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Thread: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

  1. #121

    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Hi Trivalee,
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Please tell me how your answer "that Christ' return is the cause of death of the AC" corresponds in any shape or form to what I said? And for your benefit and other readers, I have recapped above!
    Ok I see my error now. You are saying that Christ is not present at the battle of Zech 14. I guess it was too difficult for me to understand a POV stating Christ is not present at a battle that begins with Christ's feet planted firmly on the Mount of Olives.




    I am once again compelled to recap what I said in my previous post to highlight your inexplicable penchant for ignoring what I said and coming up with unrelated answers. I don't see anything in my post that suggests the AC is going to destroy Israel as a nation.
    Sorry again. It seemed to me, and still does, that you were saying that the nation of Israel would not accept the mark of the beast because they reject the AC as their mashiach. And for this reason he attacks the nation.


    God Bless your further studies....

  2. #122
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Thanks brother I will continue to believe the words of Jesus over your personal opinions(but that's just me)

    Also anytime a brother asks for verses to something (like crush did) I will provide them.

    Unless you plan to say Jesus is wrong when he says those who attain the resurrection of the dead cannot die again?

    Since won't deny his words but instead try to teach contrary to his truth I don't believe there is anything else to say.

    Once more for all those who wonder if those who are resurrected can die again, I will just direct them to Luke 20:35-36

    Quote Jesus: But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels. And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God.

    Quote Keraz: I didn't say they couldn't live for the 1000 years. But they do not have immortality yet, so they can still die naturally or by accident.

    I leave it to the Reader to decide who to believe.

    God bless.
    Thanks for keeping it real Brother, I'm with you all the way. The word of God cannot lie. The problem is when we misunderstand it and refuse to be corrected. Bless

  3. #123
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post

    So 3 Questions for Keraz (if he chooses to answer, if not that's fine I'm not trying to hijack your thread)

    1. Does Jesus say in Luke 20:36 That those who take part in the Ressurection of the Dead Cannot Die?

    2. Do you believe and teach that those who take Part in the Ressurection of the dead in Rev 20:4 Can Die?

    3. Can you provide any bible passages that support the idea that those who take part in the First resurrection can die again?

    I see no attacks in my post nor any accusations but if you choose to play the victim so you can ignore my questions that is fine.

    As I said in the previous post Let the Reader Judge.
    I am willing to refute the idea of immortality before the Book of life is opened, for as long as it takes.

    1/ Yes He does, but He doesn't say when this happens. We know from Revelation 20- 21, that the resurrection into Eternal life is at the GWT Judgement of every person.

    2/ I do, because it says they may die again, but that second death has no power over them. Their names are in the Book of Life. Jesus and Elijah, etc, have resurrected people, who then died again. This coming back to life of the martyrs will be similar.

    3/ As above and the OT saints who were resurrected at the death of Jesus, Matthew 27:52. They all died again.

    It is you that is the victim: of teachings that contradict Bible truth.
    When genuine consideration is made toward the question of when immortality is given to those worthy, then any time before Eternity, is simply illogical and plainly unscriptural.

  4. #124
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    1.Does Jesus say in Luke 20:36 That those who take part in the Ressurection of the Dead Cannot Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    1/ Yes He does, but He doesn't say when this happens.

    2.Do you believe and teach that those who take Part in the Ressurection of the dead in Rev 20:4 Can Die?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    2/ I do, because it says they may die again, but that second death has no power over them. Their names are in the Book of Life.
    Please, can you provide the verse and highlight or bold the section where "IT" says "They May Die Again" as you claim above?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Jesus and Elijah, etc, have resurrected people, who then died again. This coming back to life of the martyrs will be similar.
    Can you show any examples of Jesus or Elijah ressurecting people AFTER the ressurection of Christ when those people died again?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    3/ As above and the OT saints who were resurrected at the death of Jesus, Matthew 27:52. They all died again.
    Were these people resurrected before or after the Ressurection of Christ? Where in the bible does it state they "died again"?

