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Thread: Christians will occupy the holy Land

  1. #16
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    When Lazarus was resurrected, Jesus had not yet been glorified in His new Body. There is no way that He could do that ahead of time. YES, Lazarus was resurrected in the FLESH. You also mentioned these resurrected in the flesh by GOD the Father... (NOT BY JESUS in HIS new BODY...)

    Matt 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    So your argument is flawed. The resurrection Jesus talked about for us is the same as HIS resurrection, not that of others before HIM... Did Jesus receive a Quickened Body after He resurrected?
    Where did Jesus say Christians would receive immortality. or even spiritual bodies? Before the GWT Judgement.
    Your beliefs around this issue lead you to make statements that are wrong and unscriptural.
    You and I would both agree that 1 Corinthians 15 has everything to do with the resurrection. Right? And I am somewhat sure that you also see the New Spiritual Body in the same? Right? But if I hear you correctly, You are saying that this same chapter is speaking of a New Spiritual Body At the GWT Judgement time and not before?

    I will attempt to show how The resurrection and what I call the Quickening (changing into a new body) happen before the GWT.

    First, using the 1 Cor 15 texts,

    1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    To show timing, we have Christ (who did receive a new body, and is the firstfruits) 2000 years ago
    Then we have those at His coming. Whether you believe this is on the White Horse, or before, it is STILL way before the GWT Judgement.
    Then we speak of the end, when the kingdom is delivered up to God.

    There are 3 sets here, each at a different time. Christ, those who are Christ's before the Millennium at His coming, and those during the Millennium unto the end and everyone else. Verse 22 is clear that this is about being GIVEN LIFE. But I realize this is not enough to prove ETERNAL LIFE or a spiritual body...

    I want to focus on "THOSE AT HIS COMING"

    1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    This is clearly speaking of BOTH resurrection and a change in body (like a seed is quickened.) And like the seed idea, 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    So what we gather here is that when we die, we die as mortal, but when we are RAISED, we are given a Quickened Body, or spiritual... RAISED IN A SPIRITUAL BODY indicates that when the dead are raised from the dead, they have a new body. The raising of those at His coming, when does THAT happen?

    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    The rising of the dead happens at His coming. Whether you believe that is before or at the Armageddon, they WILL receive a new body when they are raised... Is that enough proof, or must I go on?

  2. #17
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    SoF, I stand by what I said in #6 :
    SoF; if your exegesis of scripture causes a contradiction between two or more passages of what is Written, then it is wrong.
    Your belief of having spiritual bodies before the Book of Life is opened at the Great White Throne Judgement, is false, because Revelation 20:11-15 and Rev 21:6-7 says that water from the spring of life is the victors heritage. No-one can be finally victorious until the end. Quote Keraz.

    You say: the raising of the dead happens at Jesus' coming. Quote SoF.
    We are plainly told which dead will be raised then in Revelation 20:4 ONLY the martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring with Him from where they are kept, under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11
    Maybe they will have a spiritual body then, but Rev 20:4 just says they are brought back to life and I do not see immortality conferred then, as the Book of life is not opened at that time.

    What Paul prophesies in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not a raising or a spiritual changing. It is merely a transportation, as those who remain alive after all that must happen before Jesus Returns, are taken to meet Him and then to be with Him for His Millennium reign. It is not likely, but still possible they may live for that 1000 years. People will still die then as Isaiah 65:20 says.

  3. #18
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Romans 4:13-25 is a very interesting and informative passage.
    I do not see any mention there, or anywhere else that proves a 3 way division of the Kingdom. Seems like something you have dreamed up.

    You are, like many others, still stuck in the belief of a Jewish restoration. Nowhere is it prophesied that any people will be redeemed because of ethnicity.
    I note in your scripture references above; that I do look up and check: your Luke 19 quote, finishes with verse 27 But as for those enemies of Mine, who did not want Me for their King, bring them here and slaughter them in My presence.
    Who spoke of a "three way division of the kingdom"? Who spoke of "redemption because of ethnicity"? C'mon brother! It seems like if you can't counter a proposal you just create a new subject and argue it although no one has mentioned it.

