View Poll Results: WHO are the they in Rev. 12:11?

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  • THE WOMAN

    0 0%
  • THE MAN CHILD

    4 33.33%
  • OUR BRETHREN

    7 58.33%
  • OTHER, (explain)

    1 8.33%
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Thread: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

  1. #1

    WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    As i was reading these verses in connection with another thread, I came to verse 11 and notice the 4 references to the words they/ their, and it seems like a new thought was introduced. But i know John has somethingin mind in who he is referring to. As i look at Rev 12, there only seems to be thee possible choices.
    A. The woman
    B. The man child
    C. Our brethren, (in verse 10).

    The context of verse 11 seems to indicate that they are Christians. Maybe there is another choice??? I would like to here some discussion on who"they" are. Be prepared to defend your overall theology(s) of Israel and the rapture.

    Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
    Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
    Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
    Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
    Rev 12:11 And THEY overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of THEIR testimony; and THEY loved not THEIR lives unto the death.

  2. #2
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    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    I voted for the Brethren.

  3. #3

    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I voted for the Brethren.
    Does the reference to "the kingdom... of his Christ", i.e. the kingdom to Israel, mean that they are Israelites? (When John says our brethren? ).
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

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    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Does the reference to "the kingdom... of his Christ", i.e. the kingdom to Israel, mean that they are Israelites? (When John says our brethren? ).
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    No the passage clearly says the Kingdom oF God has come, the same kingdom that was taken from the Jews and given to the Church (Nation) bearing its Fruit. Matthew 21:43

    We Receive the Kingdom of God, which flesh and blood cannot inherit.

    John 3:5

    1 Corinthians 15:50

  5. #5

    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    No the passage clearly says the Kingdom oF God has come, the same kingdom that was taken from the Jews and given to the Church (Nation) bearing its Fruit. Matthew 21:43

    We Receive the Kingdom of God, which flesh and blood cannot inherit.

    John 3:5

    1 Corinthians 15:50
    Doesn't verse 11, when it says that they loved not their lives unto death" and that they overcome by the blood of the Lamb, mean that they are still on the earth? If not, that means, they are in heaven and their overcoming of Satan, took place BEFORE he was cast out?
    Blessings
    GB

  6. #6
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    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Doesn't verse 11, when it says that they loved not their lives unto death" and that they overcome by the blood of the Lamb, mean that they are still on the earth? If not, that means, they are in heaven and their overcoming of Satan, took place BEFORE he was cast out?
    Blessings
    GB
    Not "before" at the same time, the best passage i can use would once more be Hebrews 2:5-18 or Hebrews 12:22-28.

    Satan and his host lose there position in the Heavens and the Church takes their place.

    As Paul says in 1 Cor 6:2-3 we will judge the world and Angels.

    But i also believe this is addressed in the passage we are veiwing.

    See verse 8

    Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Where did their "Place" Go??

  7. #7

    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Not "before" at the same time, the best passage i can use would once more be Hebrews 2:5-18 or Hebrews 12:22-28.

    Satan and his host lose there position in the Heavens and the Church takes their place.

    As Paul says in 1 Cor 6:2-3 we will judge the world and Angels.

    But i also believe this is addressed in the passage we are veiwing.

    See verse 8

    Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Where did their "Place" Go??
    Correct me if i have any of what you are saying being wrong (i am not trying to be critical, just trying to understand your beliefs.)
    1. Rapture takes place.
    2. Church goes to heaven 3.5 years (or more) before Satan is cast out.
    3. Satan cast out.
    4. The church takes "his place".

    That would mean that the church is in heaven BEFORE Satan is cast out.
    Blessings
    GB

  8. #8
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    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Correct me if i have any of what you are saying being wrong (i am not trying to be critical, just trying to understand your beliefs.)
    1. Rapture takes place.
    2. Church goes to heaven 3.5 years (or more) before Satan is cast out.
    3. Satan cast out.
    4. The church takes "his place".

    That would mean that the church is in heaven BEFORE Satan is cast out.
    Blessings
    GB
    Your representation of my timing is a bit off. I don't believe the War last 3.5 years

    1.Rapture takes place (Let's say in this example of Rev 12 that its the Man-Child ).Rev 12:5

    2. The Church Goes Up and at the same time(or immediately after) there is a war in Heaven & Satan and his Angels get Cast Out and the Church takes their place. Rev 12:6-9.

