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Thread: National Anthem protest nonsense!

  1. #376
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Answer my question, and I will answer yours!
    I did answer it. I said yes, it brought love peace and joy to Israel. I will state some of it again. We need to always keep in mind that for God to show mercy to one, He must sometimes show judgment to another. When God set Israel free from the Egyptians, He had to judge the Egyptians. What was judgment to the Egyptians was mercy to Israel. We see this over and over and over again in the scriptures and in history.

    Here's a portion of my original quote where I answered your question and stated another:

    When Jesus led Joshua to war, did it bring love, peace and joy? For Israel it did.

    So yes, sometimes a soldier shooting at an enemy soldier brings love, joy and peace. Now, when Jesus led Joshua to war, did it bring love, joy and peace? (Also, keep in mind that Joshua wasn't just going to war at God's command. But Jesus Himself PARTICIPATED in the fighting and was the lead general.)
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  2. #377
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    It helps if we bear in mind the distinction between our jobs as soldiers and our personal lives. The same distinction can be made with police officers and fire fighters or anyone else acting in the name of the state.

    When a soldier goes to war, he or she is not acting on his or her own initiative. The actions of a soldier represent the will of the state. When the state hands Joe a gun to kill the enemy, Joe is not the one killing the enemy. The state is the one killing the enemy through Joe, who is not personally culpable for the death he causes. If the soldier is off duty, on the other hand, then Joe is acting on his own initiative and is held culpable for killing another person. The same goes for police officers. When a police officer is on duty, he is acting in the name of the law. If Harry is a police officer, Harry is not acting on his own initiative; he is acting on behalf of the law and the state. If Harry were to use deadly force while on duty, Harry is not held culpable for killing another person. (We are speaking in generalities and we know there are qualifications to what I am saying here.)

    Paul's word about the governing authorities is true in so far as the government is acting as a minister of God. Essentially we boil this down to its essence: reward the good and punish the evil. As long as the government is acting as a minister of God, rewarding the good and punishing the evil, then the soldier or the police officer is a righteous "avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." Soldiers and policemen are servants of the government, who is a minister of God. Without these men and women who serve us, there could never be justice, but only terrible revenge and mob rule.

    As a final thought, I am reminded of the words of John the Baptist when the soldiers ask him what to do.

    Luke 3:
    14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

    It is important to note what John didn't say. He didn't say, "drop your weapons, leave your post, and become a farmer."
    This is an awesome post. I will make one caveat. I don't see Government rewarding the good so much as I see the good obtaining mercy by the evil being judged. So what is judgment for evil, is good for me and mercy for me so long as I am not practicing evil.

    So government does me good, and ministers good to me, by judging evil. Note that in the passage, mercy isn't weilded, but the sword of the wrath of God is weilded. Through judgment of evil doers, the person who doesn't practice evil has the goodness of evil not being allowed to run rampant.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  3. #378
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    It helps if we bear in mind the distinction between our jobs as soldiers and our personal lives. The same distinction can be made with police officers and fire fighters or anyone else acting in the name of the state.

    When a soldier goes to war, he or she is not acting on his or her own initiative. The actions of a soldier represent the will of the state. When the state hands Joe a gun to kill the enemy, Joe is not the one killing the enemy. The state is the one killing the enemy through Joe, who is not personally culpable for the death he causes. If the soldier is off duty, on the other hand, then Joe is acting on his own initiative and is held culpable for killing another person. The same goes for police officers. When a police officer is on duty, he is acting in the name of the law. If Harry is a police officer, Harry is not acting on his own initiative; he is acting on behalf of the law and the state. If Harry were to use deadly force while on duty, Harry is not held culpable for killing another person. (We are speaking in generalities and we know there are qualifications to what I am saying here.)

    Paul's word about the governing authorities is true in so far as the government is acting as a minister of God. Essentially we boil this down to its essence: reward the good and punish the evil. As long as the government is acting as a minister of God, rewarding the good and punishing the evil, then the soldier or the police officer is a righteous "avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil." Soldiers and policemen are servants of the government, who is a minister of God. Without these men and women who serve us, there could never be justice, but only terrible revenge and mob rule.

    As a final thought, I am reminded of the words of John the Baptist when the soldiers ask him what to do.

    Luke 3:
    14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

    It is important to note what John didn't say. He didn't say, "drop your weapons, leave your post, and become a farmer."
    Good post. Civil authorities are indeed the agents through whom the Lord operates in societies, and today He has both police officers and soldiers on the front lines bearing arms to enforce law and order. In the New Testament era, the Father put His blessing on believing soldiers by filling Cornelius with His Spirit, so I don't know why some some people have a problem with Christians serving the Lord in in this capacity today. Each person should follow his or her own personal convictions in this regard, and fully respect those of others.

    When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.

  4. #379

    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Mark, I have some things to straighten out with u!
    In post 356 I asked Keck, u answered, that is fine, but u must be answering something or somebody else as I never said God changed. Here it is again.

    1]Again, I ask the question, try read it and answer it without TWISTING it!