  4. #19
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Nearly 4000 years ago, God met with Abraham and made an irrevocable Covenant with him: that his descendants would inherit all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Genesis 15:6-20
    Later, after the incident at Mt Moriah, Genesis 22:15-18, God promised to make his descendants as numerous as the sands of the sea and they would possess the cities of their enemies.
    Immediately, we see the problem with those who say that the Jewish people are all of Israel, because the Jews, who are only 2 of the 12 tribes of the sons of Jacob, have never been really numerous, or have been conquerors. We see this difference again in the blessings given to the tribes by Jacob: Genesis 48 & 49 and Moses: Deuteronomy 33. Note particularly in Genesis 48:3-4….I shall make you fruitful and increase your descendants until they become a host of nations.
    This truth completely removes any idea of the Jewish State of Israel being the sole inheritors of the holy Land. In fact they only occupy a small portion of it and Bible prophecy is clear: because of their apostasy and sins, they will be thrown out. Jeremiah 10:18, Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7 Amos 2:4-5, +
    There can be no argument as to who it will be that does inherit all of the holy Land: it is those whom Jesus came to save: the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Matthew 15:24 They are the people descended from the 10 tribes that were taken into exile by the Assyrians and have lost the knowledge of their ancestry. Paul talks about this secret of God in Ephesians 3:1-6, where he refers to them as Gentiles. i.e. non Jews.
    The Apostles and Josephus knew where they were. Of course the Jews knew about their kin, as we see in John 7:35 and their Rabbis still speculate as to when the tribes will rejoin.
    The remnant of Judah, the Messianic Jews, will rejoin with their Christian brothers at the great spiritual regeneration described in Ezekiel 37, Ephesians 2:11-18
    Galatians 3:14 God’s purpose in all of this, is so that the Blessings of Abraham should be extended to the Gentiles, so that we can all receive the Spirit through faith.

    Ezekiel 11:15-20 The whole people of Israel [the 10 tribes] to whom Judah [the Jews] have said: The Land is now ours to possess. The Lord says: When I sent Israel far away around the world, for a while I was their protector and blessed them wherever they lived. I shall gather My people from their dispersion and give the Land of Israel to them. I will remove their hearts of stone and put a new spirit in them. They will be My people and I will be their God.
    This prophecy says how the Jews believe the holy Land is their possession. But the Lord will give it to His righteous Christian people, the peoples who have been blessed with prosperity and strength. They will be joined by born again Christians from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 56:1-8, Revelation 5:9-10

    This will happen soon after the forthcoming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath:
    Ezekiel 20:34 By My outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from the nations and gather you from wherever you are dispersed.
    Isaiah 41:8-10 Have no fear, My people - the descendants of My friend, Abraham. I have not rejected you, now I summon you from the four corners of the earth; I am with you and will give you strength.
    But not all of those whom God knows are actual Israelites, Amos 9:9, will be allowed to enter the holy Land:
    Ezekiel 20:35-38 I shall bring you out of the nations and I shall state My case against you. I shall make you pass under the Rod of Judgement. Just as I did in the wilderness of Egypt, so I shall indict you. I will count you as you enter, but those who revolt and rebel, I shall take them from the lands where they now live, but they will not set foot in the holy Land. Thus you will know I am the Lord.

    These are plainly stated prophesies, not yet fulfilled, but surely will be.
    I do not agree with your premise that God makes no distinction between Abraham's circumcised descendants and his uncircumcised descendants. The land promise was made to Abraham and his circumcised descendants, which is one reason why Moses and his sons were not allowed to enter the promised land without being circumcised. With regard to the promised land, God continues to draw a distinction between Abraham's circumcised seed and his uncircumcised seed. With regard to the blessing of Abraham, i.e. eternal life, he is the father "of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised."

