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Thread: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

  1. #16
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The number one thing that plagues the Church is not sin. That is obvious to all. The number one thing that destroys the Church and its testimony is DIVISION. As our Lord faced His crisis in John 17:20-23, He prayed to the Father for TWO groups of people. Those who surrounded Him at that moment - Jews, and "those who would believe in Jesus through their teaching" - the Gentiles. It reads;

    20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."


    If you count verses 11 as well then we have our Lord Jesus praying FIVE TIMES that ALL who believe in Him would be ONE. And that UNITY would be the thing that, (1) "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (TWICE), (2) "that the world may know that thou hast loved them", and (3) "that the world may know that thou hast loved me" (Jesus). The testimony of Jesus sent by God, and Jesus and the Church loved by God, is tied together with their unity.

    This UNITY is such an important thing that dire threats are attached to it. In 1st Corinthians 1 Paul's first accusation is that the Church was divided by doctrine and prominent leaders. Then, in Chapter 3 Paul gets much stronger about division. He says that it is (1) CARNAL (four times), (2) proof of IMMATURITY, and (3) the cause of Christians' inability to understand the deep things of the Word. And Paul, under inspiration, ends with the dire threat in verse 17 that, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

    Coming upon a bad car or airplane accident, and seeing limbs torn off bodies and lying apart from the dismembered torsos, is a horror for us. That is what we Christians do when we are divided. We tear Christ's Body apart and destroy not only the Body of Christ, but we destroy its testimony on earth before the heathen.

    The man-made term "Messianic Jew" is a blatant attempt to make a separate class of Christian. It is intrinsically DIVISIVE. It points to the flesh, for the claim of the Jew is that he was born of Isaac and NOT the Holy Spirit. It points to the Law of Moses because that is the CULTURE and RELIGION that makes the Jew SEPARATE from other men. But this Law has, IN THE CHURCH*, been ABOLISHED as a partition between Christians of different backgrounds (Eph.2:14-16). So Paul, in Philippians 3:2 says; "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision." He lumps "dogs", an unclean animal, and "evil workers" with those who would promote the Law of Moses of which circumcision is a bastion.

    * I do not say that the Law has been abolished. For the Jew who refuses Christ it is still perfectly valid with all its curses. But IN THE CHURCH, THE NEW MAN, THE NEW CREATURE, the Law has been abolished as it DIVIDES!
    I believe to u are thinking this through wrong. All the term literally means is a Jew who believes in Jesus. The division is coming from your disagreement with them, and your need to have them conform to your religious traditions, not their disagreement with you.

    I understand the term has been perverted by Gentiles wanting to ‘play Jew,’ but that’s a different topic

  2. #17
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I believe to u are thinking this through wrong. All the term literally means is a Jew who believes in Jesus. The division is coming from your disagreement with them, and your need to have them conform to your religious traditions, not their disagreement with you.

    ....
    I think that it is scripture does not agree with them. First, the term cannot be found in the whole New Testament. Secondly, the OPPOSITE is stated in scripture. They, and others, call themselves "Messianic JEWS", but scripture affirms;
    • "There is neither Jew nor Greek, ... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28)
    • "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, ..., but Christ is all, and in all" (Colossians 3:11)

    And the mischief does not stop there. They involve themselves in Jewish culture and customs to a greater or lesser degree - all based on 3,500 years of the Law of Moses. And it is this that makes a divide between them and the once-Gentile who believes. Let us examine the writings of the Holy Spirit to determine if it causes a problem;
    • In Acts Chapter 11 the BELIEVING Jews "contended" with Peter for going to a Gentile house in Chapter 10
    • In Acts Chapter 15 the BELIEVING Jews demanded and commanded circumcision
    • In Acts 21:20, "... many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law"
    • In Romans the reason for Paul's letter is shown in the closing Chapters. Christians of Jewish origin in Rome still kept diet and days and were divided from their ex-Gentile counterparts (Rom.14). But Paul calls them the "weak".
    • In Galatians the BELIEVING Jews would force ex-Gentile believers to be perfected by the Law of Moses
    • In Ephesians we have to be taught that the Law is abolished for the Church because it was a "wall of partition"
    • In Philippians 3:2 we are warned of the "dogs ... the concision"
    • In Colossians 2:16 we are warned; "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"

    And so on.

    Is it not abundantly clear that besides the flesh and the world, things Jewish present the greatest threat to the Christian walk? Well has the Lord HIMSELF said in Matthew 9:16-17;

    16 "No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
    17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."