    "Are you aware of any changes from the Old Testament O.T to the New Testament N.T ?"
    U answer; "Jesus is the God of the OT. He doesn't change. He is the same."

    Can u answer the question please?

  5. #380

    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Please note all who read in here!
    This issue about me saying God changes is a sensitive one.

    I have NEVER in my life said that God changes. If anyone says I said that, they are blatantly lying.
    PLEASE DO NOT TRY PIN THIS UNTRUTH ONTO ME.

    I guess it comes from my first days at school. A kid told the teacher I blasphemed [which I did not do at all] and I was sent out of class.

  6. #381

    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Here s my question 2 for u Mark, u never answered it.

    I said ; "Or do you think that pulling the trigger brings love, joy peace.... ?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I did answer it. When God set Israel free from the Egyptians, He had to judge the Egyptians.
    Most people, except Mark maybe doesn t know that a trigger wasn t used when Egypt was judged.

    Can u see how u are convinced u answer, but perhaps u don t read the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Here's a portion of my original quote where I answered your question and stated another:

    When Jesus led Joshua to war, did it bring love, peace and joy? For Israel it did.
    Again, u show u don t answer the question. Joshua probably didn t have a trigger.

    A little footnote on the fruit of the spirit. The fruit of the spirit is what happens inside me once I ve received Jesus.

    A better way to ask my question is; If you as a born again child of the King pull the trigger in today s age with the an enemy soldier in your sights, does it bring a sense of joy and peace in your soul?

  7. #382

    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post

    When a soldier goes to war, he or she is not acting on his or her own initiative.The actions of a soldier represent the will of the state. When the state hands Joe a gun to kill the enemy, Joe is not the one killing the enemy. The state is the one killing the enemy through Joe, who is not personally culpable for the death he causes.
    Thanks for these comments.
    Do u think that soldiers who fought on the side of Germany were not responsible for their actions?

    I am glad u use the words kill the enemy, at least u are honest enough to recognise along with me, they are in fact enemy!
    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Paul's word about the governing authorities is true in so far as the government is acting as a minister of God. Essentially we boil this down to its essence: reward the good and punish the evil. As long as the government is acting as a minister of God, rewarding the good and punishing the evil, then the soldier... is a righteous
    Are u saying that the soldiers who fought under Hitler ,"are then... righteous"?


    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Luke 3:
    14 Some soldiers were questioning him, saying, “And what about us, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not take money from anyone by force, or accuse anyone falsely, and be content with your wages.”

    It is important to note what John didn't say. He didn't say, "drop your weapons, leave your post, and become a farmer."
    A good point, realizing of course that this was before Jesus public physical ministry.

  8. #383
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Can u answer the question please?
    Could you be so kind to answer mine [link] as well?

  9. #384
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Here s my question 2 for u Mark, u never answered it.

    I said ; "Or do you think that pulling the trigger brings love, joy peace.... ?"
    I most certainly answered it! When Joshua killed all those Canaanites, it brought love, joy and peace to Israel. To show mercy to Israel God brought judgment to Canaan. It certainly brought love, joy and peace to much of the world when Hitler was defeated and the concentration camps were emptied because government righteously weilded the sword of the wrath of God. To US shame, it took far too long for her to take up that sword.

    Most people, except Mark maybe doesn t know that a trigger wasn t used when Egypt was judged.
    Metaphorically it was with Canaan (i.e. a sword). It was with Midian. It was with Amalekites. Over and over again God used the sword through government against enemies. If you prefer, I can quote chapter and verse.

    Can u see how u are convinced u answer, but perhaps u don t read the question.
    From much study of the subject!

    Again, u show u don t answer the question. Joshua probably didn t have a trigger.
    He had a sword. Guns don't change the metaphorical sword described in Romans 13. Joshua put his foot on the neck of the kings and ran them through with the sword. And he did so at Jesus blessing and orders. Jesus led the army! Joshua had those kings dragged out from a cave they were hiding in, then put his feet on their necks, then ran them through with a sword. Righteously.

    24 So it was, when they brought out those kings to Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said to the captains of the men of war who went with him, “Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings.” And they drew near and put their feet on their necks. 25 Then Joshua said to them, “Do not be afraid, nor be dismayed; be strong and of good courage, for thus the Lord will do to all your enemies against whom you fight.” 26 And afterward Joshua struck them and killed them, and hanged them on five trees; and they were hanging on the trees until evening.

    A little footnote on the fruit of the spirit. The fruit of the spirit is what happens inside me once I ve received Jesus.
    Yep.

    A better way to ask my question is; If you as a born again child of the King pull the trigger in today s age with the an enemy soldier in your sights, does it bring a sense of joy and peace in your soul?
    You think God experiences joy when He passes judgment through government?

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them: ‘As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?’

    There is no joy in judgment. But there sure is peace! And there's joy for the one who is shown mercy because of the judgment! You think those in the concentration camp experienced joy when they were set free because of the trigger being pulled against Hitler? You bet they did! Let me give a direct example of WW2. If I was called upon to make the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Japan, I would have done it. I would have wielded that sword of the wrath of God to bring destruction and judgment upon a great evil in the world as commanded by God and shown by His example throughout the word (including Revelation). I would rather that Japan and Germany and Italy had repented than die just as the Lord would. But without repentance, and a continuing sin against mercy, only judgment is left.