  5. #20
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    SoF, I stand by what I said in #6 :
    SoF; if your exegesis of scripture causes a contradiction between two or more passages of what is Written, then it is wrong.
    Your belief of having spiritual bodies before the Book of Life is opened at the Great White Throne Judgement, is false, because Revelation 20:11-15 and Rev 21:6-7 says that water from the spring of life is the victors heritage. No-one can be finally victorious until the end. Quote Keraz.

    You say: the raising of the dead happens at Jesus' coming. Quote SoF.
    We are plainly told which dead will be raised then in Revelation 20:4 ONLY the martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring with Him from where they are kept, under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11
    Maybe they will have a spiritual body then, but Rev 20:4 just says they are brought back to life and I do not see immortality conferred then, as the Book of life is not opened at that time.

    What Paul prophesies in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is not a raising or a spiritual changing. It is merely a transportation, as those who remain alive after all that must happen before Jesus Returns, are taken to meet Him and then to be with Him for His Millennium reign. It is not likely, but still possible they may live for that 1000 years. People will still die then as Isaiah 65:20 says.
    Show me in Rev 20:11-15 where those who are raised receive new bodies. They don't. Show me how there is any LIFE in those who are raise at that time. THEY ARE DEAD.

    How does one get into the Book of Life? Yes, there is a book of Life there, but they are only JUDGED by it.

    Show me how the fountain of life is ONLY at the GWT in Revelation 21:6-7. This is clearly for the living now, not in the end.

    Proof:

    Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    Are you realy hanging your ETERNAL LIFE philosophy on this fountain that YOU place at the GWT?

    John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

  6. #21

    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Nearly 4000 years ago, God met with Abraham and made an irrevocable Covenant with him: that his descendants would inherit all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Genesis 15:6-20
    Later, after the incident at Mt Moriah, Genesis 22:15-18, God promised to make his descendants as numerous as the sands of the sea and they would possess the cities of their enemies.
    Immediately, we see the problem with those who say that the Jewish people are all of Israel, because the Jews, who are only 2 of the 12 tribes of the sons of Jacob, have never been really numerous, or have been conquerors. We see this difference again in the blessings given to the tribes by Jacob: Genesis 48 & 49 and Moses: Deuteronomy 33. Note particularly in Genesis 48:3-4….I shall make you fruitful and increase your descendants until they become a host of nations.
    This truth completely removes any idea of the Jewish State of Israel being the sole inheritors of the holy Land. In fact they only occupy a small portion of it and Bible prophecy is clear: because of their apostasy and sins, they will be thrown out. Jeremiah 10:18, Isaiah 22:14, Ezekiel 21:1-7 Amos 2:4-5, +
    The promise of national enlargement was never reduced to just two tribes, nor was the promise to include other nations later a nullification of this promise to Israel. Quite simply, God made *two* promises to Abraham, to bless and to multiply the nation of Israel, and to extend spiritual blessings given to this nation to many other nations.

    God didn't fail to multiply Israel. He did so. This was not a promised increase as through an extension from Israel to a multiplicity of nations. Rather, it was a promise to bless Israel alone, as a single nation. The promise to Israel that she would be multiplied exponentially certainly came to pass in the 1st phase of Israel's history, in the OT era. Under the reign of Solomon Israel was greatly increased, and even after the Persian Restoration Israel increased again, now called the Jewish People. These included not just two tribes, but all tribes of Israel.

