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Thread: Salvation from what?

  1. #1

    Salvation from what?



    I think Pink makes a very important point concerning evangelism.

    What say you?

    Thanks!

    ~Deut

    Luke 5
    31 Jesus answered and said to them, it is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.
    32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

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    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post


    I think Pink makes a very important point concerning evangelism.

    What say you?

    Thanks!

    ~Deut

    Luke 5
    31 Jesus answered and said to them, it is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.
    32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.
    I haven't heard a "fire and brimstone" sermon lately.
    If we are talking about the lost-- God knows what each needs to "hear" not distorting the Gospel at any turn.
    Peace to you!

    “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
    (Matthew 5:5)


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    Re: Salvation from what?

    I think that many of the unregenerate's seek salvation for their physical well-being (escape the fire) and not their spiritual well-being.
    Also, I think that we rush people through "salvation" without being taught anything about it. Perhaps it would be wise to bring back the old "mourners bench" or bring applicants through a Salvation 101 Class before they are led further.

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    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post


    [SIZE=3]I think Pink makes a very important point concerning evangelism.

    What say you?

    Thanks!

    ~Deut
    I think he is quite correct. Man's salvation is only partially for the just deserts of enmity with God and having offended Him. Here is my understanding of man's salvation "to the uttermost" (Heb.7:25).

    1. Man, in order to function "up to the standard" of God, that is, to "like" Him and be in His image, had to eat from the Tree of Life and become partaker of the divine life. Adam's transgression caused him, and the rest of men who came out of his loins, to be barred from the Source of Divine Life. Man needs to be partaker of God's Life, and for this the spirit of man is made. Unless a man gets the Holy Spirit into his spirit (Jn.3:6, 15-16) he is doomed to be not what he was made for. The rebirth by the holy Spirit of the spirit of man is vital.
    2. Shortly after the fall of Adam, "... GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5). That is, the Serpentine nature of Satan had fully pervaded man's soul. His thoughts, feelings and decisions were always evil. The SOUL of man, that is, his thinking, feeling and deciding organs, had to be changed from Adam-like to Christ-like. Peter sets forth a process where by the power and effort of the Holy Spirit, and through effort and suffering of the believer, a process called "transformation" takes place. See 2nd Corinthians 3:18, Romans 12:2, and 1 Peter 1:6-9 where, "... ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations, That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: ... Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."
    3. Man's flesh is insatiably wicked. Romans 7 establishes that "no good thing dwells in our flesh" and that it is a "body of death" (vs.18, 20, 24). Paul, under inspiration, calls it a, "vile body" (Phil.3:21), and that we continually "groan" in it (Rom.8:23; 2nd Cor.5:2, 4). In Galatians 5:17, "... the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would", the body makes war against the spirit. The body of man must be changed, and that is achieved by allowing it to die and being resurrected. There will be a portion of Christians who will not see death because they are alive at Christ's coming, but the sentence of Eden is "death to the body" (Gen.3:19). BUT we have the promise of Resurrection in the which, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption" (1st Corinthians 15:42). Romans 8:23 calls it, "... to wit, the redemption of our body".
    4. Man was made to "have dominion over the earth, sea and sky and their contents" (Gen.3:26-28). If a man does not end up ruling the earth and its environs, he is not "saved to the uttermost". Our Lord Jesus taught this, so when he shows His disciples, who expected to rule with Him, that a rich man would hardly enter the Kingdom of Heaven, that is, when Christ sets up heavenly rule over the earth and its environs after He comes, they were astonished and said in Matthew 19:25, "... Who then can be saved?" Any Christian, like the slothful servants of the Parables and like the ill-equipped Virgins of Matthew 25, who do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven as co-kings with Christ, has FAILED in being "saved to the uttermost". Peter sets forth the "WAY" to enter the Kingdom. In 2 Peter 1:5-11 he says that the Christian, not God, must add to his faith certain virtues, to, "... give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

    In this sequence and process, just as our brother Pink stated, the Lake of Fire fades, and the WHOLE SANCTIFICATION of the saint comes to the fore.

  5. #5

    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post
    I think Pink makes a very important point concerning evangelism.

    Pink is also misrepresenting salvation, since salvation (deliverance) from Hell is definitely one major aspect of salvation. Salvation (deliverance) from sin (the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin) is also another major aspect of salvation.

    When people concoct aphorisms, they often omit important points, although they sound good. Strangely enough, Pink believed in a literal and eternal Hell, so why he would even make such a statement is puzzling.


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    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post

    Pink is also misrepresenting salvation, since salvation (deliverance) from Hell is definitely one major aspect of salvation. Salvation (deliverance) from sin (the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin) is also another major aspect of salvation.

    When people concoct aphorisms, they often omit important points, although they sound good. Strangely enough, Pink believed in a literal and eternal Hell, so why he would even make such a statement is puzzling.