    Anything Jewish will "rent" and "break" the Church. And is it not ominous that while Pilate would free Jesus, the greatest ENEMY of Jesus Christ was JEWRY AND THEIR LAW!

  3. #18
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think that it is scripture does not agree with them. First, the term cannot be found in the whole New Testament. Secondly, the OPPOSITE is stated in scripture. They, and others, call themselves "Messianic JEWS", but scripture affirms;
    • "There is neither Jew nor Greek, ... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28)
    • "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, ..., but Christ is all, and in all" (Colossians 3:11)

    And the mischief does not stop there. They involve themselves in Jewish culture and customs to a greater or lesser degree - all based on 3,500 years of the Law of Moses. And it is this that makes a divide between them and the once-Gentile who believes. Let us examine the writings of the Holy Spirit to determine if it causes a problem;
    • In Acts Chapter 11 the BELIEVING Jews "contended" with Peter for going to a Gentile house in Chapter 10
    • In Acts Chapter 15 the BELIEVING Jews demanded and commanded circumcision
    • In Acts 21:20, "... many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law"
    • In Romans the reason for Paul's letter is shown in the closing Chapters. Christians of Jewish origin in Rome still kept diet and days and were divided from their ex-Gentile counterparts (Rom.14). But Paul calls them the "weak".
    • In Galatians the BELIEVING Jews would force ex-Gentile believers to be perfected by the Law of Moses
    • In Ephesians we have to be taught that the Law is abolished for the Church because it was a "wall of partition"
    • In Philippians 3:2 we are warned of the "dogs ... the concision"
    • In Colossians 2:16 we are warned; "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"

    And so on.

    Is it not abundantly clear that besides the flesh and the world, things Jewish present the greatest threat to the Christian walk? Well has the Lord HIMSELF said in Matthew 9:16-17;

    16 "No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
    17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved."


    Anything Jewish will "rent" and "break" the Church. And is it not ominous that while Pilate would free Jesus, the greatest ENEMY of Jesus Christ was JEWRY AND THEIR LAW!
    This discussion is about a title not Judaism, not once did I say a thing about Judaism.

    And you are interpreting Scripture beyond its intent. Are you saying women in Christ are no longer women? Seriously?

    Do you realize ‘Messianic’ is derived from ‘Messiah?’

    You do realize ‘Christ’ means ‘Messiah,’ right?

    Nothing better describes a Jewish believer in Jesus than Messianic

    Unless you believe forcing Greek culture (Hellenism) on others is Biblical

  4. #19

    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    That's pretty much been my understanding.

    What I'll never understand is why a gentile would want to "become" or call themselves a Messianic Jew. Or why the Messianic Jews allow them to join them. It just baffles me.
    We all have, I think, a need for self-realization, because we all have worth as individuals and as ethnicities in the sight of God. After all, God created them all!

    So when the Jewish ethnicity has been pushed virtually out of sight for many, many years, there being no Jewish nation, it stands to reason that a turn in the tide among Jews will show a certain amount of elitism and pride. Messianic Jews rightly push themselves out into the light to demonstrate that believing Jews continue to exist!

    Unfortunately, we all have that "elitist bent" in us, and want to believe that we can become "the chosen race." And so we turn the Jewish race into a form of Christian elitism, and wish to somehow join them, whether by ritual or by Replacement Theology. We therefore discover the secret of becoming "the chosen race!"

    Well, it's a theory anyway!

  5. #20

    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I'm a Messianic Gentile.
    I love this!

  6. #21

    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [*]"There is neither Jew nor Greek, ... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28)
    Some seem to miss the point. In the above Walls is saying we are all ONE.
    This does not mean there is no man or woman, but that they are one in Christ.

    Why does anyone need to say he/she is an American Christian. It is ok, but is there anything of separateness in this statement? [though I have never heard this expression before,] but am trying to make a point, for those that can see.

  7. #22

    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I believe to u are thinking this through wrong.
    Which part of what Walls said do u think is wrong?

  8. #23

    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    And so we turn the Jewish race into a form of Christian elitism,...whether by ritual or by Replacement Theology.
    Who of us in here is a Replacement Theologian?
    I am not.