    And I believe Israel will be blessed exponentially again, and will increase in population within the nation Israel. This will take place, I believe, after Christ returns, and the Israeli nation is not only set free from her enemies, but will also experience a spiritual revolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    There can be no argument as to who it will be that does inherit all of the holy Land: it is those whom Jesus came to save: the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Matthew 15:24 They are the people descended from the 10 tribes that were taken into exile by the Assyrians and have lost the knowledge of their ancestry. Paul talks about this secret of God in Ephesians 3:1-6, where he refers to them as Gentiles. i.e. non Jews.
    God never referred to the 10 lost tribes of Israel as "non-Jews!" Those Hebrews who were truly "lost" merged with Gentile nations and became part of those nations--no longer Jewish. Those Hebrews who went into dispersion among the nations who maintained their ethnic identity were never "lost," and so may return to Israel, fulfilling Jewish Prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    The Apostles and Josephus knew where they were. Of course the Jews knew about their kin, as we see in John 7:35 and their Rabbis still speculate as to when the tribes will rejoin.
    The remnant of Judah, the Messianic Jews, will rejoin with their Christian brothers at the great spiritual regeneration described in Ezekiel 37, Ephesians 2:11-18
    Galatians 3:14 God’s purpose in all of this, is so that the Blessings of Abraham should be extended to the Gentiles, so that we can all receive the Spirit through faith.

    Ezekiel 11:15-20 The whole people of Israel [the 10 tribes] to whom Judah [the Jews] have said: The Land is now ours to possess. The Lord says: When I sent Israel far away around the world, for a while I was their protector and blessed them wherever they lived. I shall gather My people from their dispersion and give the Land of Israel to them. I will remove their hearts of stone and put a new spirit in them. They will be My people and I will be their God.
    This prophecy says how the Jews believe the holy Land is their possession. But the Lord will give it to His righteous Christian people, the peoples who have been blessed with prosperity and strength. They will be joined by born again Christians from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 56:1-8, Revelation 5:9-10
    You seem to think the Christian peoples of the world *are* the "lost 10 tribes of Israel?" That would be absurd! Obviously, lost Jews are no longer Jews at all, and can never be recovered as Jews, since they have intermarried and merged in with other nations. But Jews who have remained separate in the nations to which they went were not lost, and can certainly be restored to their ethnic Promise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    This will happen soon after the forthcoming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath:
    Ezekiel 20:34 By My outpoured wrath, I shall bring you out from the nations and gather you from wherever you are dispersed.
    Isaiah 41:8-10 Have no fear, My people - the descendants of My friend, Abraham. I have not rejected you, now I summon you from the four corners of the earth; I am with you and will give you strength.
    But not all of those whom God knows are actual Israelites, Amos 9:9, will be allowed to enter the holy Land:
    Ezekiel 20:35-38 I shall bring you out of the nations and I shall state My case against you. I shall make you pass under the Rod of Judgement. Just as I did in the wilderness of Egypt, so I shall indict you. I will count you as you enter, but those who revolt and rebel, I shall take them from the lands where they now live, but they will not set foot in the holy Land. Thus you will know I am the Lord.

    These are plainly stated prophesies, not yet fulfilled, but surely will be.
    I'm unclear whether you think the Christians of the world are the 10 lost tribes of Israel, and will thus join Messianic Jews in a great return to the Holy Land? This reduces the whole Christian world down to a single nation in the Middle East. This, to me, is absurd. God made many nations, and not just one. His plan is to use the whole earth, and not just the Middle East.

    On the other hand we do read of a great restoration to the Middle East in the last pages of Revelation, where the New Jerusalem incorporates an area the size of the whole Middle East. So there is that. So I suppose my biggest issue is that your eschatology does not face the world as it is now and as it may be in the Millennium.

    God uses nations separately, and not just as in the Catholic Church--a single united political whole. These nations fulfil the 2nd promise to Abraham, and not the 1st. The 1st refers exclusively to the nation Israel, and to Jewish ethnicity. The 2nd promise involves the nations, who most certainly are not, in any way, spiritually or literally, the 10 lost tribes of Israel!