    David had a son that raped his daugher. His heart was comforted when that man was killed. Was there pleasure in his son's death? No. But peace was part of it.

    Let me ask a question of you Tea...

    Your wife is being raped, will you simply allow it, or do you use force to stop it?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  10. #385
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    A good point, realizing of course that this was before Jesus public physical ministry.
    In Jesus ministry, we see a centurian who wanted his servant was sick healed by Jesus. Jesus said of this soldier, that he had great faith! Only twice in the NT did Jesus ever say someone's faith was great, and once was this centurian (an officer over 100 soldiers). This man had a great understanding of authority and Jesus marveled at it.

    5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”

    7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.”

    8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

    10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!

    Jesus didn't rebuke him for being a soldier or for being under the authority of Rome. He didn't rebuke him for being over soldiers. He didn't rebuke him for being trained in the art of war. What did Jesus do? He praised the centurian for his faith that revealed how much he understood about true authority. The man knew that because he was submitted to authority, he had authority. He understood this about Jesus too.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  11. #386
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Thanks for these comments.
    Do u think that soldiers who fought on the side of Germany were not responsible for their actions?
    All soldiers are responsible for their actions to some degree depending on the circumstances. Earlier we made the distinction between acting as an agent of the state and acting alone. An occasion may arise when a soldier crosses the line, committing acts that the state did not authorize or would not approve. In those cases, the soldier is held personally responsible.

    Earlier we said that the soldier is not culpable for killing the enemy when he or she is acting under the authority of the state. This idea is predicated on the idea that the state is a minister of God: rewarding the good and punishing the evil. If the state is NOT a minister of God, willfully doing evil, engaged in extremely wicked or cruel actions involving physical violence and injury, or engaged in extremely cruel mental abuse, the soldier is culpable for the cruelty he personally inflicts. At the least, he should not participate in such evil himself.

    It would be impossible for me to make a blanket statement concerning every German soldier. Some were noble, fighting for their people, unaware of the atrocities committed by the state in extermination camps. Others willfully participated in such atrocities. Some soldiers may have defected in protest, I don't know. I have friends who know better the history of those times.

    I am glad u use the words kill the enemy, at least u are honest enough to recognise along with me, they are in fact enemy!
    Today, it is difficult to recognize the enemy. Some enemies wear uniforms; other enemies don't. Some enemies place women and children at the front of the battle; some enemies recruit children to fight. Other enemies hide in your own camp.

    Here again, though, we make the same distinction as before. On the one hand, the state has enemies and it is proper for soldiers to fight against them. On the other hand, the soldier has his own personal enemies and Jesus wants the soldier to love them.

    Are u saying that the soldiers who fought under Hitler ,"are then... righteous"?
    In my judgment, Hitler was not acting as a minister of God: rewarding the good and punishing the evil. He was selfishly ambitious, wanted power for it's own sake, concocted a rationale to justify his actions, becoming a minister of destruction, pain and death. Thus I could not argue that the soldiers who fought for him were righteous.

    A good point, realizing of course that this was before Jesus public physical ministry.
    Jesus allowed himself to be baptized by John, thus accepting and approving of his teaching. John was a prophet of God, speaking for God. And Jesus was good and wise to recognize and validate his teaching.

  12. #387
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Just an observation...When someone clearly answers a question in a way that someone else doesn't agree with, that doesn't mean that THE QUESTION WAS NOT ANSWERED.

    And what's laughable is that the one who doesn't accept the answers given is the same one who will not answer direct questions concerning scripture that directly applies to the subject at hand. CLASSIC STRAWMAN TACTICS.

  13. #388
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Please note all who read in here!
    This issue about me saying God changes is a sensitive one.

    I have NEVER in my life said that God changes. If anyone says I said that, they are blatantly lying.
    PLEASE DO NOT TRY PIN THIS UNTRUTH ONTO ME.

    I guess it comes from my first days at school. A kid told the teacher I blasphemed [which I did not do at all] and I was sent out of class.
    You are saying God changed without using that particular phrase

  14. #389
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    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Please note all who read in here!
    This issue about me saying God changes is a sensitive one.

    I have NEVER in my life said that God changes. If anyone says I said that, they are blatantly lying.
    PLEASE DO NOT TRY PIN THIS UNTRUTH ONTO ME.

    I guess it comes from my first days at school. A kid told the teacher I blasphemed [which I did not do at all] and I was sent out of class.
    You were told to stop in private. Now I tell you to stop in public.

    FINAL WARNING
    Amazzin

    Obedience to God is more than a soldier obeying his commander. It is our grateful response to the Lover of our souls.

    CHURCH: Where worship is enjoyed, not endured - Grace is preached, not legalism - And Christ is exalted, not religion!




  15. #390

    Re: National Anthem protest nonsense!

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    You are saying God changed without using that particular phrase
    Absolute nonsense!

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