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Thread: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

  1. #106
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Do this passages work?

    Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

    2 Thes 1:7 and to you being oppressed, repose with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with His mighty angels,


    Philippians 3:21
    But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

    Romans 8:16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    1 Peter 1:13
    Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober-minded. Set your hope fully on the grace to be given you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Once more notice Philippians 3:21 which says by the same Power that all things are subject onto himself will we be transformed.
    As you read these scriptures with the mindset of a rapture or at least a body transformation at the Return of Jesus, then all who have already made that conclusion, will see them as confirmation of their beliefs.
    But in actual fact none of them are cast iron clear that the transformation does happen at the Return of Jesus. Revelation 20:4 plainly states that only the martyrs who are killed by the Anti-Christ, will be brought back to life. Not made immortal yet; until the GWT Judgement at the end of the Millennium.

    The transformation described in Philippians 3:21, does not say when this will happen, but scripture does explain itself and Revelation 21:1-7 says when.

    The great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath:

    2 Esdras 15&16 These are the words of the Lord: I shall show sinners no pity, My punishment will not spare those murderers who stain the ground with innocent blood. The Lord’s anger will burst out in flame, scorching the earth to its foundations and consuming sinners like burning straw. Woe to sinners who flout My commands, I shall show them no mercy. I well know all who offend against Me, I consign them to death and destruction.
    See the clouds – full of fury and tempest, their appearance is hideous. They will let loose a vast storm over the land. There will be terror and trembling throughout the world, people will shudder, stricken with panic. Huge clouds will pile up and ravage the whole land and its inhabitants and a terrible storm will sweep over all that is high and exalted, with fire and hail and flying swords.
    Strong is the arm that bends the bow and sharp the arrows that He shoots. Once they are on their way, nothing will stop them until they reach the ends of the earth. Calamities are let loose and will not turn back. The fire is lighted and will not be put out. When the scorching heat bears down upon you, your strength and splendour will wither like a flower. When Y’hovah sends calamities, who can avert them? When His anger bursts into flame, who can extinguish it? When the lightning flashes and it thunders, who will not quake with dread?

    The Wisdom Of Solomon 5:17-23 The Lord will array Himself from head to foot with the clothing of His wrath and will make His creation the weapon against His enemies. He will take holiness for His invincible shield and sharpen His relentless anger for a sword. The bolts of His lightning will fly straight to their mark and the artillery of His resentment will let fly a fury of hail. A great tempest will rise against them and scatter them like chaff before a whirlwind. So lawlessness will make the whole world desolate.
    But the just will live forever, their reward is in the Lord’s keeping. Therefore royal splendour will be theirs and a crown from the Lord Himself. He will protect His people with His Right Hand and shield them with His arm.

    The Wisdom of Solomon 16:15-16 From the Lord’s Hand there is no escape, the godless who refused to acknowledge You are scourged by Your mighty arm and pursued by storms of hail in relentless torrents and are utterly destroyed by fire. Ref: Revised English Bible Apocrypha

    The Otot haMashiah [the sign of the Messiah, written circa 12th century]
    The Holy One, blessed be He, will bring to the world heat from the sun, that will kill a thousand times thousands of all the nations and all the wicked of Israel will also die. Everyone will say: Woe is us, where can we escape to? They will dig holes and hide in caves to cool themselves. If you ask: How will the righteous be saved from the heat of the sun? The Holy One, blessed be He, will give them a remedy in that heat.

    The Qibbutz Galuyot [the ingathering of the Exiles]
    Ever since the destruction of the Temple, in 70AD, the Jews have prayed daily for the rejoining and the restoration of all the Israelites. To make this complete, there has to be a redemption of the Lord’s people to Himself. Therefore, all the Israelites must return to their ancestral Land and also the Shekinah Glory must return with them.
    Happy are those who live in those days, to see the good fortune of Israel which God will bring to pass. For the ingathering of Israel, may God hasten His mercy to His people.

    The Lord’s People, true Israelites: are now every faithful Christian. Galatians 3:26-29, 1 Peter 2:9-10

  2. #107
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    As you read these scriptures with the mindset of a rapture or at least a body transformation at the Return of Jesus, then all who have already made that conclusion, will see them as confirmation of their beliefs.
    That's my Hope also. To provide biblical support (as opposed to your personal interpretations on this subject) for this position.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    But in actual fact none of them are cast iron clear that the transformation does happen at the Return of Jesus.
    Sorry all of these passages put the tranformation at the "Revelation of Christ". If you believe the Revelation of Christ is the GWTJ that is your own personal belief but none of your opinions on Rev 20-21 change the clear words of Paul, Peter, John and Jesus our Lord Himslf.

    Thanks for your views however.

