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Thread: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

  1. #31

    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Maybe the source of your bewilderment stems from how you look at the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. You see the difference in terms of a prescriptive system of practices, rather than in terms of an inwardness.
    Inwardness is, I agree, an important principle, whether under the Old Covenant or under the New Covenant. But that "inwardness" discards the elements of the Old Covenant when we enter into the New Covenant. That's because those old elements of the Old Covenant belong to the Old Covenant and not to the New Covenant. Why anyone should want to restore the Old Covenant as external practices is beyond me? Perhaps they still think the Jewish People have some kind of superior system?

  2. #32
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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    You need to face the contradictions in your position:

    1) Why is restored Israel described as having long lives and blessing as per Isaiah 65 , yet NT believers have eternal life and resurrected bodies?
    2) Why does restored Israel of Ezekiel 40-48 have to be cleansed for 8 days before being accepted when in the NT we are guaranteed right standing before God at ALL times through faith?
    3) Why does EZekiel 40-48 refer to an animal sacrifice system for restored Israel when Hebrews 10 says the church never requires sacrifice ever again because Jesus sacrifice cleanses forever?
    4) Why does the restored Israel of Ezekiel 40-48 have marriage when the NT states that the resurrected church will not be married in the afterlife?

    If you can deal with the contradictions in your position then maybe you have a point.
    The New Testament deals with any contradictions.
    WE Christians ARE the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16 Grafted into Israel by faith and now the children of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26
    Your points:
    1/ Resurrection for everyone happens at the Great White Throne Judgement, only then is Eternal life conferred to those whose names are in the Book of life.
    2/ Cleansing is a requirement of God for anyone in His holy Land. He will give us a new heart and write His Laws in our minds. Hebrews 8:10-12
    3/ The sacrifices are for offerings and thanksgiving. Ezekiel 20:41, Zephaniah 3:10
    4/ We are not in the afterlife yet. Isaiah 62:1-5 says how it will be for us, as we live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Psalms 68:1-10

  3. #33
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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The New Testament deals with any contradictions.
    WE Christians ARE the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16 ...
    On the contrary. Galatians 6:16; "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

    The word "AND" is a conjunction. It shows TWO or more DIFFERENT things. "Bread AND butter." "The engine AND the gearbox". Added to this, the whole context of Galatians CONTRASTS the Church (under grace) and Israel (under Law). The whole New Testament CONTRASTS those who are Israelites but reject their Messiah, and those (out) of Israel AND (out) of the nations who ACCEPT Messiah and are called the Church where, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, ... ." (Galatians 3:28a).

    Israel and the Church ARE NEVER JOINED except in the Kingdom and New Jerusalem. Even there they remain DIFFERENT and EXCLUSIVE. In the Kingdom Israel entertain and house the King - Jesus physically, but do not rule. The Church entertains and houses the King - Jesus spiritually AND RULES the earth. And the Church is the Walls of New Jerusalem, and Israel the Gates. They are never mingled. Romans 11 shows a Tree. A Tree in parable is a king and his kingdom - not the Church (Judg.9:8-13; Ezek.31; Dan.4). Even there they are different. "natural" branches and "wild" branches.

  4. #34
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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Walls, your separation of the true believers and the Israelites of God, is unscriptural. We Christians are the Overcomers of Satan for God; literally Israelites.

    Galatians 6:14-16 But far be it from me to boast, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ…….all that counts is new [personal] creation. All who take this principal as their guide: peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God. Revised English Bible

    The proper interpretation and translation of the last phrase in Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly, "The Israel of God" was understood as a name for the Church. The καὶ ("and") which precedes the phrase upon the Israel of God, was understood as an explicative καὶ. This understanding of the grammar is reflected in the Revised Standard Version's Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God, and in the New International Version's: even to the Israel of God. It is not necessary, to understand the καὶ as an explicative in order to get substantially the same sense. If it be regarded as an ordinary connective καὶ, the all who take this principal, correctly refers to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively; being the entire messianic community."
    So the rendering "and upon the Israel of God" (KJV and others) is acceptable enough, provided it is not misapplied. In any case, it is clear that in this verse Paul cannot be pronouncing a benediction upon persons who are not included in: All who keep the Christian rule….The entire argument of the epistle contradicts any idea that here in 6:16 he would give a blessing to those who are not Christians.
    The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists, those who believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’, insist on maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church".
    They refute the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture. This major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics, is a false teaching and made to support a rapture to heaven of the Church, that is nowhere prophesied to happen.