  9. #24

    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The number one thing that plagues the Church is not sin. That is obvious to all. The number one thing that destroys the Church and its testimony is DIVISION. As our Lord faced His crisis in John 17:20-23, He prayed to the Father for TWO groups of people. Those who surrounded Him at that moment - Jews, and "those who would believe in Jesus through their teaching" - the Gentiles. It reads;

    20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."


    If you count verses 11 as well then we have our Lord Jesus praying FIVE TIMES that ALL who believe in Him would be ONE. And that UNITY would be the thing that, (1) "that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (TWICE), (2) "that the world may know that thou hast loved them", and (3) "that the world may know that thou hast loved me" (Jesus). The testimony of Jesus sent by God, and Jesus and the Church loved by God, is tied together with their unity.

    This UNITY is such an important thing that dire threats are attached to it. In 1st Corinthians 1 Paul's first accusation is that the Church was divided by doctrine and prominent leaders. Then, in Chapter 3 Paul gets much stronger about division. He says that it is (1) CARNAL (four times), (2) proof of IMMATURITY, and (3) the cause of Christians' inability to understand the deep things of the Word. And Paul, under inspiration, ends with the dire threat in verse 17 that, "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."

    Coming upon a bad car or airplane accident, and seeing limbs torn off bodies and lying apart from the dismembered torsos, is a horror for us. That is what we Christians do when we are divided. We tear Christ's Body apart and destroy not only the Body of Christ, but we destroy its testimony on earth before the heathen.

    The man-made term "Messianic Jew" is a blatant attempt to make a separate class of Christian. It is intrinsically DIVISIVE. It points to the flesh, for the claim of the Jew is that he was born of Isaac and NOT the Holy Spirit. It points to the Law of Moses because that is the CULTURE and RELIGION that makes the Jew SEPARATE from other men. But this Law has, IN THE CHURCH*, been ABOLISHED as a partition between Christians of different backgrounds (Eph.2:14-16). So Paul, in Philippians 3:2 says; "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision." He lumps "dogs", an unclean animal, and "evil workers" with those who would promote the Law of Moses of which circumcision is a bastion.

    * I do not say that the Law has been abolished. For the Jew who refuses Christ it is still perfectly valid with all its curses. But IN THE CHURCH, THE NEW MAN, THE NEW CREATURE, the Law has been abolished as it DIVIDES!
    Again, brilliant work. I never knew it was so damaging. The sad thing is that folk will probably start calling u anti semetic, which I know is not what u are proposing.

  10. #25
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    This discussion is about a title not Judaism, not once did I say a thing about Judaism.

    And you are interpreting Scripture beyond its intent. Are you saying women in Christ are no longer women? Seriously?

    Do you realize ‘Messianic’ is derived from ‘Messiah?’

    You do realize ‘Christ’ means ‘Messiah,’ right?

    Nothing better describes a Jewish believer in Jesus than Messianic

    Unless you believe forcing Greek culture (Hellenism) on others is Biblical
    Two thing are prominent in your objections;
    1. You will not address my arguments from the Bible
    2. You will not provide scripture in defense of the TITLE "Messianic Jews"

    Is this not a Forum for doing this?

    The OP was about those who call themselves "Messianic JEWS" and whether it was a valid title. It is all about those who THEMSELVES call themselves JEWS - that CLASS of Christian who besides believing in Jesus, adhere to Moses (or parts of it). What defines a Jew? Let scripture answer in Romans 9:4; "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"

    But what says scripture further;
    • The "adoption" is a legal title. It infers a son who INHERITS. But what says Matthew 21:43 - The Kingdom of Heaven is ripped from them! They inherit their Land but under the rule of the Church.
    • The Covenants. These include that of Noah, the Promise to Abraham, the Passover, the Sabbath and the Davidic. These will all be fulfilled "according to GRACE" even for those who rejected Christ - a reflection of God's love and grace despite the perfidy of Israel
    • "the giving of the Law" - a Covenant to enable Israel to stay in the Land once they were in. This they broke so badly that they are cast out of their Land and it has to be replaced by a New Covenant of LAW
    • "the service of God" - this refers to God's House - the Temple. Where is it now? Where is the "service" to the Temple in Jerusalem when most of Israel since 700 BC have spent their years in dispersion!