    Once more Notice the "Timing" speficifed by Peter, Paul and Jesus.

    Peter

    1 Peter 1:13
    Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober-minded. Set your hope fully on the grace to be given you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    "When" is at the Revelation of Christ this is IRONCLAD Clear.

    1st John 3:2
    Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

    When he Appears We will be Like HIm

    Once more the Word "WHEN" gives the timing IRONCLAD.

    Same with Pauls words in Romans 8:16-19, Philippians 3:21, 2 Thes 1:7, Colossians 3:4

    And our Lord Jesus himself.

    John 6:40

    For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    Luke 20:35-36 But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

    You know i rather not argue about this topic (since neither of our views seems to be changing).

    All I'm doing is quoting the scriptures you, of course, can believe as you wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Revelation 20:4 plainly states that only the martyrs who are killed by the Anti-Christ, will be brought back to life. Not made immortal yet; until the GWT Judgement at the end of the Millennium.
    Rev 20:4 clearly states they Lived for 1000 years and Cant be hurt by the second death.

    Please explain to me how you understand this passage to mean that any of those ressurected can Die again before the 1000 years expire.

    How i understand this passage here is.

    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    This passage couldn't be more "explicit" They Live for 1K years.

    Please show in this passage where they idea is conveyed that these people can die again before the 1k years expire?

  3. #108

    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Hi ForHisglory,
    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agreed with you that AC has dominion over the earth for a period of time.
    What I have not suggested is that God gave Jesus dominion over the earth sometime in the past and then takes it away.
    I have stated quite plainly the order shown in Revelation.
    Now He IS the Lord and ALWAYS is, which means the TRUE dominion is His Yesterday, Today and Tomorrow.
    The order is:
    1. AC dominion on earth
    2. Jesus given dominion whilst in heaven
    3. Jesus comes to take His dominion from the AC.
    So you believe that the AC and Christ are given and hold dominion of the Earth simultaneously for a time then? Like if I sold a piece of land to two different people and gave them two separate deeds?


    Actually there is a leap in logic. What is clear is that He is given the dominion - He is crowned King. As Jesus said in His parable in Luke 19:11 - 27 He goes away, whilst away He is crowned, He goes back to claim that which He was given.
    Yes I agree that Luke 19:12 would seemingly support the sequence you are advancing. I have also noticed that before. I am hesitant to base doctrine on an
    uninterpreted parable of Christ spoken to unbelievers though, that can be tricky. I would just play it safe and invest whatever talent the Lord has given you to try to increase his inheritance. Which of us is right or wrong about the sequence we are discussing is really inconsequential in comparison.

    You are correct to state that Rev 7:9 is post-tribulation. It is indeed those who have been raptured.
    However it is NOT a scene in Heaven, but a scene on earth.
    It is the same scene as that found in Luke 19:28 - 38. IOW the gospel shows us how things will be.
    This is us welcoming Him to Jerusalem where He reigns on earth.
    The multitude are in Heaven. They stand before the throne of God. It is plain in the text.
    Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    This throne of God is in Heaven.
    Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

    We do, through Him.
    This means He receives His dominion and takes possession of it and so we then take possession. Notice it speaks not only of being given dominion, but then also of taking possession of what is given.
    This gives the order of events:
    1. Given the dominion
    2. Taking possession of the dominion

    In your order you have Jesus TAKE the dominion, then go to the Father to have what He has taken ratified, and then coming again to TAKE it. That is a bizarre order and contrary to the character of God.
    Yes we agree on the order here. It would seem that when Christ defeats the AC ownership defaults back to the Father.

    .
    Therefore you are agreeing that God gives the dominion to Jesus BEFORE Jesus takes ownership.
    Yes I agree with this.


    Actually it does speak of the change in dominion of the earth, for this language is the same as that in Rev 11 except there is shown a delay between Jesus going to the Father and being given dominion and Him coming to earth to take what is His.
    Sounds like to me that they are happy that Heaven is finally rid of Satan, but sad that now Earth will suffer under his reign.


    Wrong it is 100% about dominion over the earth because this shows Christ coming AS King of kings to defeat the AC.
    IOW He is crowned BEFORE He has defeated the AC, just as David was anointed BEFORE He became King.
    The Lord has always had this title King of Kings, Lord of Lords (Deut 10:12) it isn't relevant to this discussion. It doesn't speak as to who has dominion of the Earth. If a great king decides to give you a parcel of land, you then own that land. God decides to give the AC the Earth and it remains his until he is destroyed.

    I don't dispute the fact that Jesus is now, and has always been Lord over all. However, he decides to give the AC ownership of the Earth for a time. In order to give something to somebody you have to give it up. He doesn't own it during the time the AC owns it.