    3. Once Satan is Cast out then The KoG and the Power of Christ(all things Subject to the Son like Hebrews 2:8) etc is Declared. Rev 12:10-12.

    Idk how long the War lasts- But however long the War is (not specified) is the Amount of time between The Church(man-child) going up and Satan landing on Earth(Rev 12:13)

    But according to Paul the same power the Christ uses to Subject all things to himself will Change our Bodies. Philippians 3:20-21

  9. #9

    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Your representation of my timing is a bit off. I don't believe the War last 3.5 years

    1.Rapture takes place (Let's say in this example of Rev 12 that its the Man-Child ).Rev 12:5

    2. The Church Goes Up and at the same time(or immediately after) there is a war in Heaven & Satan and his Angels get Cast Out and the Church takes their place. Rev 12:6-9.

    3. Once Satan is Cast out then The KoG and the Power of Christ(all things Subject to the Son like Hebrews 2:8) etc is Declared. Rev 12:10-12.

    Idk how long the War lasts- But however long the War is (not specified) is the Amount of time between The Church(man-child) going up and Satan landing on Earth(Rev 12:13)

    But according to Paul the same power the Christ uses to Subject all things to himself will Change our Bodies. Philippians 3:20-21
    Again, not being critical, just trying to show how you see everything is put together. If, and you did state that it might be less than 3.5 years, would that not mean that the church is raptured less than 7 years before the 2nd advent?
    Blessings,
    GB

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Your representation of my timing is a bit off. I don't believe the War last 3.5 years

    1.Rapture takes place (Let's say in this example of Rev 12 that its the Man-Child ).Rev 12:5

    2. The Church Goes Up and at the same time(or immediately after) there is a war in Heaven & Satan and his Angels get Cast Out and the Church takes their place. Rev 12:6-9.

    3. Once Satan is Cast out then The KoG and the Power of Christ(all things Subject to the Son like Hebrews 2:8) etc is Declared. Rev 12:10-12.

    Idk how long the War lasts- But however long the War is (not specified) is the Amount of time between The Church(man-child) going up and Satan landing on Earth(Rev 12:13)

    But according to Paul the same power the Christ uses to Subject all things to himself will Change our Bodies. Philippians 3:20-21
    Again, not being critical, just trying to show how you see everything is put together. If, and you did state that it might be less than 3.5 years, would that not mean that the church is raptured less than 7 years before the 2nd advent?
    Blessings,
    GB

  10. #10
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    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Again, not being critical, just trying to show how you see everything is put together. If, and you did state that it might be less than 3.5 years, would that not mean that the church is raptured less than 7 years before the 2nd advent?
    Blessings,
    GB
    Yea I'm not really dogmatic about the 7-year trib viewpoint I mean it definitely possible and one could get that Length of time from Just Rev 12 alone.

    If you believe Vs 6 and vs 14 speak about different lengths of time(as i do).

    But does verse's 6 3.5 years coincide with the War or Satan being cast out?

    I'm not sure, personally, I believe the 7 trumpets are the judgment of the host of Heaven with Satan (the 5th trumpet) being the last Angel to fall.

  11. #11

    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Your representation of my timing is a bit off. I don't believe the War last 3.5 years

    1.Rapture takes place (Let's say in this example of Rev 12 that its the Man-Child ).Rev 12:5

    2. The Church Goes Up and at the same time(or immediately after) there is a war in Heaven & Satan and his Angels get Cast Out and the Church takes their place. Rev 12:6-9.

    3. Once Satan is Cast out then The KoG and the Power of Christ(all things Subject to the Son like Hebrews 2:8) etc is Declared. Rev 12:10-12.

