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Thread: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

  1. #136
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Romans 7 says that believers are dead to the law. That's pretty much all of it.
    Yes, Paul was saying that he was dead to the law, but only in regard to justification. Later in the chapter he says that the law is good and spiritual.

  2. #137
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Yes, Paul was saying that he was dead to the law, but only in regard to justification. Later in the chapter he says that the law is good and spiritual.
    But he was dead to all of it. No more sacrifices of animals. Now we offer "spiritual sacrifices" i.e. our bodies as a living sacrifice. No more levitical priest. No more concern about food laws, but instead, we have to be careful of the spiritual foods we eat. No more eye for an eye as individuals. No more temple tax, or tithing to the Levites, etc. And on and on.

    The law was good. But we are now dead to it that we can be married to Christ. We don't have two grooms. A believer who is under the law, is in an adulteruous relationship with it.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  3. #138
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Yes, Paul was saying that he was dead to the law, but only in regard to justification. Later in the chapter he says that the law is good and spiritual.
    No one has ever been alive nor married to the law for justification for the law has never been able to justify. It would be redundant for Paul to say we are dead to the law in regards to justification so we could be married to Christ. That wouldn't make any sense at all because the law has never been able to justify.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  4. #139
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    No one has ever been alive nor married to the law for justification for the law has never been able to justify.
    This is true, but this has never stopped some people from making the attempt. The subject of Paul's discourse centers on objections to his gospel raised by those who believe that obedience to the law is the only way to seek favor and ultimately eternal life from God. Paul argues against this view, touching on various challenges to his gospel, which his Jewish readers may have heard. At the beginning of chapter seven, he pictures his Jewish readers, who are also followers of Jesus Christ, as being formerly married to the law as if they were the wife and the Law was their husband. Because the Law places them under the penalty of death, demonstrating them to be sinners, they are dead as far as the law is concerned. And since they are dead as far as the law is concerned, they are free to seek mercy and salvation by another means, i.e. seek eternal life through the cross of Christ instead.

    It would be redundant for Paul to say we are dead to the law in regards to justification so we could be married to Christ. That wouldn't make any sense at all because the law has never been able to justify.
    Yes, however, Paul is arguing against those who believe that obedience to the Law DOES justify. I agree with you that we are justified by faith, not by works of the law. And Paul spent four chapters of Romans making that point. In chapter six, then, he begins to answer objections to his gospel, i.e. we are justified by faith, through a series of rhetorical questions. The first half of chapter seven comes at the tail end of his response to the following question: "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?"

    The subtext of that question is the purpose of the Law. Paul has argued that God is granting justification to all those who believe as Abraham did, and that justification is by faith apart from works. His opponents would argue something like the following. "Okay Paul, granted that justification is by faith apart from works, you are telling Gentiles that they are not obligated to obey Moses, even though God's commandments define sin for us. How are the Gentiles going to avoid sin if they don't obey God's commandments? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under Grace?" Why advise Gentiles to abandon the commandments of God, if these commandments define his moral vision and keep someone from sin? In the latter half of chapter six and the first half of chapter 7, he answers that objection.

  5. #140
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    But he was dead to all of it. No more sacrifices of animals. Now we offer "spiritual sacrifices" i.e. our bodies as a living sacrifice. No more levitical priest. No more concern about food laws, but instead, we have to be careful of the spiritual foods we eat. No more eye for an eye as individuals. No more temple tax, or tithing to the Levites, etc. And on and on.

    The law was good. But we are now dead to it that we can be married to Christ. We don't have two grooms. A believer who is under the law, is in an adulteruous relationship with it.
    I think you misunderstand what Paul means by "dead to the law". I agree with your conclusion that being dead to the law means that we are free to be married to Christ. But I think we take Paul's argument too far if we conclude that Paul proscribed the keeping of the law. In the first half of Romans chapter seven he argues that we are dead to the law and free to marry the body of Christ in order to seek eternal life. And yet, in the latter half of the seventh chapter he commends the law for its ability to raise his awareness of sin. He says, for instance, without the law about coveting, he would not have known about coveting or known himself to be a slave of his members. He concludes, therefore, that the Law is good and beneficial in that respect. While the law can never bring justification to those who practice it; the law does bring self awareness to those who practice it with open eyes. The purpose of the law is to convict us of sin and the law serves that purpose well.

    In the third chapter of the book of Galatians, Paul makes a similar point. In that argument he points out that although there can never be a law that can impart life, there is a law that acts as a guardian and a tutor to lead us to Christ. And so here again, the law is seen to have benefits and a purpose apart from and outside of our seeking justification. We can never seek justification through the law, but we can find guidance and a tutor that leads us to Christ in that Law.

  6. #141
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I think you misunderstand what Paul means by "dead to the law". I agree with your conclusion that being dead to the law means that we are free to be married to Christ. But I think we take Paul's argument too far if we conclude that Paul proscribed the keeping of the law. In the first half of Romans chapter seven he argues that we are dead to the law and free to marry the body of Christ in order to seek eternal life. And yet, in the latter half of the seventh chapter he commends the law for its ability to raise his awareness of sin. He says, for instance, without the law about coveting, he would not have known about coveting or known himself to be a slave of his members. He concludes, therefore, that the Law is good and beneficial in that respect. While the law can never bring justification to those who practice it; the law does bring self awareness to those who practice it with open eyes. The purpose of the law is to convict us of sin and the law serves that purpose well.

    In the third chapter of the book of Galatians, Paul makes a similar point. In that argument he points out that although there can never be a law that can impart life, there is a law that acts as a guardian and a tutor to lead us to Christ. And so here again, the law is seen to have benefits and a purpose apart from and outside of our seeking justification. We can never seek justification through the law, but we can find guidance and a tutor that leads us to Christ in that Law.
    You confuse the law of GOd with the law of Moses. The 10 are eternal (with the Sabbath being about Jesus). The rest were meant to govern a nation and point to Jesus.

    We are completely, in every way, dead to the law. it was never able to justify so to say we are dead to justificiation by the law is not what Paul was getting at. We were never even alive to that.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    You confuse the law of GOd with the law of Moses.
    I don't think so. The Law of Moses IS the Law of God.

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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I don't think so. The Law of Moses IS the Law of God.
    This is misleading. The Law of Moses was given to Israel, not the nations. Or is Romans 1 nullified?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  9. #144
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I don't think so. The Law of Moses IS the Law of God.
    Hmmm... and we are justified through (by doing works of) the Law of Moses, or through faith in Jesus?

    This has always been that fine line concerning Messianic Jews. Some still preach a mixture of both works of the Law AND faith, for their justification. Some don't, and preach/teach/understand that ONLY faith in Jesus, justifies.

    Which group are true Messianic Jews?
    Slug1--out

    ~At the end of the day, the Cross we bear... is small!~

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~


    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



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