  4. #109

    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Hi Jesuslovesus,
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Do this passages work?

    Colossians 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

    2 Thes 1:7 and to you being oppressed, repose with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with His mighty angels,


    Philippians 3:21
    But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

    Romans 8:16The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    1 Peter 1:13
    Therefore prepare your minds for action. Be sober-minded. Set your hope fully on the grace to be given you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    Once more notice Philippians 3:21 which says by the same Power that all things are subject onto himself will we be transformed.
    Yes they work. Thank you very much

  5. #110
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    There is no conflict. The Israelites remain scattered around the world, only Judah has returned and they are in apostasy and face Judgement, too.
    This is no reasonable answer. You say the day of the Lord is future only, but Ezekiel said, the day of the Lord started in the past already (because its time of the nations also). This is your conflict, regardless whether the Israelites remain scattered or not.

  6. #111
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Hi Trivalee,

    I'll try to explain more thoroughly. It is really an extremely simple 2 step process requiring only basic reading comprehension and the simplest of logic. Just leave your doctrines out of it a deal with the text only.

    First we must agree that Jesus returns physically to defeat the Antichrist at Armageddon. I see you don't believe this and cite a scripture about 'every eye seeing him' as to why this isn't the case. This is not a convincing argument. Jesus describes his second coming 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be There hasn't been a reason given by you to make me believe that this stunning visual
    isn't seen by all as he departs heaven on his way downward to the battle at Armageddon. Why is this not a possibility? You know what, don't explain it to me. Paul makes it 100% clear that Christ physically returns to defeat the AC. "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" Paul not only says the Jesus returns to destroy the AC, he says method in which the AC is destroyed is BY HIS COMING. There is no way to separate the physical return of Christ with the destruction of the AC that I can see. If you still disagree, I would hope you could at least see the merit of believing this and indulge me.

    I really don't care if you wrongly believe that Daniel 7 is in a jumbled up order or the throne room scene happens after the millennial reign. You're wrong on both counts but it doesn't matter at all. The only thing we need to be concerned with here is WHEN and WHERE Dan 7:13-14 happens. Nothing else right now.
    Why do you take pleasure in twisting what I said? I challenge you to show where I "disagreed that Jesus will destroy the Antichrist at Armageddon"?

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Firstly, concerning the dominion over the earth. Can we agree that the AC has this dominion over the earth during his reign (Rev 13:7 power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.), and Christ receives the dominion over the earth after beasts destruction in Dan 7:14? Not after the millennial reign but before? Because that would be nonsense for Christ to reign over an Earth he doesn't own for 1000 years. So Christ receives dominion over the earth sometime between the defeat of the beast and the beginning of the millennial kingdom. Yes? Will you agree with this? Simple order, AC given dominion of the Earth, Christ defeats the AC and receives dominion of the Earth, millennial kingdom.

    If you are in agreement so far, WHERE Christ and the saints receive this dominion over the Earth, stated in Dan 7:13, is the final point of Interest.

    Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Christ RETURNS to heaven to receive dominion of the earth. He goes near before God, on his throne, in Heaven and receives his reward directly from God. The place he is given dominion of the Earth is near before the throne of God. He can't begin his millennial reign until he receives ownership of the Earth correct? Therefore he must return to Heaven after he defeats the AC to receive dominion, then return to earth to start his 1000 yr reign. This is a place in scripture that shows returning twice.

    1. Christ comes to Earth personally to defeat the AC *100% proven by 2 Thess 2:8
    2. Christ returns to Heaven to receive dominion over the Earth from God *100% proven by Dan 7:13-14
    3 Christ returns to Earth to begin his reign as King in Israel for 1000 years *a belief we share
    1. Jesus receives dominion over the earth after the destruction of the Beast and commences to rule in the MK.
    2. But he will NOT return to heaven for it as you erroneously claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    No you are jumbling up everything again, I hope I was able to explain above the simple order of events I'm promoting in an understandable way. Christ doesn't set up the millennial kingdom and then return to heaven.

    If you don't agree with the Hosea timeline, that's fine. I gave you two other witnesses to the same timeline. It's pretty hard to believe you aren't able to see the similarities between the leopard, lion, bear and king destroyed by God's wrath in Hosea 13 and the leopard, lion, and bear and beast destroyed by God's wrath Daniel 7 though imo, too much to be coincidence.

    Dan 11 guy not the antichrist huh?

    Dan 11:36 “Then the king shall do according to his own will: he shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done.

    Go on....do tell
    Given your inability to understand the simplest of scripture, how can you begin to comprehend Dan 11? You won't understand so I won't bother. I have provided a link below to an educated debate on Dan 11, you may avail yourself of my views therein.

