sins are forgiven, dead to sin, blessed with Abraham)
    3. Adult man (Full reconciliation (apokatallassoo), dead to sins and trespasses, blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ)

    You cannot apply what is said to group 3 for example to group 2 or 1. Faith, or believing, is what determines where you are on the road of salvation. Paul speaks not only to these three groups but also distinguishes between Jew and Gentile. Although in Christ there is no difference, while still living in the flesh there is. Circumcision is just one example of those differences. Not only that, Paul also worked in different dispensations, we should take that into account as well.

    So when we read Paul's letters we have to pay close attention to who he is speaking to make sure we have a Scriptural believe and honor God.

    Aristarkos
    OK. But what has this to do with the list of verses in my posting #17 (which we now discuss) that clearly show rebirth, and Eternal Life, are issues of faith, and not the other way around?

  2. #32
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    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    This concept will cause you problems. In Romans Chapter 7, Paul, a seasoned Christian and zealous for God, discovers that he is unable to keep the Law of God even though he wants to. There, he establishes TWO things;
    1. Sin dwells IN him and NO good thing dwells in his flesh (v.17-18)
    2. His body is a body of death with a Law of sin and death (v.23-24)

    But then he says that there is ANOTHER Law, which enable him to overcome this Law of sin, that is "the Law of Life in Christ Jesus", which is to be found in the spirit of man (8:1-6). Later, Paul tells us in Galatians 5:17; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

    I'm sure that I do not have to write any more. One can immediately see the dilemma and problems that the doctrine of a SINGLE nature in a Christian causes.
    Paul is not describing two natures. He is describing his current nature. What you think is two natures, is actual a single complex nature.

  3. #33
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    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I would hope not. If you read my text carefully you will see that it is reversed. Faith causes regeneration (Jn.1:12-13).
    I know that. And you are mistaken about it, as Duet pointed out. And while modern English dictionaries have a particular definition of regeneration, this is not the Biblical definition. To understand and ascertain the Biblical definition of a word, one must examine the passages where the word is used to see what the Biblical author meant by it.

  4. #34

    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I know that. And you are mistaken about it, as Duet pointed out. And while modern English dictionaries have a particular definition of regeneration, this is not the Biblical definition. To understand and ascertain the Biblical definition of a word, one must examine the passages where the word is used to see what the Biblical author meant by it.
    An interesting statement.

    A, "word," used only twice in the word of God. What does it mean where used? Does it have the same meaning in both places? Have we properly or improperly applied the same meaning to passages we assume are speaking of that, "word" yet it being not used?

  5. #35
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    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. But what has this to do with the list of verses in my posting #17 (which we now discuss) that clearly show rebirth, and Eternal Life, are issues of faith, and not the other way around?
    Being regenerated does not give one eternal (aionic) life, it just opens the door to faith in Christ and that gives eternal (aionic) life. Both the child of God (who believes Jesus is the Christ) and the son of God (who is justified by being in Christ Jesus) have eternal life. But are they the same? No, the first belong to the earthly sphere (hence Israel when the finally turn to the Lord and are regenerated nationally with the start of the Kingdom) and the second to the heavenly sphere where they will be equal to the angels.

    That is the normal road of salvation — through Israel. Now in the current dispensation, we as individuals can walk the road of salvation all the way to the end by grace. So regeneration is not our goal — it shouldn't anyway — but a means to progress to sonship and even to the position of the adult man. And that is the real issue of faith. Your list in post #17 mixes these thing up. In John 1:12 for instance the Greek doesn't read son (huios) but child (teknon). Acts 10:43 talks about the remission of sins which is what is part of being a child of God. The national regeneration of Israel is mentioned in the prophets for example:

    Isa 44:3 « ... I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: »

    Joe 2:28 « And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: »

    This is said about Israel, not gentiles see v. 27:

    « And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. »

    The heavenly sphere has been known through O.T. times, Abraham being the most known example, but stays more on the background. The heavenly sphere belongs to the Kingdom of God, the earthly sphere to the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Regeneration is about Israel as a nation, accepting finally their position when they accept the Messiah in His second coming. Applying this undiscriminated unto individual gentile believers is therefore wrong.
    Yes it is a necessary step to be regenerated by God, but that is only the beginning in the current dispensation, not the end.