  7. #22
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    [QUOTE=randyk;3406462]The promise of national enlargement was never reduced to just two tribes, nor was the promise to include other nations later a nullification of this promise to Israel. Quite simply, God made *two* promises to Abraham, to bless and to multiply the nation of Israel, and to extend spiritual blessings given to this nation to many other nations.
    I'm unclear whether you think the Christians of the world are the 10 lost tribes of Israel, and will thus join Messianic Jews in a great return to the Holy Land? This reduces the whole Christian world down to a single nation in the Middle East. This, to me, is absurd. God made many nations, and not just one. His plan is to use the whole earth, and not just the Middle East. QUOTE]
    Yes Christians are from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9
    But God does have a secret; the ten tribes became scattered among the nations. Deut 4:27-28, Ezekiel 36:19-21, John 7:35 THEY are the 'lost sheep' that Jesus came to save and He did that thru His disciples, we Christians are the result.
    So it is far from 'absurd' to think we Caucasian people and now Christians, are actually descendants of Jacob, that God temporality divorced and arranged to spread around the world, where He blessed them with strength and prosperity, as promised. Now they [we] are backsliding and becoming godless again; soon to have a major shakeup! Hebrews 12:26-29
    The Lord’s people will enter the holy Land with joy and thanksgiving:

    Isaiah 35:10 The Lord’s people, set free, will enter Zion with shouts of triumph…
    Gladness and joy will come upon them, while suffering and sorrow will pass away.

    Psalms 149:4-5 For the Lord accepts the service of His people and crowns the lowly with victory. Let His loyal servants exult in triumph!
    Jeremiah 33:6 & 25 I shall restore the Land, My people will live there. They will shout: Praise the Lord of Hosts, for He is good and His love endured forever.

    Psalms 69:36 Those who serve the Lord and love His Name, will inherit the Land.
    Psalms 37:9 Those who trust in the Lord, will inherit the Land.
    Isaiah 57:13b but, he who makes Me his refuge, will possess the Land.
    Psalms 85:9 Certainly, His loyal followers will soon experience His deliverance, then glory will appear in our Land.
    Isaiah 61:3-6 My righteous people, planted in the Lord’s holy Land, to display His glory.
    Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the humble, for they will inherit the Land.
    Isaiah 29:19-22 The lowly and poor will once again rejoice in the Lord, sinners will be cut down.
    Jeremiah 12:14-15 The Lord says: I shall uproot those evil people who occupy My holy Land…. Judah may come back only if they learn the ways of My [Christian] people.
    Isaiah 32:15-20 The Land has been [will be] made forsaken and desolated….but in a very short time, it will become a garden Land, where My people will dwell in peace.

    Zechariah 9:16 The Lord will save His people like a flock, for they are like precious jewels, that sparkle all about His Land.
    Jeremiah 23:3-4 I will bring My sheep back to the Land, they will increase and be fruitful. I shall appoint shepherds who will tend them, they will live in peace.
    John 10:16 There are other sheep of Mine, not of this fold. I will lead them, they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock, one Shepherd.
    Ezekiel 34:11-31….You are My flock, the sheep that I feed and I am your God

    Isaiah 66:18b-21 I will gather My people from every race, nation and language. They will come on every type of conveyance, as an offering to the Lord in Zion.
    Psalm 107:1-3 & 36-38 Let those redeemed by the Lord, give thanks. All of His righteous people, gathered from around the world. They are blessed with peace and prosperity.
    Psalms 147:12-20 The Lord has brought peace and plenty to His Land.
    Praise the Lord!

    Reference: REB. Some verses abridged

  8. #23
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Show me in Rev 20:11-15 where those who are raised receive new bodies. They don't. Show me how there is any LIFE in those who are raise at that time. THEY ARE DEAD.

    How does one get into the Book of Life? Yes, there is a book of Life there, but they are only JUDGED by it.

    Show me how the fountain of life is ONLY at the GWT in Revelation 21:6-7. This is clearly for the living now, not in the end.