    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...the-KJV/page31

  7. #112
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    I hope I convinced you of your error here in the previous post. Christ's return is the cause of death of the AC at Armageddon according to Paul in 2 Thess 2. You are 100% wrong on this
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    And you believe this battle occurs a year after Armageddon? As I pointed out yesterday, this battle occurs BEFORE Jesus returns, not after - there's a difference. And he returns just once when ALL eyes see him (Rev 1:7). And He has no need to return to heaven.
    Please tell me how your answer "that Christ' return is the cause of death of the AC" corresponds in any shape or form to what I said? And for your benefit and other readers, I have recapped above!

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    The antichrist gathers his armies in Israel for the purpose of fighting Jesus, not destroying Israel, as I already pointed out earlier.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The AC will fight them because they will refuse to take his mark. The fact they refuse to accept Jesus does not necessarily mean they will side with the AC. By rejecting Christ, they still erroneously believe that their promised Messiah is coming, hence the AC will attack them.
    I am once again compelled to recap what I said in my previous post to highlight your inexplicable penchant for ignoring what I said and coming up with unrelated answers. I don't see anything in my post that suggests the AC is going to destroy Israel as a nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    So show me your proof that the Harlot is 3 different entities destroyed at 3 different times during the last days. I've showed you plainly that the harlot is defeated at the same vial as the antichrist at Armageddon. It is enough. Because the kings of the earth and the nations survive onward to mourn her death afterwards. Disproving your assertion that all Christ's enemies are destroyed at Armageddon'. It doesn't matter if their are 5000 harlots and they are figurative for every thing you can imagine. The point is that the harlot is destroyed the same day as Armageddon......evil kings and nations survive that day to mourn her, Christ's enemies still survive beyond Armageddon.
    I have no joy in repeating myself, so I'll direct you to my post #92

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    I don't think the people in the final Gog war, or any of the 3 Gog wars, are spirits, I'm not claiming that. I was claiming that the people at the 5th trumpet are possessed by spirits and participate in what I believe to be the Eze 38 uprising. I was claiming that Gog is not a person or entity, but merely represents destruction. How can one person or entity be destroyed over all the mountains of Israel? I was claiming that Abaddon also is just a representative of destruction, and not a real entity.....locusts have no king over them. I also claimed that Gog is Abaddon, and they are both not real, just a destructive hive mindset of the people who participate in the 3 wars with no leader over them. You know, similar to how a riot breaks out? People aren't really following a single individual, a fervor just escalates into a destructive rampage, usually over a shared outrage among the rioters. It's the same way I see the post millennial Gog war play out. I don't see Satan leading legions of armies in an organized way against Jerusalem. Just using deceit to agitate the people of that time into such a frenzy that they blindly charge Jerusalem in unison only to run into a wall of fire...the end.
    You are simply contradicting yourself. There is nothing in the scripture that suggests that Satan sat back and did not lead the charge against the camp of the saints as you claim.

  8. #113
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Hi ForHisglory,
    So you believe that the AC and Christ are given and hold dominion of the Earth simultaneously for a time then? Like if I sold a piece of land to two different people and gave them two separate deeds?
    Not quite. The AC is a squatter. Think about the nature of the beast.
    This dominion has been given a long time ago as stated in Daniel 2. Dominion over Man.
    However when Satan is cast down, it is by Satan's authority that the AC rules.

    Jesus though is given the deeds to the land. He comes to enforce His rule, which presently, and especially at that time, is not.

    Yes I agree that Luke 19:12 would seemingly support the sequence you are advancing. I have also noticed that before. I am hesitant to base doctrine on an uninterpreted parable of Christ spoken to unbelievers though, that can be tricky. I would just play it safe and invest whatever talent the Lord has given you to try to increase his inheritance. Which of us is right or wrong about the sequence we are discussing is really inconsequential in comparison.
    If I were to rely solely on the parable, then it could be disastrous. However I see it as a supporting point.

    The multitude are in Heaven. They stand before the throne of God. It is plain in the text.
    Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
    This throne of God is in Heaven.
    Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
    I get your thinking, however though the throne of God is presently in Heaven, the question is whether it remains in Heaven AFTER Jesus defeats the AC and the Tribulation is over. I think we agree this is a vision of post-Tribulation.
    For me the answer is given in Rev 21 & 22 when the throne of God is in the New Jerusalem. Further this action which is going on is one that John saw before.
    It matches when Jesus rode into Jerusalem and was acclaimed King.

    Yes we agree on the order here. It would seem that when Christ defeats the AC ownership defaults back to the Father.
    It would default to the Father except the Father has ALREADY given it to the Son. IOW the Son comes to take what has been given to Him.