    Aristarkos

  6. #36
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    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    An interesting statement.

    A, "word," used only twice in the word of God. What does it mean where used? Does it have the same meaning in both places? Have we properly or improperly applied the same meaning to passages we assume are speaking of that, "word" yet it being not used?
    All good questions. I will investigate further. I am taking my cues from Titus 3:5, where Paul associates regeneration with a renewal performed by the Holy Spirit. But perhaps I need to reexamine this issue. Anything else come to mind?

  7. #37

    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Both faith and regeneration can be viewed as preliminary to eternal life because they are acts initiated in the direction of Christ, who is the one who actually saves us from eternal death. All the saints in the OT era had faith without eternal salvation initially. And throughout the OT era men of faith learned that there is a spiritual life that must transcend our carnal, independent nature. We must rely upon our spiritual nature in order to ultimately achieve eternal life.

    Jesus' point was, I think, that if we are to achieve eternal life we must know about regeneration. We must know about and believe in the spiritual life that is to transcend our independent carnal life.

    When we do choose to live by our call to spiritual living we choose to be directed by Christ. He is the source of eternal life. In choosing him we obtain eternal life. Those in the OT era who chose the spiritual life were actually choosing Christ. Here in the NT era those who choose spiritual living are choosing Christ as well. So our choice to live a spiritual life, rejecting the carnal, independent life, obtain eternal life because they are accepting Christ.

  8. #38
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    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Being regenerated does not give one eternal (aionic) life, it just opens the door to faith in Christ and that gives eternal (aionic) life. Both the child of God (who believes Jesus is the Christ) and the son of God (who is justified by being in Christ Jesus) have eternal life. But are they the same? No, the first belong to the earthly sphere (hence Israel when the finally turn to the Lord and are regenerated nationally with the start of the Kingdom) and the second to the heavenly sphere where they will be equal to the angels.

    That is the normal road of salvation — through Israel. Now in the current dispensation, we as individuals can walk the road of salvation all the way to the end by grace. So regeneration is not our goal — it shouldn't anyway — but a means to progress to sonship and even to the position of the adult man. And that is the real issue of faith. Your list in post #17 mixes these thing up. In John 1:12 for instance the Greek doesn't read son (huios) but child (teknon). Acts 10:43 talks about the remission of sins which is what is part of being a child of God. The national regeneration of Israel is mentioned in the prophets for example:

    Isa 44:3 « ... I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring: »

    Joe 2:28 « And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: »

    This is said about Israel, not gentiles see v. 27:

    « And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. »

    The heavenly sphere has been known through O.T. times, Abraham being the most known example, but stays more on the background. The heavenly sphere belongs to the Kingdom of God, the earthly sphere to the Kingdom of Heaven.

    Regeneration is about Israel as a nation, accepting finally their position when they accept the Messiah in His second coming. Applying this undiscriminated unto individual gentile believers is therefore wrong.
    Yes it is a necessary step to be regenerated by God, but that is only the beginning in the current dispensation, not the end.

    Aristarkos
    OK. Thanks for the answer. We are so far apart that I doubt that further discussion will solve the issue. God bless.

  9. #39

    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    All good questions. I will investigate further. I am taking my cues from Titus 3:5, where Paul associates regeneration with a renewal performed by the Holy Spirit. But perhaps I need to reexamine this issue. Anything else come to mind?
    I might ask relative to Titus, What does regeneration allow washing of, what is washed away? And what would the cleansing agent be?

    Consider this verse. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5

    Is regeneration seen in that verse? Washing? What is washed away? What is the agent?

    Would that be what would save someone?

    What allowed the Holy Spirit to be poured out upon all flesh?

    “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:32,33

    John 16:7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

    What about? And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:17,18

    Washing of regeneration?

    Once again, twice is the word used.

  10. #40
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    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    I might ask relative to Titus, What does regeneration allow washing of, what is washed away? And what would the cleansing agent be?