  5. #125
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post

    Were these people resurrected before or after the Ressurection of Christ? Where in the bible does it state they "died again"?
    Are you implying that Lazarus and those OT saints are still alive?
    Please give us your explanation for the 'second death' in Revelation 20:6.

  6. #126
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Please give us your explanation for the 'second death' in Revelation 20:6.
    The second death is the final judgment. ( lake of fire ). Once the time of amazing grace and Gods patience and Gospel proclamation is over, it will come into effect through the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  7. #127
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Are you implying that Lazarus and those OT saints are still alive?
    Are you suggesting or Implying that those who showed themselves in Jerusalem went on to rejoin their families and live full lives again until they died of Natural causes or Accidents including OT Saints like Isaiah or Jacob. Or do you believe after they presented themselves in Jerusalem they then went back into their graves and went back to sleep(and you call this dieing again)?

    I did not bring up this passage personally.(Matthew 27:52)

    But it is not my belief, nor is it explicitly stated that these people died again.

    So I don't believe this should be used as a proof-text in support of either view. (this is just my personal opinion).

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Please give us your explanation for the 'second death' in Revelation 20:6.
    I don't have an "explanation" if anyone wants to know what the second death is I suggest they read Rev 20:14:15 I will, however, explain what I personally understand from these passages.

    Once more I will bold what parts of the passage are relevant to my understanding of the Second death.

    And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    To me, the second death is being Cast into the Lake of Fire.

    So in Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    This to me says that no one who takes part in the First resurreection will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

    Also this part of the passage: but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    To me suggest all who are Resurrected are guaranteed to live all 1K years with Christ as Co-Rulers.

    Do you know of any kings who reign while dead?

    Does this passage not specify the length of time that these individuals reign "with Christ"?

  8. #128
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    As this discussion has gone completely off topic, I won't reply to issues about what happens when Jesus Returns.
    These things simply aren't fully revealed to us and speculation is really fruitless.

    My aim and the object of this thread, is to point out to whoever who cares to listen; how the Lord will bring His Judgement against the nations. The event that comes as sudden destruction, 1 Thess 5:3 and is the event that comes as a thief; unexpectedly to everyone.

  9. #129
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    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Hi ForHisglory,
    Can you show me scripture that says the AC's dominion is not legitimate or God given? If you believe in God's complete sovereignty I don't see how he could obtain his dominion without God's consent.
    Rev 13:2 has the dragon give the beast his power, throne and authority.
    Really the question is whether Satan's dominion is legitimate?
    This is maybe a bigger discussion than this thread. In short God allows this dominion for His own purposes, but that doesn't mean God crowned the AC.

    You still haven't given me any scriptural proof where Jesus is given the 'deeds' early though. You are speaking as if you have, but I don't see it. Revelation 11:15, which speaks very specifically about this changeover, the transaction of the deed...where the "kingdoms of the world" become "the kingdoms of Christ" occurs in John's order after the seventh trumpet return of Christ/defeat of the AC. This fits the Daniel 7 timeline perfectly, the beast is destroyed (7:11), and Jesus receives the kingdom (in heaven) from God (7:14). Perhaps John leaves out the part where Christ receives the kingdom before God's throne.But the order of events is the same.
    Rev 11:15 is indeed when Jesus is crowned. The mistake you seem to make is that you confuse this declaration of the deeds being given, with its actuality.
    Everything in scripture is declared first, and then it happens afterwards.
    We see that throughout Revelation.
    So a trumpet is blown, then the events of that trumpet are stated, then the events happen.

    I think I understand your confusion over the timing, as you make Dan 7 into a strictly chronological event, so as verse 11 is stated before verse 13 so you have the beast destroyed before the dominion is given.
    However just like in Revelation there are more than one vision which gives other viewpoints so that you understand what is happening. In verse 12 Daniel sees another vision. Note verse 1 Daniel states he has a dream (singular) in which he had visions (plural).
    The main vision is that of the 4 beasts, but then in verse 7 we have a second vision which focuses on the 4th beast, then in verse 11 we have the third vision, this time of God, finally in verse 15 within this dream of visions Daniel then gets an interpretation of those things.
    Verse 17 speaks of the first vision.
    Verse 18 speaks of the third.
    So then Daniel wants to understand the second and asks in verse 19 and in verse 23 this vision is explained.
    The timing here is not about when Jesus is crowned, but about when the beast is destroyed. he is destroyed because the courts have ruled in favour of Jesus, who then comes and destroys the AC. IOW the dominion is given to Jesus BEFORE the AC is destroyed, but it is when the AC is destroyed that this dominion comes into reality.