    The dispensationalist explanation of the meaning of "The Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 is contrary to Paul’s main point, in which it is said that: in Christ Jesus ... there is neither Jew nor Greek. This central idea of the epistle, is expressed in the third chapter: "you are all one in Christ Jesus ... if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring" Galatians 3:26-29
    The fascination with the secular state of Israel which is so characteristic of dispensationalists today has led many of them to think that the restoration of the Jews as "God's people" has already occurred, despite the fact that their rapture has not yet happened and the Jews continue to reject Christ. Dispensationalists insist that this unbelieving Israel according to the flesh must be blessed by everyone. But of course this premise is totally wrong, because there is no blessing for anyone who rejects Christ.
    The attempt to limit the meaning of "Israel of God" to the carnal sons of Judah betrays a fundamentally wrong approach to biblical interpretation, and to New Testament theology in particular. Many other writers, incl the ECF's more accurately express the meaning of Galatians 6:16. Even in these authors I find, however, an insufficient appreciation of Paul's teaching. Peace be ... upon the Israel of God, is a positive blessing and affirmation of true Christian believers as the spiritual Israel of God.

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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Walls, your separation of the true believers and the Israelites of God, is unscriptural. We Christians are the Overcomers of Satan for God; literally Israelites.

    Galatians 6:14-16 But far be it from me to boast, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ…….all that counts is new [personal] creation. All who take this principal as their guide: peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God. Revised English Bible

    The proper interpretation and translation of the last phrase in Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly, "The Israel of God" was understood as a name for the Church. The καὶ ("and") which precedes the phrase upon the Israel of God, was understood as an explicative καὶ. This understanding of the grammar is reflected in the Revised Standard Version's Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God, and in the New International Version's: even to the Israel of God. It is not necessary, to understand the καὶ as an explicative in order to get substantially the same sense. If it be regarded as an ordinary connective καὶ, the all who take this principal, correctly refers to the individual Christians, Jewish and Gentile, and Israel of God to the same Christians, regarded collectively; being the entire messianic community."
    So the rendering "and upon the Israel of God" (KJV and others) is acceptable enough, provided it is not misapplied. In any case, it is clear that in this verse Paul cannot be pronouncing a benediction upon persons who are not included in: All who keep the Christian rule….The entire argument of the epistle contradicts any idea that here in 6:16 he would give a blessing to those who are not Christians.
    The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists, those who believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’, insist on maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church".
    They refute the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture. This major tenet of dispensationalist hermeneutics, is a false teaching and made to support a rapture to heaven of the Church, that is nowhere prophesied to happen.

    The dispensationalist explanation of the meaning of "The Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 is contrary to Paul’s main point, in which it is said that: in Christ Jesus ... there is neither Jew nor Greek. This central idea of the epistle, is expressed in the third chapter: "you are all one in Christ Jesus ... if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring" Galatians 3:26-29
    The fascination with the secular state of Israel which is so characteristic of dispensationalists today has led many of them to think that the restoration of the Jews as "God's people" has already occurred, despite the fact that their rapture has not yet happened and the Jews continue to reject Christ. Dispensationalists insist that this unbelieving Israel according to the flesh must be blessed by everyone. But of course this premise is totally wrong, because there is no blessing for anyone who rejects Christ.
    The attempt to limit the meaning of "Israel of God" to the carnal sons of Judah betrays a fundamentally wrong approach to biblical interpretation, and to New Testament theology in particular. Many other writers, incl the ECF's more accurately express the meaning of Galatians 6:16. Even in these authors I find, however, an insufficient appreciation of Paul's teaching. Peace be ... upon the Israel of God, is a positive blessing and affirmation of true Christian believers as the spiritual Israel of God.
    I am aware of the modernist's attempt to overturn plain grammar. All the Holy Spirit, inspiring Paul, had to do, was to leave out the "and". It would then have read; "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, upon the Israel of God" - simple! But then, the Holy Spirit would have had to answer for a WHOLE BOOK, and a WHOLE NEW TESTAMENT, of CONTRASTING THE TWO - which He didn't. Galatians 6:16 reads instead, "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, AND upon the Israel of God."