    Yes I agree with this.
    Agreement is good.

    Sounds like to me that they are happy that Heaven is finally rid of Satan, but sad that now Earth will suffer under his reign.
    They are sad, but it is worse than that - for it is the THIRD WOE.

    The Lord has always had this title King of Kings, Lord of Lords (Deut 10:12) it isn't relevant to this discussion. It doesn't speak as to who has dominion of the Earth. If a great king decides to give you a parcel of land, you then own that land. God decides to give the AC the Earth and it remains his until he is destroyed.
    Don't confuse Lord with Jesus. Jesus as God is King of Kings, but Jesus is crowned and declared King at the 7th trumpet.

    I don't dispute the fact that Jesus is now, and has always been Lord over all. However, he decides to give the AC ownership of the Earth for a time. In order to give something to somebody you have to give it up. He doesn't own it during the time the AC owns it.
    As God, He remains Lord, even when the AC reigns. He doesn't stop being Lord whilst the AC reigns. However He is not presently ruling as King. We will know the difference when He returns and does that.

  9. #114
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post

    This passage couldn't be more "explicit" They Live for 1K years.

    Please show in this passage where they idea is conveyed that these people can die again before the 1k years expire?
    [/B]
    I didn't say they couldn't live for the 1000 years. But they do not have immortality yet, so they can still die naturally or by accident. ONLY at the GWT Judgement is Eternal Life given to those whose names are in the Book of Life. Isaiah 65:20 plainly says people will die during the Millennium.

    The belief of immortality given at the Return of Jesus, is wrong and none of the scriptures you use to support it say that. Faithful Christians receive 'grace', they shall see Him like His is and be like Him; in spirit, but your quotes from John 6:40 and Luke 20:35-36 both apply to Eternity. Proved by verse 37, paralleled by Revelation 21:1-7, where there is no more death and all the worthy people will live with God for Eternity.

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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I didn't say they couldn't live for the 1000 years. But they do not have immortality yet, so they can still die naturally or by accident. ONLY at the GWT Judgement is Eternal Life given to those whose names are in the Book of Life.
    According to Jesus in Luke, those who participate in the resurrection cannot die again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Isaiah 65:20 plainly says people will die during the Millennium.
    Agreed, but where in Isaiah does it say those Resurrected during the Millenium will die again?

    It doesn't brother...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The belief of immortality given at the Return of Jesus, is wrong and none of the scriptures you use to support it say that. Faithful Christians receive 'grace', they shall see Him like he is and be like Him; in spirit,
    I believe this occurs at the "Revelation of Christ" and the scriptures I put forth do support this you just claim my "timing" is off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Proved by verse 37, paralleled by Revelation 21:1-7, where there is no more death and all the worthy people will live with God for Eternity.
    Actually, your timing is proven false by the question they asked about the "Ressurection", not about Eternity. Luke 20:33 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife of them is she?

    Once more according to the Words of Jesus himself you are wrong. SO once more I will just quote Jesus.

    If you can provide any evidence from Rev 20 that shows they can die again by quote Keraz: "They can still die naturally or by accident."
    Please bring it forth. (What you personally think outside of the text has no weight here, if you believe the passage says the can die again highlight that section for me please.)

    TO me The passage explicitly says they will live for 1K years no early death by "natural or Accident".

    Luke 20:35-36 But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. 36 In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

    Because according to Jesus it is a FACT that: "They Can NO LONGER DIE".
    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    but your quotes from John 6:40 and Luke 20:35-36 both apply to Eternity.
    No the Words of Jesus in Luke APPLY to the "AGE TO COME" or in "Ressurection". As Jesus Himself says! Also mirrored in Hebrews 2:8-18, Romans 8:16-20, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28. Also, i've seen nothing expressed in John 6:40 that suggest Jesus will raise them up on the last day of the Millenium.

  11. #116
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    People who like to believe that immortality is conferred before the GWT Judgment and before the Book of Life is opened, may continue in that false belief.
    It is, of course: an tenet of the false 'rapture to heaven' theory, that millions have been taught and are now locked into. Sad, really as when it doesn't happen, they may renounce God. He does have wonderful Plans for all who trust Him, all who keep strong in their faith during the testing times ahead.