    Idk how long the War lasts- But however long the War is (not specified) is the Amount of time between The Church(man-child) going up and Satan landing on Earth(Rev 12:13)

    But according to Paul the same power the Christ uses to Subject all things to himself will Change our Bodies. Philippians 3:20-21
    Again, not being critical, just trying to show how you see everything is put together. If, and you did state that it might be less than 3.5 years, would that not mean that the church is raptured less than 7 years before the 2nd advent?
    Blessings,
    GB

  12. #12
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    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    I voted "The Man Child". The context is heaven. The Man Child displaces Satan for "no place was found for him" (v.8). Since Adam believed God and called his wife "Eve", Satan has been accusing men before the throne "day and night"(v.10). Then suddenly the Man-Child is raptured to heaven. His presence is the only change in heaven. So it follows that the cause of Satan's displacement from heaven was the Man-Child. The cause, the Man-Child, is put into effect my Michael - an angel-warrior (Dan.10:13, 21, 12:1). Thus, just as our Lord overcame in His temptation, so also the Man-Child overcame and is Raptured as a reward (Lk.21:36; Rev.2:26-27, 3:10)

    It could not be the "brethren" because there is
    • no evidence that they overcame. Out of the seven Churches in Revelation, only ONE is commended. The bulk of the "brethren" are defeated Christians
    • we all know Christians who are rather overcome themselves than overcomers (maybe even yourself)
    • Revelation 13:7 says that "saints" on earth are overcome by the Beast, who is a man and thus lower than the angels (Ps.8:5; Heb.2:7-9)
    • Revelation 12 goes on to say that the remainder of the Woman's seed would stay on earth for the duration of the Tribulation. Thus, the "brethren" (or brothers) who have no effect on the events of heaven

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    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Does the reference to "the kingdom... of his Christ", i.e. the kingdom to Israel, mean that they are Israelites? (When John says our brethren? ).
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    Verse 10 was said in response to verse 9, where the passage reveals that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven down to the earth. It was at that moment when the kingdom of God began in earnest. Think of the phrase "kingdom of God" as that particular time and place where evil and disobedience is no longer tolerated or even allowed to exist. When it says, "Now is come . . ." it means "the pervading spiritual condition that we all desired and anticipated has just begun to manifest itself." Removing Satan from heaven is the first step in a long process of the restoration of creation. We pray that God would make his kingdom come and he begins to actualize that reality beginning in heaven first, then followed by the earth.

  14. #14

    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    To understand who "they" are, one needs to look at the source scripture, Isa 66.

    Isa 66:7 KJV Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

    The key to understanding Isa 66 is the phrase, "shall a NATION bee born in a DAY? " That answer is found in these words:
    *[[Isa 66:9]] KJV* Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
    The male child AND her other children, represents the (re-) birth of the nation of Israel. The woman's children represents the people of Israel.
    *[[Isa 66:7]] KJV* Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
    *[[Isa 66:8]] KJV* Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
    Here we see that the woman gives birth to the male child BEFORE she travailed. Later in this passage we see that the woman represents Zion, for it says, "as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her CHILDREN [those born AFTER the male child]. It will be the travail of Zion that will bring forth the fullness of the rest of her children. So, if the woman's children represents the people of Israel, what does her first born male child represent. For starters, the first born male child, belongs to the Lord. As a synopsis of the 144,000, we find that:
    1. They are of the tribes of Israel,
    2. They are the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb, and
    3. They love righteous Jerusalem- see the rest of Isa 66 and Eze. 9[they sigh & cry over the abominations done there].

    So, the identity of the male child points toward the 144,000. But this seems to present a contradiction. Rev. 12:5 days that her child was caught up to heaven, whereas verse 11 says,

    *[[Rev 12:11]] KJV* And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    These "they" dwell on earth, willing to give up their lives. How is this reconciled? By looking at the apostle Paul.

    *[[2Co 12:2]] KJV* I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    *[[2Co 12:3]] KJV* And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
    [[2Co 12:4]] KJV* How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
    In both cases, the male child & Paul, the word used for caught up is the same. And we know that Paul didn't stay in heaven. Everyone knows about Paul's complete dedication to give his life in service to the Lord. Now look at Rev 12:11 again,

    *[[Rev 12:11]] KJV* And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    They had that same willingness of service; willingness to give their lives. Now look again at rev. 14,

    They had their Fathers name in their foreheads, the same exhortation given to the church at Philadelphia that OVERCOMES.

    *[[Rev 14:1]] KJV* And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    AND then we see in verse 3 that they are redeemed from among men, given an eternal body,

    *[[Rev 14:3]] KJV* And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    I am convinced that the male child represents the 144,000 evangelists, equal in resolve as the apostle Paul.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  15. #15
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    Re: WHO are the "they/their" in Rev. 12:11?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I am convinced that the male child represents the 144,000 evangelists, equal in resolve as the apostle Paul.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB


    However not sure they evangelize... can you support this?

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