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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I am aware of the modernist's attempt to overturn plain grammar. All the Holy Spirit, inspiring Paul, had to do, was to leave out the "and". It would then have read; "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, upon the Israel of God" - simple! But then, the Holy Spirit would have had to answer for a WHOLE BOOK, and a WHOLE NEW TESTAMENT, of CONTRASTING THE TWO - which He didn't. Galatians 6:16 reads instead, "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, AND upon the Israel of God."
    Also, I am aware of how anyone who believes in a rapture to heaven of the Church, is obliged to maintain a separation between the established Church and the State of Israel. That those two entities have no significance in God's eyes, is plain from scripture. The only people of God today are those who are born again Christians, who are now many millions of people from every tribe, [of Israel] race, nation and language.
    We see them in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared all the holy Land. Revelation 7:9, Isaiah 66:15-21

  7. #37
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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Also, I am aware of how anyone who believes in a rapture to heaven of the Church, is obliged to maintain a separation between the established Church and the State of Israel. That those two entities have no significance in God's eyes, is plain from scripture. The only people of God today are those who are born again Christians, who are now many millions of people from every tribe, [of Israel] race, nation and language.
    We see them in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared all the holy Land. Revelation 7:9, Isaiah 66:15-21
    To be born again one must BELIEVE in Jesus (Jn.1:12, 3:15-16; Gal.3:26). Israel refused Jesus, and still do. In light of such an IMMENSE difference, I suggest that we NEVER join Israel and the Church.

  8. #38
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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The New Testament deals with any contradictions.
    WE Christians ARE the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16 Grafted into Israel by faith and now the children of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26
    Your points:
    1/ Resurrection for everyone happens at the Great White Throne Judgement, only then is Eternal life conferred to those whose names are in the Book of life.
    2/ Cleansing is a requirement of God for anyone in His holy Land. He will give us a new heart and write His Laws in our minds. Hebrews 8:10-12
    3/ The sacrifices are for offerings and thanksgiving. Ezekiel 20:41, Zephaniah 3:10
    4/ We are not in the afterlife yet. Isaiah 62:1-5 says how it will be for us, as we live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Psalms 68:1-10
    1) I'm sorry, you are incorrect that resurrection for EVERYONE occurs at the GWT judgment, 1 Corinthians 15 clearly descries a resurrection at the second coming:
    We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
    Those believers who are resurrected will be immortal from the second coming, therefore those Jews who have long life in restored Israel as per Isaiah 65 are a separate bunch to resurrected believers, two different groups, two different destinies.

    2) You are incorrect here that cleansing is required for everyone, we are already cleansed forever through Jesus. We never again have to experience ritual cleansing through animal sacrifice, which is different to those in restored Israel who have to have ritual cleansing
    Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy
    18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
    Ezekiel 45:21 “‘In the first month on the fourteenth day you are to observe the Passover, a festival lasting seven days, during which you shall eat bread made without yeast. 22 On that day the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.
    Believers are made perfect forever and sacrifices for sin are no longer necessary, in stark contrast to restored Israel who need sin offerings of a sacrificed bull.

    3) As per point 2, the animal sacrifice of Ezekiel 45 is a "sin offering", not general offerings or thanksgiving

    4) Ezekiel 44:22 refers to marriage in restored Israel. This is in stark contrast to Matthew 22:30 which describes no marriage for the resurrected believers. There are two sets of rules for two completely different groups. Resurrected immortal believers who are already cleansed forever (Jew and Gentile) and restored mortal Israel which needs cleansing first.

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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To be born again one must BELIEVE in Jesus (Jn.1:12, 3:15-16; Gal.3:26). Israel refused Jesus, and still do. In light of such an IMMENSE difference, I suggest that we NEVER join Israel and the Church.
    This is right; The State of Israel and the Established Church will never join. I said they have no significance in God's eyes.
    I thought that as we have discussed issues before, you would know who the true righteous Israelites were. Literally the Overcomers for God. Actually every born again Christian believer. The rest of the world are the godless wicked.