    But for now, this thread is about the forthcoming Day of the Lord's wrath, that will reset our civilization and prepare the world for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

    The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations:Psalms 110:5-6, Habakkuk 3:12, Romans 1:18, Hebrews 10:27

    Obadiah 1:15-21 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations, they will be treated as they have treated others and their wrong actions will recoil upon themselves. My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath, then all the nations in turn will drink of it and be devastated by it. But in Jerusalem there will be a holy remnant, the Lord’s people will be like a flame while the House of Esau will be burnt up with no survivors. My [Christian] people will possess all of the holy Land that was given to Abraham and those in Jerusalem who lead My people will control the lands of the Edomites, but the Kingdom belongs to the Lord.
    Isaiah 28:21-22 The Lord will arise as He did at Mt Perazim and in the valley of Gibeon, and storm with rage to do what He must do, to perform His task – a strange and alien deed. But now, have done with all arrogance and pride or the Lord will increase His punishment, for destruction is decreed over the whole Land. Jeremiah 10:18
    Isaiah 26:10-11 Lord: Your hand is lifted high and Your enemies can’t see Your good will toward Your people. [Let them see and be ashamed.] Let the fire reserved for Your enemies consume them. The wicked are destroyed, they have never learnt justice, they are corrupt and blinded to Your Majesty and power.
    Micah 4:11-12 Now, many nations are massed against Israel, they say: Let Zion suffer outrage, we will gloat over their demise. They are unaware of the Lord’s plans, for His purpose is to gather them like sheaves to the threshing floor.
    Nahum 1:5 The earth quakes before the Lord, the world and all who live in it are in tumult. Who can stand before His wrath? Who can resist the fury of His anger, poured out as fire?

    The Lord will arise and storm with rage, as He did in ancient times’. Jeremiah 30:23-24
    His task, strange and alien’. We know God as a God of love, but also of justice and it is just to punish those who do not obey Him and who attack His Land. Isaiah 34:5
    destruction is decreed’. The entire Middle East will be burnt and devastated. Ezekiel 30:3-5, Isaiah 17:1, Amos 1:3-15
    fire reserved for the Lord’s enemies will consume them, His anger poured out as fire’. A massive sunstrike CME will fulfill all these prophesied effects. Deuteronomy 32:22 & 34-35, Isaiah 66:15-16, Malachi 4:1
    My people will drink the wine of God’s wrath’. This will be the third ‘swing of the sword’ Ezekiel 21:14, the final judgement of the Jewish people. Jeremiah 2:9, Eze.24:14
    now, many nations are massed against Israel’. This perfectly describes the situation today and they want to ‘gloat over her demise’. Psalm 83:1-18
    The House of Esau, burnt up – no survivors’. Those attacking Israel will be totally wiped out. Zephaniah 3:8, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 12:14, +
    those who lead My people’. Another proof that this all happens before the Return of Jesus. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11

  12. #117
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    People who like to believe that immortality is conferred before the GWT Judgment and before the Book of Life is opened, may continue in that belief.
    Thanks brother I will continue to believe the words of Jesus over your personal opinions(but that's just me)

    Also anytime a brother asks for verses to something (like crush did) I will provide them.

    Unless you plan to say Jesus is wrong when he says those who attain the resurrection of the dead cannot die again?

    Since you won't deny his words but instead try to teach contrary to his truth I don't believe there is anything else to say

    Once more for all those who wonder if those who are resurrected can die again, I will just direct them to Luke 20:35-36 where do you direct them to find your doctrine??

    Quote Jesus: But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

    Quote Keraz: I didn't say they couldn't live for the 1000 years. But they do not have immortality yet, so they can still die naturally or by accident.

    I leave it to the Reader to decide who to believe.

    God bless.

  13. #118

    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Hi ForHisglory,
    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Not quite. The AC is a squatter. Think about the nature of the beast.
    This dominion has been given a long time ago as stated in Daniel 2. Dominion over Man.
    However when Satan is cast down, it is by Satan's authority that the AC rules.
    Can you show me scripture that says the AC's dominion is not legitimate or God given? If you believe in God's complete sovereignty I don't see how he could obtain his dominion without God's consent.


    Jesus though is given the deeds to the land. He comes to enforce His rule, which presently, and especially at that time, is not.
    You still haven't given me any scriptural proof where Jesus is given the 'deeds' early though. You are speaking as if you have, but I don't see it. Revelation 11:15, which speaks very specifically about this changeover, the transaction of the deed...where the "kingdoms of the world" become "the kingdoms of Christ" occurs in John's order after the seventh trumpet return of Christ/defeat of the AC. This fits the Daniel 7 timeline perfectly, the beast is destroyed (7:11), and Jesus receives the kingdom (in heaven) from God (7:14). Perhaps John leaves out the part where Christ receives the kingdom before God's throne.But the order of events is the same.