    Proof:

    Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    Are you realy hanging your ETERNAL LIFE philosophy on this fountain that YOU place at the GWT?

    John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    Jesus promises Eternal life to those who believe in Him. We receive it after the GWT Judgement.
    Yes, they are dead people in Revelation 20:12; every person that has ever lived and died, plus those who survive until the end of the Millennium, will be there. The Court will sit and the Books will be opened and those whose names are in the Book, whether dead or alive at that time, shall be changed as 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 prophesies. Only then Death will be no more.

    We, as faithful Christians, have the promise and the hope of immortality, but the reality cannot happen until the 7000 years is completed. Believing otherwise is to believe a lie.

  9. #24

    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Yes Christians are from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9
    But God does have a secret; the ten tribes became scattered among the nations. Deut 4:27-28, Ezekiel 36:19-21, John 7:35 THEY are the 'lost sheep' that Jesus came to save and He did that thru His disciples, we Christians are the result.
    So it is far from 'absurd' to think we Caucasian people and now Christians, are actually descendants of Jacob, that God temporality divorced and arranged to spread around the world, where He blessed them with strength and prosperity, as promised. Now they [we] are backsliding and becoming godless again; soon to have a major shakeup! Hebrews 12:26-29
    You are contradicting yourself. You say....
    1) Yes Christians are from every race, nation.
    2) the ten tribes....are the 'lost sheep'...we Christians are the result.

    If Christians are from every nation, they are not the 10 lost tribes of Israel! It's as if you think the 10 lost tribes of Israel are a dye that is dropped in a lake, diluted throughout the entire body of water. And do you think that lake will turn a color? No! Why? It is because the dye becomes so diluted that it loses its color. When the scattered children of Israel merged with other nations they became so diluted, so intermarried, so enmeshed, that they lost their identity completely. Only those who remained separate in Jewish communities remained Jews.

    Scattering Hebrew DNA throughout the world does not make the rest of the world equal to the 10 lost tribes of Israel! Rather, it makes an ethnicity cease to exist. Christianity is not a Hebrew ethnicity. It is a religious ethnicity with many nations--certainly not the 10 tribes of one nation!

    What you're saying is really Replacement Theology, in effect denying the promise God made Abraham concerning the nation of Israel. You are redefining "Israel" to mean something other than what it is--a real nation, based in the Middle East. You actually retain some real elements and add other "spiritual" elements. You say we as Christians are "Israel" who return to the actual Middle East, the Holy Land. But "Israel" is thus spiritualized to mean "Christians," while tracing actual DNA roots to a literal Hebrew heritage. That is absurd!

  10. #25
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You are contradicting yourself. You say....
    1) Yes Christians are from every race, nation.
    2) the ten tribes....are the 'lost sheep'...we Christians are the result.

    If Christians are from every nation, they are not the 10 lost tribes of Israel! It's as if you think the 10 lost tribes of Israel are a dye that is dropped in a lake, diluted throughout the entire body of water. And do you think that lake will turn a color? No! Why? It is because the dye becomes so diluted that it loses its color. When the scattered children of Israel merged with other nations they became so diluted, so intermarried, so enmeshed, that they lost their identity completely. Only those who remained separate in Jewish communities remained Jews.

    Scattering Hebrew DNA throughout the world does not make the rest of the world equal to the 10 lost tribes of Israel! Rather, it makes an ethnicity cease to exist. Christianity is not a Hebrew ethnicity. It is a religious ethnicity with many nations--certainly not the 10 tribes of one nation!