    My point in this thread is to point out to my fellow Christians what the future holds for us, as told to us by God's prophets. And it isn't a rapture to heaven. Hebrews 12:8 says that if you desire to avoid trials and testing, then you are not a child of God.

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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    1) I'm sorry, you are incorrect that resurrection for EVERYONE occurs at the GWT judgment, 1 Corinthians 15 clearly descries a resurrection at the second coming:
    We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
    Those believers who are resurrected will be immortal from the second coming, therefore those Jews who have long life in restored Israel as per Isaiah 65 are a separate bunch to resurrected believers, two different groups, two different destinies.

    2) You are incorrect here that cleansing is required for everyone, we are already cleansed forever through Jesus. We never again have to experience ritual cleansing through animal sacrifice, which is different to those in restored Israel who have to have ritual cleansing
    Hebrews 10:14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy
    18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.
    Ezekiel 45:21 “‘In the first month on the fourteenth day you are to observe the Passover, a festival lasting seven days, during which you shall eat bread made without yeast. 22 On that day the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.
    Believers are made perfect forever and sacrifices for sin are no longer necessary, in stark contrast to restored Israel who need sin offerings of a sacrificed bull.

    3) As per point 2, the animal sacrifice of Ezekiel 45 is a "sin offering", not general offerings or thanksgiving

    4) Ezekiel 44:22 refers to marriage in restored Israel. This is in stark contrast to Matthew 22:30 which describes no marriage for the resurrected believers. There are two sets of rules for two completely different groups. Resurrected immortal believers who are already cleansed forever (Jew and Gentile) and restored mortal Israel which needs cleansing first.
    Your belief in Two Peoples Two Promises, is wrong and contradicts the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles.
    Matthew 22:30 refers to Eternity, where those worthy will become immortal and there will be no more procreation.

    1/ 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgement. Proved by how Death will be no more; Revelation 21:4 and how it is only when the Book of Life is opened, Rev 20:12, only then is immortality conferred.

    2/ But as you well know, many Christians fall into sin, so our hearts are of stone. [not truly aligned with God] He has promised to give us a heart of flesh and to write His Laws in our minds. Hebrews 8:10-12

    3/ Ezekiel 45:17 The ruler of the land, [not Jesus yet] is responsible for the whole offering, the grain offering and the drink offering to be done at the pilgrim feasts... REBible
    If your translation says sin offering, it is wrong as we do know that Jesus was the once and for all Atonement for sin.

    4/ Your are determined to have a restored ethnic Israel. This is not scriptural, as many prophesies say that of Israel only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27 +
    This remnant of Messianic Jews will join with all the other Christians in the Holy land. Jeremiah 12:14

  11. #41
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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This is right; The State of Israel and the Established Church will never join. I said they have no significance in God's eyes.
    I thought that as we have discussed issues before, you would know who the true righteous Israelites were. Literally the Overcomers for God. Actually every born again Christian believer. The rest of the world are the godless wicked.

    My point in this thread is to point out to my fellow Christians what the future holds for us, as told to us by God's prophets. And it isn't a rapture to heaven. Hebrews 12:8 says that if you desire to avoid trials and testing, then you are not a child of God.
    Our past discussions were no different. You present TWO Israels, one Christ rejecting and one Christ accepting. Scripture only recognizes ONE Israel and concludes Israelites under curse and chastisement. Once an Israelite believes he is, "NEITHER JEW nor Greek", but a "New Creature". His Israelihood is "old" and "passes away" (2nd Cor.5:17).

    The rapture is to the "air" and the "clouds" (1st Thess:4:17).

    Hebrews 12:8 does not say "that if you desire to avoid trials and testing, then you are not a child of God." It speaks of God's chastisement of a BELIEVER. If the BELIEVER is not exercised by this chastisement he is a "bastard". A "bastard" is the son of a father who has been disowned. He still remains a child of that father. That cannot be biologically altered. But he looses his inheritance. The context ends in verse 16 with Esau, son of Abraham, who lost his birthright and the promises attached to it.