    You seem to accept the fact that the saints (through Christ) receive dominion of the Earth after the beast is destroyed by Christ in the interpretation of the vision in Dan 7:26,27 (directly from the Father and heavenly court). Where it specifically states that the AC's dominion is taken away by the Heavenly Court in 7:26 (not taken away by Christ at Armageddon) and then given to the saints. But you can't accept that Dan 7:13, 14, in the vision, occurs at the same time period? Jesus has to be part of the process of the saints receiving their dominion right? He's like the middle man, God gives dominion to him and the Jesus distributes the dominion among the saints correct? Why are you trying to relegate 7:13, 14 to some previous nebulous time period?

    All points of the chain of custody of the 'dominion of the earth' are shown in Dan 7:26. So let's follow it. The AC has this dominion first. You must have something in order for it to be taken away correct?

    ESV Dan 7:26 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end.

    So this "deed" is transferred first from the AC to the heavenly court in vs 26. Your opinion that Christ receives authority to occupy the beast's fallen kingdom automatically from defeating the beast at Armageddon is not correct. He must first retrieve the deed from the court in Heaven.

    This deed is then transferred from the court to Jesus, who is standing before them. In the vision's sequence of events this occurs after the AC is destroyed.

    Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


    In the place in the interpretation of the vision where Jesus receiving the dominion should be, the angel instead says that the saints receive dominion. As we both seem to know how intimately tied together Christ's receiving dominion and the saints receiving dominion is this shouldn't be a problem for us right? Again it's a three step process. The deed is taken from the AC by the court (But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away), the court in heaven rules to give the saints authority to occupy the land NAS (and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One,), and then the saints may occupy the land NAS(and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.)

    Everywhere it says 'saints' in the above sequence we should be able to substitute the name Jesus Christ, because we both understand that everything we receive is through him. So without disturbing any of the order in the Dan 7 vision, we arrive at the sequence 1. beast destroyed 2. Jesus (and saints) receive deed in heaven 3. Jesus and saints occupy kingdom on earth. This sequence is arrived at without any theory or speculation, only a reading of the plain text order of events. You are not going to be able to overcome this straightforward sequence just by speculating that Christ is crowned king of the earth sometime previously in absentia fitting a pattern by King David. Or that his title "King of kings, Lord of lords" (which he has had since the beginning) means that he was given the deed before departing heaven. Or a pattern you see from a parable. You must have some very convincing scriptural proof for me to kick Dan 7:13,14 out of it's place in the timeline.

    And it doesn't even effect the timeline if you were to kick Dan 7:13,14 out of it's place, because the saints still have to appear before the heavenly court to receive their favorable judgement in this timeslot. Jesus has to be there for this.

    Since you now say that the God the Father and the heavenly court are on the earth at this time, can you at least consider keeping Dan 7:13, 14 in it's place? I mean, Jesus and the saints would no longer have to return to heaven to stand before them if this is true. Just defeat the AC then head over to the heavenly throne room that's now on earth...

    If I were to rely solely on the parable, then it could be disastrous. However I see it as a supporting point.
    Np, I understand. I was very tempted to use a line from this parable ("bring my enemies and slay them before me") earlier in this thread to prove a different point lol. Still a good find for your POV, I have to admit.

    I get your thinking, however though the throne of God is presently in Heaven, the question is whether it remains in Heaven AFTER Jesus defeats the AC and the Tribulation is over. I think we agree this is a vision of post-Tribulation.
    For me the answer is given in Rev 21 & 22 when the throne of God is in the New Jerusalem. Further this action which is going on is one that John saw before.
    It matches when Jesus rode into Jerusalem and was acclaimed King.
    So let me try to wrap my head around this. You believe that after Christ defeats the AC and raptures the tribulation saints, the throne room of God, with the 24 elders and 4 living creatures descends upon the earthly city of Jerusalem. Then Christ brings the raptured saints to earthly Jerusalem to stand before the throne? Basically New Jerusalem descends and replaces the earthly city of Jerusalem? And you come to this conclusion because the multitude are waving palm branches? Are you an amil believer?


    It would default to the Father except the Father has ALREADY given it to the Son. IOW the Son comes to take what has been given to Him.
    The AC's dominion defaults to the Father and heavenly court as proved by Dan 7:26.


    Agreement is good.


    They are sad, but it is worse than that - for it is the THIRD WOE.


    Don't confuse Lord with Jesus. Jesus as God is King of Kings, but Jesus is crowned and declared King at the 7th trumpet.


    As God, He remains Lord, even when the AC reigns. He doesn't stop being Lord whilst the AC reigns. However He is not presently ruling as King. We will know the difference when He returns and does that.
    Sorry have to go out for awhile. I will answer the rest later if you feel that my opinion on these last matters weren't already addressed by what I posted so far. Take care.

    I'm back. I'll just edit the rest in since you haven't replied yet.

    Since agreement is good, I will say that I don't see any huge problems with the rest of your comments. Yes Jesus is Lord over all things, but he is not presently king of the earth, and that is the singular thing we are discussing. When and how he receives dominion of the earth.