    Have you ever done a search for any verse in the Bible which says that our Lord came to save men from hell? In Pink's second sentence, the one we discuss, is it not all-encompassing to preach salvation from sin rather than the single aspect of retribution? Let us see what sin does to a man.
    • He has offended God and can expect retribution (Isa.66:24)
    • He must exist forever in contempt, an "abhorring" (Isa.66:24)
    • He must exist forever in pain (Matt.10:28)
    • He is driven from the Tree of Life
    • He is alienated from God, the worst enemy to have in this universe (or any other)
    • He is alienated from God's presence, the source of maximum well-being (Ps.16:11, 36:8)
    • He has an conscience in turmoil forever (1st Pet.3:21)
    • If he is an Israelite he is inheritor of all the curses of Deuteronomy 28 (54 verses of them)
    • He must die physically (Rom.6:23)
    • He cannot do good even if he tries (Romans 7)
    • He may not do that for which he is made - rule the earth (Gen.1:26-28)
    • He may not be the intimate Bride of Christ
    • He is bread for Satan (Gen.3.14; 1st Pet.5:8)

    I dare say brother Pink has a point.

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    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I haven't heard a "fire and brimstone" sermon lately.
    If we are talking about the lost-- God knows what each needs to "hear" not distorting the Gospel at any turn.
    Here you go..

    Sinners in the Hands of
    An Angry God


    (Deuteronomy 32:35)

    Jonathan Edwards

    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/...s.sinners.html


    Jude
    “He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose.”

    ― Jim Elliot


  8. #8

    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Have you ever done a search for any verse in the Bible which says that our Lord came to save men from hell?
    Actually you don't have to do an extensive search to discover that Christ came to save people from Hell. John 3:16 will suffice.

    King James Bible
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Do you notice that little phrase "should not perish"? Well that is speaking about eternal Hell (unless you are an Annihilationist and would deny that).

    Strong's Concordance
    apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
    Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: apollumi
    Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
    Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
    Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon
    STRONGS NT 622: ἀπόλλυμι

    a.
    of persons; (a). properly: Matthew 8:25; Luke 13:3, 5, 33; John 11:50; 2 Peter 3:6; Jude 1:11, etc.;ἀπόλλυμαι λιμῷ, Luke 15:17; ἐν μαχαρια,Matthew 26:52; καταβαλλόμενοι, ἀλλ' οὐκἀπολλύμενοι, 2 Corinthians 4:9. (b). tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery: John 3:15 (R Lbr.), ;(it must be borne in mind, that according to John's conception eternal life begins on earth, just as soon as one becomes united to Christ by faith); Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:18; 2 Peter 3:9. Hence, οἱ σῳζόμενοι they to whom it belongs to partake of salvation, and οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι those to whom it belongs to perish or to be consigned to eternal misery, are contrasted by Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 (on these present participles, cf. Winers Grammar, 342 (321); Buttmann, 206 (178)).

    Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words

    Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive

    A — 1: ἀπόλλυμι

    (Strong's #622 — Verb — apollumi — ap-ol'-loo-mee )
    a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37 ; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6 , etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24 ; of the perishing of food, John 6:27 ; of gold, 1 Peter 1:7 . So of persons, Matthew 2:13 , "destroy;" Matthew 8:25 , "perish;" Matthew 22:7 ;27:20 ; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; John 3:16 (ver. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Romans 2:12 ; 1 Corinthians 15:18 ; 2 Corinthians 2:15 , "are perishing;" 2 Corinthians 4:3 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 ; James 4:12 ; 2 Peter 3:9 . Cp. B, II, No. 1. See DIE , LOSE , MARRED ,PERISH.


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    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    Actually you don't have to do an extensive search to discover that Christ came to save people from Hell. John 3:16 will suffice.

    King James Bible
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Do you notice that little phrase "should not perish"? Well that is speaking about eternal Hell (unless you are an Annihilationist and would deny that).

    Strong's Concordance
    apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
    Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: apollumi
    Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
    Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
    Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).

    Thayer's Greek Lexicon
    STRONGS NT 622: ἀπόλλυμι

    a.
    of persons; (a). properly: Matthew 8:25; Luke 13:3, 5, 33; John 11:50; 2 Peter 3:6; Jude 1:11, etc.;ἀπόλλυμαι λιμῷ, Luke 15:17; ἐν μαχαρια,Matthew 26:52; καταβαλλόμενοι, ἀλλ' οὐκἀπολλύμενοι, 2 Corinthians 4:9. (b). tropically, to incur the loss of true or eternal life; to be delivered up to eternal misery: John 3:15 (R Lbr.), ;(it must be borne in mind, that according to John's conception eternal life begins on earth, just as soon as one becomes united to Christ by faith); Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:18; 2 Peter 3:9. Hence, οἱ σῳζόμενοι they to whom it belongs to partake of salvation, and οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι those to whom it belongs to perish or to be consigned to eternal misery, are contrasted by Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:18; 2 Corinthians 2:15; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 (on these present participles, cf. Winers Grammar, 342 (321); Buttmann, 206 (178)).

    Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words

    Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive

    A — 1: ἀπόλλυμι

    (Strong's #622 — Verb — apollumi — ap-ol'-loo-mee )
    a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37 ; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6 , etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24 ; of the perishing of food, John 6:27 ; of gold, 1 Peter 1:7 . So of persons, Matthew 2:13 , "destroy;" Matthew 8:25 , "perish;" Matthew 22:7 ;27:20 ; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; John 3:16 (ver. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Romans 2:12 ; 1 Corinthians 15:18 ; 2 Corinthians 2:15 , "are perishing;" 2 Corinthians 4:3 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 ; James 4:12 ; 2 Peter 3:9 . Cp. B, II, No. 1. See DIE , LOSE , MARRED ,PERISH.

    Well ... that is all true, but I was asking if you could find ONE verse that said that our Lord Jesus came to save men from hell. A verse like Matthew 1:21; "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins", which is what Mr. Pink said, only you said in posting #5 that ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 posting #5

    Pink is also misrepresenting salvation, since salvation (deliverance) from Hell is definitely one major aspect of salvation. Salvation (deliverance) from sin (the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin) is also another major aspect of salvation.

    When people concoct aphorisms, they often omit important points, although they sound good. Strangely enough, Pink believed in a literal and eternal Hell, so why he would even make such a statement is puzzling.
    ... but you are unable to find ONE SINGLE verse that says "... for he shall save his people from HELL."

    Now, this is all the more critical because in Matthew 1:21 ISRAEL IS MEANT, seeing as Jesus / Emmanuel is King of the Jews and Israel are "His people" (see also Matthew 2:6). The Church had not yet been revealed. The reference to Emmanuel in the next verses is from Isaiah 7 - a Book written to Israel. The phrase, "my people" appears 231 times in the Bible. Up to the Book of Romans it exclusively means Israel. But Israel pointedly DO NOT BELIEVE, as your verse in John demands. They never have faith and only admit their Messiah when they see Him coming from the clouds*. That is, Israel will be saved from their sins WITHOUT believing. Maybe Mr. Pink is right and is not misrepresenting the gospel.

    * Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is is the substance of things UNSEEN. That is, as soon as the object is SEEN, faith is no more. Israel will accept our Lord by SIGHT and thus they cannot be eligible for any verse that has faith as a prerequisite - YET THEY ARE SAVED FROM THEIR SINS. Isaiah alone we have these promises to Israel;
    Isaiah 1:18; "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
    Isaiah 43:25; "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins."
    Isaiah 44:22; "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee."

    Have you ever heard this gospel before from a Christian Evangelist? And have you ever been taught the dozen or so points I made in my posting above? If not, then Mr. Pink is correct. He does not deny that believers are saved from hell. He merely said that because of the above omissions, the gospel is misrepresented.

  10. #10

    Re: Salvation from what?

    The two would go together. If you are completely free from sin, there is nothing guilty in you that would be worthy of condemnation. The only example we have of that is Jesus. That's why he's the Savior.
    "The eyes of the LORD are in every place, keeping watch on the evil and the good."
    Prov 15:3

  11. #11

    Re: Salvation from what?

    I believe first of all, that we have entered a level of deceptive in current Christianity which is another gospel...
    This was forwarded of in the Bible.
    So this is fairly simple but I hope I can make it clear in my explanation.
    Our forefathers have taught much from a gospel based in law...if you want to be saved, it's primarily about following the rules. Of course relationship is important. But for the sake of salvation, you must be following the rules. That is a simplified version and there is a lot of good reason behind the teaching of righteousness and the law...which is backed up by Scripture.
    Currently we are taught the gospel of grace. We don't get salvation through a checklist of rules, that God's grace is enough to cover all of our sins, and that we focus on loving him and loving others and that although we should be trying to live righteously, for the sake of our salvation, we get in not based on whether we followed the rules, because we received salvation by grace, and we continue in grace. Again, there's a lot of truth in this teaching, a lot of basic that is backed up by scripture.
    But I believe that both are a false teaching of gospel and salvation. Here why;
    Jesus Christ came and taught a gospel of repentance. We receive salvation, based on our repentance. I like to say it this way;
    God's grace is enough to cover all of our sins, but we don't receive ACCESS to that grace, except through repentance, and with repentance, we have a desire to follow God's laws.
    So what do we receive salvation from? Both. But God works in us to bring us freedom from sin, during the entire course of our lives...we don't become fully free from sin, while we belong still to this earth because of our sin nature and the carnality of our physical flesh.