  12. #42
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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Our past discussions were no different. You present TWO Israels, one Christ rejecting and one Christ accepting. Scripture only recognizes ONE Israel and concludes Israelites under curse and chastisement. Once an Israelite believes he is, "NEITHER JEW nor Greek", but a "New Creature". His Israelihood is "old" and "passes away" (2nd Cor.5:17). .
    Yes, the current Israeli people are divided into the vast majority; apostate, atheist, LGBT and Jesus rejecting people. Just like the rest of the world.
    Then a tiny minority of Messianic Jewish Christians, the remnant that Paul mentions in Romans 9:27.
    It is that minority, plus the millions of faithful Christians from every race, nation and language, that comprise the true Israel of God. They [we] will go to live in all of the holy Land soon after the Lord has cleansed it by His Day of wrath.

    Why do people see the Bible as not absolutely clear on the premise of the Lord's people being in the holy Land before the Return?
    Consider Daniel 7:23-25, paralleled by Revelation 13:7, where God's people are defeated by the armies of the Anti-Christ. Where does this happen? We are told in Revelation 11:1-8...in the Holy City, where the Lord was crucified. Zechariah 14:1-2 and Daniel 11:29-35, also describe this 3 1/2 year period of traumatic testing for the people of the Lord, WHO ARE IN THE HOLY LAND AT THAT TIME.
    Revelation 12:1-17 is very informative and gives more details of this 3 1/2, 42 month or 1260 day period: that chapter tell us that Satan will be thrown out of the spiritual realm and will come to earth, his angels with him. He pursues the 'woman', that we know must refer to all righteous Christian Israel. Israelites as per Galatians 3:26-29. They are then living in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, as many prophesies describe. The new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
    The 'many' who had agreed to a peace treaty with the Anti-Christ, the leader of the One World Government, Daniel 9:27, are those who remain in the Land, Revelation 12:17, Zechariah 14:2b. But those who refuse to accede to that treaty, Daniel 11:32, will leave the holy Land, will be taken to a place of safety, where they will be looked after for 1260 days, in a place prepared by God. Revelation 12:6

    These are Biblical truths, proving the many prophesies about the great Second Exodus of all the Lords people, from every tribe, nation, race and language, Revelation 5:9-10, that will happen before the Return of Jesus. Then, He will destroy those conquerors of the holy Land, along with the rest of those gathered by Satan, Revelation 16:14, and bring all His people back to Jerusalem, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

    That this teaching is not known to you and most other Christians, is how God wanted it to be. Matthew 11:25
    But now as we are so close to the time of fulfillment, God is 'opening the eyes and unstopping the ears' of a few who are willing to put aside false teachings and really understand His Plans for our future. Jeremiah 30:24

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    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post

    The rapture is to the "air" and the "clouds" (1st Thess:4:17).

    Hebrews 12:8 does not say "that if you desire to avoid trials and testing, then you are not a child of God." It speaks of God's chastisement of a BELIEVER. If the BELIEVER is not exercised by this chastisement he is a "bastard". A "bastard" is the son of a father who has been disowned. He still remains a child of that father. That cannot be biologically altered. But he looses his inheritance. The context ends in verse 16 with Esau, son of Abraham, who lost his birthright and the promises attached to it.
    The so called 'rapture' as described in 1 Thess 4:17, is merely a transportation of those who remain, to where Jesus is; in Jerusalem.

    Hebrews 12:7-8 makes what is intended for us to know, much clearer; We must endure discipline. God is testing you as sons. Can anyone be a son and not be disciplined by his father? But if you escape the discipline in which all sons share, then you must be a bast**d and not a true son.
    Your reply skirts the issue and avoids the truth of what the Bible says.

  14. #44

    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    We see them in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared all the holy Land. Revelation 7:9, Isaiah 66:15-21
    Are u saying, see them today?

  15. #45

    Re: Ezekiel's Unbuilt Temple

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    My point in this thread is to point out to my fellow Christians what the future holds for us, as told to us by God's prophets. And it isn't a rapture to heaven.
    What are u saying, it is to earth?
    I don t really like the word rapture, is there another word u can use perhaps?

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