    I would say that I don't believe that Rev 12:15 occurs at the third woe. The third woe is the seventh trumpet return of Christ. Revelation 12 seems to occur at the beginning of the persecution of the saints, the beginning of the AC's rule.

  14. #119
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Thanks brother I will continue to believe the words of Jesus over your personal opinions(but that's just me)

    Also anytime a brother asks for verses to something (like crush did) I will provide them.

    Unless you plan to say Jesus is wrong when he says those who attain the resurrection of the dead cannot die again?

    Since won't deny his words but instead try to teach contrary to his truth I don't believe there is anything else to say.

    Once more for all those who wonder if those who are resurrected can die again, I will just direct them to Luke 20:35-36

    Quote Jesus: But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

    Quote Keraz: I didn't say they couldn't live for the 1000 years. But they do not have immortality yet, so they can still die naturally or by accident.

    I leave it to the Reader to decide who to believe.

    God bless.
    Your accusations against a fellow believer, as though you have the truth and I contradict Jesus, recoils upon your own head.
    Luke 20:35 But they who shall be accounted worthy to attain that world and the resurrection from the dead.......KJV
    Other translations say:.....a place in the other world....REB

    What world? Obviously not this one, but the spiritual world as we know from the description of Eternity in Revelation 21.
    So your false assertion that immortality is given before and during the Millennium, just shows your inability to properly discern the prophesies.

  15. #120
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Your accusations against a fellow believer, as though you have the truth and I contradict Jesus, recoils upon your own head.
    First, i didn't claim I have the "truth" all I did was quote Jesus and then your personal doctrine, then I underlined how the ideas seem to be direct opposites.

    Your beliefs and His words seem to be opposed to each other on whether or not those who are resurrected can die again.

    Nowhere in my posts on this thread did i offer my "Opinions" as doctrine like you have on Luke 20 & Rev 20:4.

    Also, i'm 100% certain you are the one claiming your bothers here are all in false doctrine while only you maintain the truth

    A claim you made here.

    Quote Keraz: People who like to believe that immortality is conferred before the GWT Judgment and before the Book of Life is opened, may continue in that false belief.

    Clearly, you believe you have the Truth and all who don't believe as you do are in some "false belief".

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Luke 20:35 But they who shall be accounted worthy to attain that world and the resurrection from the dead.......KJV
    Other translations say:.....a place in the other world....REB
    What world? Obviously not this one, but the spiritual world as we know from the description of Eternity in Revelation 21.
    This is also incorrect the same Langue here is also used in Hebrews 2:5 which speaks once more of Jesus Millenial Reign.

    Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

    6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

    7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    But I will not delve into accusations against fellow believers like the one you level here

    Quote Keraz: So your false assertion that immortality is given before and during the Millennium, just shows your inability to properly discern the prophecies.

    Nice "brother"

    Keep attacking those who don't share your beliefs "brother" that's how you get others to come to your truth! Look how well it's working on these threads for you.

    Instead, why don't we follow the instructions of Paul to Timothy?

    2 Timothy 2:23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servants must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

    As i said let the reader decide:

    Here is what Jesus says
    Luke 20:35-36
    But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

    Here it what Keraz Teaches:

    Quote Keraz: I didn't say they couldn't live for the 1000 years. But they do not have immortality yet, so they can still die naturally or by accident.

    Do these two doctrines seem the same to you?

    Because they honestly seem opposed to me and If there is a conflict I choose the words of Jesus over personal opinions and doctrine of Men especially on Rev 20:4.

    I have asked you to highlight where your doctrine is present in that passage and I will continue to wait.

    Once more I don't want your commentary I just ask you quote the passage and bold or underline the section in which you believe the doctrine you teach is present.

    NOTE: What I say and my opinions are NOT being posted here as the "truth" nor do I claim I have the "truth" and all my brothers who don't share my belief are in false doctrine. That's, not my job I'm here to study and learn from what my fellow brothers can teach me. I asked you to bring forth passages to support your claims i have done so even if you don't agree and i ask you to do the same.

    So 3 Questions for Keraz (if he chooses to answer, if not that's fine I'm not trying to hijack your thread)

    1. Does Jesus say in Luke 20:36 That those who take part in the Ressurection of the Dead Cannot Die?

    2. Do you believe and teach that those who take Part in the Ressurection of the dead in Rev 20:4 Can Die?

    3. Can you provide any bible passages that support the idea that those who take part in the First resurrection can die again?

    I see no attacks in my post nor any accusations but if you choose to play the victim so you can ignore my questions that is fine.

    As I said in the previous post Let the Reader Judge.

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