    Consider this verse. And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5

    Is regeneration seen in that verse? Washing? What is washed away? What is the agent?

    Would that be what would save someone?

    What allowed the Holy Spirit to be poured out upon all flesh?

    “This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. Acts 2:32,33

    John 16:7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

    What about? And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:17,18

    Washing of regeneration?

    Once again, twice is the word used.
    It helps to remind ourselves that there are two main aspects or effects of sin: 1) the inevitable punishment for sin, and 2) the inevitable transgression. The death of Jesus on the cross solves our first problem with sin: the inevitable punishment. For those who identify with what the cross represents, i.e. I deserve to be condemned to death for my sins, God is willing to forgive that person and set him or her free from punishment.

    Not only this, but God's grace goes much further. Not only does God forgive our sins, he ultimately removes the inevitability that we will sin in the future. In order to accomplish this, God performs a miracle in the "inward man", internally in our inner being, which effects both our behavior and our disposition.

    Having come to a firm understanding of sin and how it impacts both our future destiny and our current life experience, we examine Titus 3:5 to see which aspect is the subject of Paul's discourse.

    In chapter 3 of Titus Paul exhorts Titus to remind the church that regeneration and renewal imply a profound change in behavior. We were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, and enslaved to lust, but now we are ready for every good deed. We are to abandon unprofitable behaviors and avoid foolish controversies and be careful to engage in good deeds and everything that is profitable to men. Here then, in this context, the washing of regeneration and the renewing by the Holy Spirit deals with the second aspect of sin: the inevitability of transgression. Having been regenerated and while the Holy Spirit continues the renewal process, the one whom God is saving is free to abandon foolishness and disobedience in order to engage in good deeds. Given his argument, we understand that regeneration and renewal touches the inwardness of the individual to such a profound degree, one is struck by the extreme and firmly established change that overtakes the child of God as he or she moves from the foolish, disobedient, and enslaved individual toward the wise, obedient, and free individual.

  11. #41

    Re: Is the Promise of Regeneration Enunciated in the Old Testament?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    It helps to remind ourselves that there are two main aspects or effects of sin: 1) the inevitable punishment for sin, and 2) the inevitable transgression. The death of Jesus on the cross solves our first problem with sin: the inevitable punishment. For those who identify with what the cross represents, i.e. I deserve to be condemned to death for my sins, God is willing to forgive that person and set him or her free from punishment.

    Not only this, but God's grace goes much further. Not only does God forgive our sins, he ultimately removes the inevitability that we will sin in the future. In order to accomplish this, God performs a miracle in the "inward man", internally in our inner being, which effects both our behavior and our disposition.

    Having come to a firm understanding of sin and how it impacts both our future destiny and our current life experience, we examine Titus 3:5 to see which aspect is the subject of Paul's discourse.

    In chapter 3 of Titus Paul exhorts Titus to remind the church that regeneration and renewal imply a profound change in behavior. We were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, and enslaved to lust, but now we are ready for every good deed. We are to abandon unprofitable behaviors and avoid foolish controversies and be careful to engage in good deeds and everything that is profitable to men. Here then, in this context, the washing of regeneration and the renewing by the Holy Spirit deals with the second aspect of sin: the inevitability of transgression. Having been regenerated and while the Holy Spirit continues the renewal process, the one whom God is saving is free to abandon foolishness and disobedience in order to engage in good deeds. Given his argument, we understand that regeneration and renewal touches the inwardness of the individual to such a profound degree, one is struck by the extreme and firmly established change that overtakes the child of God as he or she moves from the foolish, disobedient, and enslaved individual toward the wise, obedient, and free individual.
    A question for you and all who read this post.

    Titus 3:6 KJV Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    What made that, in bold, possible relative to the following statement made by Jesus? Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7 KJV

    What all is inclusive in the, "if I go not away," making it possible for the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, to be shed on us? Is what is stated in Acts 2:32,33 relative to, "If I go not away"?

    John 14:16 KJV And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    Is there a path for the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, From the Father through the Son unto us?

    What is it the earnest of?

    I believe, regeneration. See Matt 19:28 properly punctuated: And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    The second time it is used.

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