  12. #12
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    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post


    I think Pink makes a very important point concerning evangelism.

    What say you?

    Thanks!

    ~Deut

    Luke 5
    31 Jesus answered and said to them, it is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.
    32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.
    I don't know who pink is... Or what He taught. However I will say that the Church today indeed needs some fire and brimstone teaching. I am only 45, and yet, I remember as a young boy when I went to a Pentecostal four square church with my grandparents and they were marching around, and the sermons were scary to me as a kid! I remember hearing sermons that were warnings of Hell. You don't hear those any more... But I think that is about to change. There is coming a new teaching through the Church. One of Judgement at the Coming of Jesus Christ. One that is very scary for Christians who are not walking in accordance to Christ's commandments, and are not performing works manifested by the Love in their heart for Christ. So then I welcome the preaching of fire and brimstone as to warn those away from the furnace. As Jesus warns about those in His kingdom,

    Matt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

  13. #13

    Re: Salvation from what?

    The simplicity of salvation baffles most of the individuals. Most of the people feel the urge to do something to get redemption in return. However, it is a gift provided by God. For the salvation of human beings, Jesus Christ has already paid the price by being on the cross. You can be saved only if you have faith in Lord. Redemption is easy and simple just like drinking water, eating bread, opening a door and calling for help.

    https://goevangelismtract.wordpress.com

  14. #14

    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post


    [SIZE=3]I think Pink makes a very important point concerning evangelism.

    What say you?

    Thanks!

    ~Deut
    I say he's right, and he died in 1952! So many times when I read something written by Christians who lived and died before my time, such as Tozer and Spurgeon and in this case, Pink, they seem to be speaking to what I see today.

    What he's referring to with the "multitudes who wish to escape the Lake of fire who have no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness" can also be termed ''fire insurance.'' I see that a lot among today's Christians who have the mindset of ''what can Jesus do for me'' without counting the cost of what it really means to follow Him, as He admonished His disciples to do in Luke 14.

    I do think the way the salvation message is often presented has a lot to do with it. For example, I've been in many preaching services where the ''salvation from Hell'' message was preached to a congregation of already saved individuals. Not very often do I recall hearing a ''saved from sin'' sermon based on Romans 6, for example. I think that's part of the reason Christians often don't grow beyond the ''milk'' stage; why they're never able to handle the ''strong meat'' of doctrinal studies and such.

    A certain amount of the problem comes from the ''easy believism'' approach that has pastors or evangelists out door knocking and trying to ''seal the deal'' with someone who's shown an interest in the things of the Lord before they completely understand that there's more to the Christian life than ''praying the prayer,'' for example.

    Salvation from Hell is a big part of the answer to ''saved from what?" However, ''saved from sin'' encompasses growth and sanctification, and ''saved from self'' encompasses becoming a new creature in Christ and the death and putting off of the old man. Becoming a new creature in Christ was what I was excited about when I was first saved. I felt like a butterfly starting to emerge from metamorphosis.

    Just some thoughts that came to mind.

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    Re: Salvation from what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy0fGrace View Post
    I say he's right, and he died in 1952! So many times when I read something written by Christians who lived and died before my time, such as Tozer and Spurgeon and in this case, Pink, they seem to be speaking to what I see today.

    What he's referring to with the "multitudes who wish to escape the Lake of fire who have no desire to be delivered from their carnality and worldliness" can also be termed ''fire insurance.'' I see that a lot among today's Christians who have the mindset of ''what can Jesus do for me'' without counting the cost of what it really means to follow Him, as He admonished His disciples to do in Luke 14.

    I do think the way the salvation message is often presented has a lot to do with it. For example, I've been in many preaching services where the ''salvation from Hell'' message was preached to a congregation of already saved individuals. Not very often do I recall hearing a ''saved from sin'' sermon based on Romans 6, for example. I think that's part of the reason Christians often don't grow beyond the ''milk'' stage; why they're never able to handle the ''strong meat'' of doctrinal studies and such.

    A certain amount of the problem comes from the ''easy believism'' approach that has pastors or evangelists out door knocking and trying to ''seal the deal'' with someone who's shown an interest in the things of the Lord before they completely understand that there's more to the Christian life than ''praying the prayer,'' for example.

    Salvation from Hell is a big part of the answer to ''saved from what?" However, ''saved from sin'' encompasses growth and sanctification, and ''saved from self'' encompasses becoming a new creature in Christ and the death and putting off of the old man. Becoming a new creature in Christ was what I was excited about when I was first saved. I felt like a butterfly starting to emerge from metamorphosis.

    Just some thoughts that came to mind.
    Nice posting. I share your sentiments.

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