    So this "deed" is transferred first from the AC to the heavenly court in vs 26. Your opinion that Christ receives authority to occupy the beast's fallen kingdom automatically from defeating the beast at Armageddon is not correct. He must first retrieve the deed from the court in Heaven.
    Definitely, Jesus is crowned BEFORE He executes the judgement of the court, which means your understanding of the order is wrong.
    The order is the courts rule in Jesus favour, so then He is crowned and He executes the AC. If the AC was ALREADY slain then there would be no need for any courts to rule against the beast.

    Since you now say that the God the Father and the heavenly court are on the earth at this time, can you at least consider keeping Dan 7:13, 14 in it's place? I mean, Jesus and the saints would no longer have to return to heaven to stand before them if this is true. Just defeat the AC then head over to the heavenly throne room that's now on earth...
    The throne descends in the New Jerusalem, which happens AFTER the defeat of the AC.
    So no I cannot put Dan 13 in the wrong place.

    So let me try to wrap my head around this. You believe that after Christ defeats the AC and raptures the tribulation saints, the throne room of God, with the 24 elders and 4 living creatures descends upon the earthly city of Jerusalem. Then Christ brings the raptured saints to earthly Jerusalem to stand before the throne? Basically New Jerusalem descends and replaces the earthly city of Jerusalem? And you come to this conclusion because the multitude are waving palm branches? Are you an amil believer?
    I am not amil but premil.
    However I see the NHNE being in line with Isa 65 and Dan 2.
    This means the following:
    1) Jesus is in heaven
    2) Jesus is crowned King of Kings
    3) Jesus descends from heaven
    4) The saints are raptured and meet Jesus in the sky
    5) Jesus continues His descent to defeat the AC (bringing us with Him)
    6) This descent of the bride is described in Rev 21 where the earthly Jerusalem (which was destroyed) is replaced by the New Jerusalem.
    7) The conquering king enters the NJ having defeated the AC and comes to sit on His throne.
    8) The saints (who had passed through the tribulation) welcome Him as King.

    You see the focus during the Millennium is not on the Father but on the Son.

    I would say that I don't believe that Rev 12:15 occurs at the third woe. The third woe is the seventh trumpet return of Christ. Revelation 12 seems to occur at the beginning of the persecution of the saints, the beginning of the AC's rule.
    Rev 12:15 explicitly states it is woe, and there is only one woe left.
    Rev 11:15 makes zero mention of woe.
    Rev 11 and 12 are the same event with cause and effect. The first is that of Jesus in Heaven receiving the crown. From this the war in heaven has a climax with Satan kicked out for good. Rev 12 is then the effect on earth with the rule of the AC.

    All the previous seals and trumpets are not the Great Tribulation. they are rather the birth pangs, the tumult of the nations etc. It is only the 7th trumpet, the 7 vials and the wrath of Satan which is the GT, when the AC is allowed to defeat the saints.

  10. #130

    Re: The Lord's Day of Vengeance and Wrath

    Hi ForHisglory,
    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 13:2 has the dragon give the beast his power, throne and authority.
    Really the question is whether Satan's dominion is legitimate?
    This is maybe a bigger discussion than this thread. In short God allows this dominion for His own purposes, but that doesn't mean God crowned the AC.
    Yes I agree God allows it. And no, I don't think that God ceremonially crowns the AC or anything like that.

    Rev 11:15 is indeed when Jesus is crowned. The mistake you seem to make is that you confuse this declaration of the deeds being given, with its actuality.
    Everything in scripture is declared first, and then it happens afterwards.
    We see that throughout Revelation.
    So a trumpet is blown, then the events of that trumpet are stated, then the events happen.