    What you're saying is really Replacement Theology, in effect denying the promise God made Abraham concerning the nation of Israel. You are redefining "Israel" to mean something other than what it is--a real nation, based in the Middle East. You actually retain some real elements and add other "spiritual" elements. You say we as Christians are "Israel" who return to the actual Middle East, the Holy Land. But "Israel" is thus spiritualized to mean "Christians," while tracing actual DNA roots to a literal Hebrew heritage. That is absurd!
    I realize this issue can be confusing. And because God means it to be His secret, that is understandable!
    I am not making a contradiction, because Christians do come from every race, nation and language. That is the result of the scattering of Israel around the world since 720 BC.
    There may be some Christians who have no claim to be a descendant of Jacob, however they will be the minority, because in order for God to fulfil His promises to the Patriarchs, they will be their descendants. God knows who they are. Amos 9:9

    Please cease touting 'Replacement Theology' as a swear word. That is not what I promote and it is your mistaken idea of the current citizens of the State of Israel, still being God's chosen nation, when Jesus says they are of the synagogue of Satan and He intends to slaughter them. Luke 19:27

  11. #26

    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Yes Christians are from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9
    But God does have a secret; the ten tribes became scattered among the nations. Deut 4:27-28, Ezekiel 36:19-21, John 7:35 THEY are the 'lost sheep' that Jesus came to save and He did that thru His disciples, we Christians are the result.
    So it is far from 'absurd' to think we Caucasian people and now Christians, are actually descendants of Jacob, that God temporality divorced and arranged to spread around the world, where He blessed them with strength and prosperity, as promised. Now they [we] are backsliding and becoming godless again; soon to have a major shakeup! Hebrews 12:26-29
    The Lord’s people will enter the holy Land with joy and thanksgiving:
    What is absurd is the notion that a nation dispersed and merged within the nations allows you to call those nations "Israel." This is an odd definition of Israel--certainly not biblical, and certainly not literal. It is a strange combination of literal and spiritual/symbolic interpretation.

    When a nation is dispersed into other nations, intermarries, and ceases to function as a separate ethnic group, there is no longer a "nation" there. So what definition of "Israel" do you call this--a smattering of Hebrew DNA sprinkled among the nations? That is neither an ethnic group nor a nation. Christian nations are *not* Israel.

    Furthermore, this dispersion of Jews among the nations, and their merger in with Christian ethnic groups, is *not* the promised blessing God gave to Abraham! It isn't any promise that God gave to Israel! The Dispersion was a curse, and not a blessing. And the only promise of restoration consisted of a return to Israel as a Jewish ethnic group, and not as a conglomeration of nations.

    As I said before God made two promises to Abraham, the promise regarding the single nation, Israel, and the promise concerning the spiritual enlightenment of the nations. These should not be confused, as you are doing.

    Using "Israel" as a symbol of the Church is Replacement Theology, and therefore wrong, in my view. And trying to apply *literal promises* of a return to Israel for an international group called "Israel" is equally wrong.

    The Church is not "Israel," and never has been, except when the Church began. At that time Christianity belonged to only one nation, Israel. And Israel at that time wasn't even Christian.

    Today, Christianity has belonged to many nations, and none of them presently is Israel. Today's Israel is not Christian. But I believe the actual promise is that Israel will become Christian, ie the true Israel and not some symbolic interpretation of "Israel."

  12. #27
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Jesus promises Eternal life to those who believe in Him. We receive it after the GWT Judgement.
    Yes, they are dead people in Revelation 20:12; every person that has ever lived and died, plus those who survive until the end of the Millennium, will be there. The Court will sit and the Books will be opened and those whose names are in the Book, whether dead or alive at that time, shall be changed as 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 prophesies. Only then Death will be no more.

    We, as faithful Christians, have the promise and the hope of immortality, but the reality cannot happen until the 7000 years is completed. Believing otherwise is to believe a lie.
    Sigh.... I guess I feel as you do, in that the person I am talking to (in the individuals opinion who is opposing the other) that you are not able to clearly use scripture to prove your point to the ability to satisfy the questions in my head.

    I do have an open mind, but your approach is not helping me. Yes, I am well studied in the understanding that I have received by the Holy Spirit. However I admit (as do many true biblical scholars), that I can make mistakes and can place my own thoughts into the TRUTH from the Lord. However, I try to stay in the Holy Spirit's guidance while I study. But There have been times on this site, where I gleaned amazing insight from some of these hard headed (said in love) students of the Word.

