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Thread: What exactly was/is/or will be the Abomination of Desolation

  1. #136
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    Re: What exactly was/is/or will be the Abomination of Desolation

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I don't understand how they conflict with what I said.

    The "tents of Judah" represent those in the lower social classes, and those who are not in leadership positions. Here God is saying that when the time comes to deliver the people, God will start with the lower class so as to avoid the appearance of favoritism or partiality. Remember, Jesus said the last shall be first and the first shall be last.

    This is because at the time there will be no one alive anywhere else in Israel. Everyone who did not come to Jerusalem to pray for deliverance will be killed by the locusts or the fires or the armies.
    Because you claim that the first place Jesus Lands is The MT. Olivite, but Those two chapters in Isaiah (among others) Suggest the Lord Decends from Heaven unto "Edom" and in Isaiah 63 it specifically says he Come from "Edom". Also i don't believe the "Tents of Judah" refer to social classes especially how a similar term is used in Zech 12:2.

    Notice the Contast.

    The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.

    So we Know what Jerusalem is but who is Judah?

    Once more i guess i'm trying to figure out how post-tribbers understand the second coming (and the events that occur during this initial coming), I know Amils decribe it as "Climatatic" but to me it seems like for them time stops at this moment and nothing else in the bible matters.

    But you seem to be well versed in your position.

    I'm just trying to understand how certain passages figure into your overall view based on what you outlined from Zech 14.

    But i'm sticking to Zech 12 and Isaiah for now.

    So in Zech 12 mentions the clan Judah spefically in verse 2-7,

    Verse 12-14 then goes on to mention other Specific families.

    So idk what you mean by the term tents of Judah refers to : those in the lower social classes.

    But maybe i'm wrong

  2. #137
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    Re: What exactly was/is/or will be the Abomination of Desolation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Because you claim that the first place Jesus Lands is The MT. Olivite, but Those two chapters in Isaiah (among others) Suggest the Lord Decends from Heaven unto "Edom" and in Isaiah 63 it specifically says he Come from "Edom".
    I looked again and didn't find references to a decent from Heaven in the passages you mentioned.

    In general, I am sensitive to the fact that when the prophets speak about God coming down from heaven, they aren't speaking literally about his translation from one location to another. Speech that employs locative grammar with respect to God is typically figurative language indicating the source of authority.

    Also i don't believe the "Tents of Judah" refer to social classes especially how a similar term is used in Zech 12:2.

    Notice the Contast.

    The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.

    So we Know what Jerusalem is but who is Judah?
    In my view, the contrast is between the country "Judah" and her capital city "Jerusalem." Typically, the capital city is the seat of government where those who lead the people are located and perform the business of government. This was David's home and the place where he ruled his people. So then, when Zechariah says, "the siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah" he means, "the siege against the government will also be against the people they rule.

    Once more i guess i'm trying to figure out how post-tribbers understand the second coming (and the events that occur during this initial coming), I know Amils decribe it as "Climatatic" but to me it seems like for them time stops at this moment and nothing else in the bible matters.
    I don't believe in a climatic coming as many understand that position. I believe the future will unfold just as the past and present has: a symphony of cross connected stories running simultaneously in support of a mega-narrative culminating in the inauguration of Jesus as king over a kingdom of righteousness, goodness, and truth, including but not limited to a restored Israel.

    So idk what you mean by the term tents of Judah refers to : those in the lower social classes.
    It appears that the term "tent" is used figuratively in the prophets to indicate a man and his family. The "tent" of David, for instance, is David and his family pictured as all living in one "tent." The Feast of Tabernacles (tents), for instance, involves a gathering of the people to Jerusalem whereby each family pitches a tent next to his neighbor and they feast together. The prophets declare that God himself will one day pitch his tent and dwell among the people. We know Jesus will fulfill this prophecy.

    The "tents of Judah" seem to be an expression indicating all the families of Judah, but by comparison to Jerusalem the capital city, the comparison is between the common people and the leaders of the people. (By "common" I don't mean "lack of refinement.")

  3. #138
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    Re: What exactly was/is/or will be the Abomination of Desolation

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I apologize. Apparently I wasn't clear, and I regret that. So let me start again.

    Zechariah 14:
    1.Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

    Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
    As is typical of prophecy, the prophet indicates the final outcome of events before he describes the situation that will become the cause of the final circumstances described here. After the city is ravished; after the coming war; after the coming of Jesus; after Jesus takes his place as king; then the spoil taken from Israel will be divided among them.

    For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle . . .
    This is not Armageddon. This war takes place before Jesus returns.
    My understanding is that the "nations" is the Antichrist's army. The AC is only enemy capable of mustering an army whose soldiers will traverse the earth. It is possible to assume the Arabs will be the nations, but with American influence, I don't see this possibility. This attack of nations against Israel will come at a time when America is no longer able to flex its muscles and that will only be at the time of the Beast.

    We often talk about the Jews fleeing to safety in the desert, but we forget that many will choose to remain in Jerusalem. The AC's army will prevail over these lot. I agree that the war will take place before Jesus returns, to be precise, it will occur 3.5 years to the day Messiah returns.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled
    This situation is parallel with Zephaniah's prophecy that the city of Jerusalem will be purged of evil doers. God will use these nations to purge Jerusalem of those who do not fear the Lord. But while the nations that attack Jerusalem intend to wipe out all the Jews, God has set his mark on 144,000 who will survive. The nations will plunder Jerusalem and capture many prisoners, but God will protect some of them.

    but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
    Unlike the events surrounding 70AD, "the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city." This means that some people living in Jerusalem will survive these attacks. Not everyone will be taken captive into exile again. They will not be cut off from the city. Her enemies are not able to kill and capture all of them. Someof them will remain in the city as survivors.

    Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
    This is Armageddon. Verse 3 indicates that the Lord will do battle with these nations. He physically comes to earth to defeat the enemies of God, subdue the nations, and lead them with a rod of iron. Verses 4 and 5 are not new events. They are reiterations of verse 3, adding more details. When Jesus returns to the earth to do battle with his enemies, his first stop is Mount Olivet. His feet touch the earth and the mountain splits into two parts, forming a valley. And the survivors living in Jerusalem come out to meet him there, escaping Jerusalem through this new valley.


    In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east
    This is not a new event; this is the very first moment the Lord physically returns to the earth. The actual battle of Armageddon will start momentarily after this.

    and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
    God creates a way for the survivors to exit the city.

    You will flee by the valley of My mountains
    The survivors living in Jerusalem, the holy ones, will escape Jerusalem through this valley to meet Jesus on Mount Olivet.

    Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
    Then, meaning, "In this way . . .", or "in that manner . . .", which is a summary of the previous statements concerning the deliverance of the people and the coming of Jesus when he physically returns to the earth.

    The Jews don't go to the gathering place DURING the 3.5 years, they go to the gathering at the END of the 3.5 years. The opening lines of Revelation 11 describe the holy ones all gathered in Jerusalem. They remain in Jerusalem, and as Zechariah says, "the rest of the people are not cut off from the city." Logically then, we understand that they are NOT on Mount Olivet for 3.5 years, they are in Jerusalem for 3.5 years. They don't travel to Mount Olivet until Jesus sets his feet on that place. THEN they go out to meet him there. But obviously he doesn't stay there. He has a war to fight, and it just so happens that the war will take place to the northwest of Jerusalem, in the valley of Megiddo, which is prophetically and ironically called "Har-Megiddo." The literally Valley is pictured as a mountain because the AntiChrist will have his base of operations there, (symbolically his "mountain") and this is where Jesus will war with him.

    Hopefully I have answered your questions.
    You asserted that the Jews will see Jesus face to face 3.5 years earlier, I'm glad you seem to have corrected that assumption. But if the Jews don't go to the gathering place DURING the 3.5 years, but at the END of it, then explain these passages:

    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


    Both speak of the same timeline that Israel will be in protective haven.

  4. #139
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    Re: What exactly was/is/or will be the Abomination of Desolation

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    My understanding is that the "nations" is the Antichrist's army. The AC is only enemy capable of mustering an army whose soldiers will traverse the earth. It is possible to assume the Arabs will be the nations, but with American influence, I don't see this possibility. This attack of nations against Israel will come at a time when America is no longer able to flex its muscles and that will only be at the time of the Beast.
    Don't leave out the possibility that Armageddon will involve only those nations that surround Israel, and not the entire world. And I wouldn't leave out the possibility that the beast will not be a one-world government.

    You asserted that the Jews will see Jesus face to face 3.5 years earlier, I'm glad you seem to have corrected that assumption. But if the Jews don't go to the gathering place DURING the 3.5 years, but at the END of it, then explain these passages:

    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    I think these passages were fulfilled in the first century. If I am right, the time references are symbolic and not literal.

  5. #140
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    Re: What exactly was/is/or will be the Abomination of Desolation

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Don't leave out the possibility that Armageddon will involve only those nations that surround Israel, and not the entire world. And I wouldn't leave out the possibility that the beast will not be a one-world government.
    The Beast will be a potentate, only answerable to Satan. The ten kings will be subordinate to him. And I believe he will draw his army from around the world, not just the Arab nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I think these passages were fulfilled in the first century. If I am right, the time references are symbolic and not literal.
    Care to expatiate?

  6. #141
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    Re: What exactly was/is/or will be the Abomination of Desolation

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Because you claim that the first place Jesus Lands is The MT. Olivite, but Those two chapters in Isaiah (among others) Suggest the Lord Decends from Heaven unto "Edom" and in Isaiah 63 it specifically says he Come from "Edom". Also i don't believe the "Tents of Judah" refer to social classes especially how a similar term is used in Zech 12:2.

    Notice the Contast.

    The siege of Jerusalem will also be against Judah.

    So we Know what Jerusalem is but who is Judah?

    Once more i guess i'm trying to figure out how post-tribbers understand the second coming (and the events that occur during this initial coming), I know Amils decribe it as "Climatatic" but to me it seems like for them time stops at this moment and nothing else in the bible matters.

    But you seem to be well versed in your position.

    I'm just trying to understand how certain passages figure into your overall view based on what you outlined from Zech 14.

    But i'm sticking to Zech 12 and Isaiah for now.

    So in Zech 12 mentions the clan Judah spefically in verse 2-7,

    Verse 12-14 then goes on to mention other Specific families.

    So idk what you mean by the term tents of Judah refers to : those in the lower social classes.

    But maybe i'm wrong
    I will speculate that "the tents of Judah" who are saved separately are Messianic Jews.

    You may probably disagree with me, JLU. But physical Edom has long been destroyed as prophesied. It doesn't exist anymore; Jesus won't destroy what he has already destroyed. So in the eschatology, I see Edom as symbolic of God's enemies just as Babylon in Revelation denotes either God's enemies or what he detests (witchcraft, idolatry etc.).

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