    I think I understand your confusion over the timing, as you make Dan 7 into a strictly chronological event, so as verse 11 is stated before verse 13 so you have the beast destroyed before the dominion is given.
    However just like in Revelation there are more than one vision which gives other viewpoints so that you understand what is happening. In verse 12 Daniel sees another vision. Note verse 1 Daniel states he has a dream (singular) in which he had visions (plural).
    The main vision is that of the 4 beasts, but then in verse 7 we have a second vision which focuses on the 4th beast, then in verse 11 we have the third vision, this time of God, finally in verse 15 within this dream of visions Daniel then gets an interpretation of those things.
    Verse 17 speaks of the first vision.
    Verse 18 speaks of the third.
    So then Daniel wants to understand the second and asks in verse 19 and in verse 23 this vision is explained.
    The timing here is not about when Jesus is crowned, but about when the beast is destroyed. he is destroyed because the courts have ruled in favour of Jesus, who then comes and destroys the AC. IOW the dominion is given to Jesus BEFORE the AC is destroyed, but it is when the AC is destroyed that this dominion comes into reality.
    Is the interpretation also out of order? Should vs 26 be placed before vs 25? Does not the court take away the dominion of the AC AFTER his reign? How can you then say his dominion is taken away from him before his reign begins? Couldn't it possibly be that Daniel or the Angelic interpreter are not the ones that have things jumbled up? Is that beyond the realm of possibility?

    Dan 7:25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

    And yes I do read the whole of Dan 7 as strictly sequential, just like all his other prophecies and visions. You have a point with John in Rev, he does seem to jump around a bit.


    Definitely, Jesus is crowned BEFORE He executes the judgement of the court, which means your understanding of the order is wrong.
    The order is the courts rule in Jesus favour, so then He is crowned and He executes the AC. If the AC was ALREADY slain then there would be no need for any courts to rule against the beast.


    The throne descends in the New Jerusalem, which happens AFTER the defeat of the AC.
    So no I cannot put Dan 13 in the wrong place.


    I am not amil but premil.
    However I see the NHNE being in line with Isa 65 and Dan 2.
    This means the following:
    1) Jesus is in heaven
    2) Jesus is crowned King of Kings
    3) Jesus descends from heaven
    4) The saints are raptured and meet Jesus in the sky
    5) Jesus continues His descent to defeat the AC (bringing us with Him)
    6) This descent of the bride is described in Rev 21 where the earthly Jerusalem (which was destroyed) is replaced by the New Jerusalem.
    7) The conquering king enters the NJ having defeated the AC and comes to sit on His throne.
    8) The saints (who had passed through the tribulation) welcome Him as King.

    You see the focus during the Millennium is not on the Father but on the Son.


    Rev 12:15 explicitly states it is woe, and there is only one woe left.
    Rev 11:15 makes zero mention of woe.
    Rev 11 and 12 are the same event with cause and effect. The first is that of Jesus in Heaven receiving the crown. From this the war in heaven has a climax with Satan kicked out for good. Rev 12 is then the effect on earth with the rule of the AC.

    All the previous seals and trumpets are not the Great Tribulation. they are rather the birth pangs, the tumult of the nations etc. It is only the 7th trumpet, the 7 vials and the wrath of Satan which is the GT, when the AC is allowed to defeat the saints.
    Anyway thanks for your thoughtful reply. I see we have two major doctrinal issues that are keeping us from agreement. The timing of the 7th trumpet and when NJ descends from heaven.

    You see the 7th trumpet happening before the AC's reign begins which is causing you to see the Rev 11:15 transfer of the AC's dominion to Christ as happening before his reign begins. I see the 7th trumpet as the return of Christ, which puts the transfer at the destruction of the AC. I can understand how Rev 11:15 would make Dan 7:12,13 seem out of sequence to you. But it still seems quite illogical to me that the AC's dominion would be taken away from him before the beginning of his reign.

    Thanks for the discussion

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