    So what I am asking is; Can you provide specific scriptures that prove we receive our New bodies at the GWT Judgement. Lay out your scriptural path to truth using scripture (not ideas), as I did trying to prove you get the new bodies using 1 Cor 15 verses.

    Can you please do that for me?

  13. #28
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Sigh.... I guess I feel as you do, in that the person I am talking to (in the individuals opinion who is opposing the other) that you are not able to clearly use scripture to prove your point to the ability to satisfy the questions in my head.

    I do have an open mind, but your approach is not helping me. Yes, I am well studied in the understanding that I have received by the Holy Spirit. However I admit (as do many true biblical scholars), that I can make mistakes and can place my own thoughts into the TRUTH from the Lord. However, I try to stay in the Holy Spirit's guidance while I study. But There have been times on this site, where I gleaned amazing insight from some of these hard headed (said in love) students of the Word.

    So what I am asking is; Can you provide specific scriptures that prove we receive our New bodies at the GWT Judgement. Lay out your scriptural path to truth using scripture (not ideas), as I did trying to prove you get the new bodies using 1 Cor 15 verses.

    Can you please do that for me?
    Keraz is correct we are all judged at the gwt. Believers first then the ungodly. 1 cor 15 does not contradict this. The saved and unsaved are raised on the same day per scripture. The last day. This occurs after Christ has returned and destroys the wicked on earth. Thus the godly overcomers are not raised beforehand. Note there is a prior resurrection of the 144000 firstfruits before christ returns those arw the armies which come back with christ at his return. The overcomers of the church return after the maariage dressed in white with new jerusalem new heaven and earth.

  14. #29
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Randyk, you are being pedantic about the word 'nation'. In our modern thinking it means an organized people, living within recognized borders.
    But obviously Jesus didn't mean it that way when he said; I will take the Kingdom from you, [Jews] and give it to a nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

    You say the church; that is every faithful Christian, not the established Church and is not the Israel of God. This surmise is not correct and here is the proof:
    The true Christian Ekklesia is Israel.
    Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: every faithful Christian person are designated by God to be Israelites. Galatians 6:16 The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.
    1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11
    Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9
    2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1
    Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1
    3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12
    Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25
    4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18
    Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9
    5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9
    Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10
    6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2
    Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32
    7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7
    Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24
    8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18
    Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11
    9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8
    Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23
    10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deut. 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10
    The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25

    The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the true Christian Church and the Israel of God are 2 separate entities. .

  15. #30
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    Re: Christians will occupy the holy Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Sigh.... I guess I feel as you do, in that the person I am talking to (in the individuals opinion who is opposing the other) that you are not able to clearly use scripture to prove your point to the ability to satisfy the questions in my head.

    I do have an open mind, but your approach is not helping me. Yes, I am well studied in the understanding that I have received by the Holy Spirit. However I admit (as do many true biblical scholars), that I can make mistakes and can place my own thoughts into the TRUTH from the Lord. However, I try to stay in the Holy Spirit's guidance while I study. But There have been times on this site, where I gleaned amazing insight from some of these hard headed (said in love) students of the Word.

    So what I am asking is; Can you provide specific scriptures that prove we receive our New bodies at the GWT Judgement. Lay out your scriptural path to truth using scripture (not ideas), as I did trying to prove you get the new bodies using 1 Cor 15 verses.

    Can you please do that for me?
    I probably can't.
    Only the holy Spirit can enlighten your mind and if you have chosen to believe unscriptural ideas, doctrines and theories, then He won't help either. Isaiah 29:9-12

    I see Revelation 20:1-51 and Revelation 21:5-7, as plain statements. Read it carefully and prayerfully, they are the definitive scriptures about the when, how and why of Eternal life.

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