    But what does scripture say of the Church, where their NEITHER Jew nor Greek?;
    • They too are Adopted (Rom.8:15; Gal.4:5; Eph.1:5). But unlike the Jews WE INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND THE WHOLE EARTH (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29)
    • The Covenants. We have that of Noah and that of Abraham who will inherit the whole earth (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29). The rest are fulfilled by Christ and IMPUTED TO US. We have to do nothing but BELIEVE in Jesus and His accomplishments
    • The Law. We are FREED from, and EXCLUDED from, this Covenant which brings only death to men (Rom.7:10)
    • The service of God. God's "spiritual House" is US - BODILY. We serve and worship in our spirits daily without restriction. We bring Christ as the Sacrifice to men (altar). We bring the "Bread of Life" to ourselves and men ("the showbread Table"). We preach Christ and bring "sevenfold light" to ourselves and men (the Lampstand). We pray, and our prayers in the name of Jesus ascend to God from the "altar of incense". We, unlike the Jew who would be slain, we may come BOLDLY to the Holy of Holies. We bring others to God by the gospel entrusted to us. We have full access and daily service to God in the highest form - in our spirit where He dwells (Jn.4:21.24)

    In light of the above, which do you choose - Jew, or that Body which recognizes NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK?

    Here's the test ...

    Why do we have a group within the Church who have a special title? Where then are the Messianic Eskimos, the Messianic Caucasians, the Messianic Rednecks, the Messianic sinners and the Messianic cripples? All these categories are found in the Church, but where are their TITLES in the Bible? Is it not you, and those who call themselves "Messianic Jews", who "go beyond scripture"? That ... was the point of the OP.

  11. #26
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    God hates mixture!!!!

    There is no Judaism that God recognizes or bless, the New Covenant, better promises, Christ, has come.

  12. #27
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by tea View Post
    Which part of what Walls said do u think is wrong?
    Read my post. .

  13. #28
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by undertheblood View Post
    God hates mixture!!!!

    There is no Judaism that God recognizes or bless, the New Covenant, better promises, Christ, has come.
    Once again, I did not say anything about Judaism, ONLY THE TITLE.

  14. #29
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    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Two thing are prominent in your objections;
    1. You will not address my arguments from the Bible
    2. You will not provide scripture in defense of the TITLE "Messianic Jews"

    Is this not a Forum for doing this?

    The OP was about those who call themselves "Messianic JEWS" and whether it was a valid title. It is all about those who THEMSELVES call themselves JEWS - that CLASS of Christian who besides believing in Jesus, adhere to Moses (or parts of it). What defines a Jew? Let scripture answer in Romans 9:4; "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"

    But what says scripture further;
    • The "adoption" is a legal title. It infers a son who INHERITS. But what says Matthew 21:43 - The Kingdom of Heaven is ripped from them! They inherit their Land but under the rule of the Church.
    • The Covenants. These include that of Noah, the Promise to Abraham, the Passover, the Sabbath and the Davidic. These will all be fulfilled "according to GRACE" even for those who rejected Christ - a reflection of God's love and grace despite the perfidy of Israel
    • "the giving of the Law" - a Covenant to enable Israel to stay in the Land once they were in. This they broke so badly that they are cast out of their Land and it has to be replaced by a New Covenant of LAW
    • "the service of God" - this refers to God's House - the Temple. Where is it now? Where is the "service" to the Temple in Jerusalem when most of Israel since 700 BC have spent their years in dispersion!


    But what does scripture say of the Church, where their NEITHER Jew nor Greek?;
    • They too are Adopted (Rom.8:15; Gal.4:5; Eph.1:5). But unlike the Jews WE INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND THE WHOLE EARTH (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29)
    • The Covenants. We have that of Noah and that of Abraham who will inherit the whole earth (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29). The rest are fulfilled by Christ and IMPUTED TO US. We have to do nothing but BELIEVE in Jesus and His accomplishments
    • The Law. We are FREED from, and EXCLUDED from, this Covenant which brings only death to men (Rom.7:10)
    • The service of God. God's "spiritual House" is US - BODILY. We serve and worship in our spirits daily without restriction. We bring Christ as the Sacrifice to men (altar). We bring the "Bread of Life" to ourselves and men ("the showbread Table"). We preach Christ and bring "sevenfold light" to ourselves and men (the Lampstand). We pray, and our prayers in the name of Jesus ascend to God from the "altar of incense". We, unlike the Jew who would be slain, we may come BOLDLY to the Holy of Holies. We bring others to God by the gospel entrusted to us. We have full access and daily service to God in the highest form - in our spirit where He dwells (Jn.4:21.24)

    In light of the above, which do you choose - Jew, or that Body which recognizes NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK?

    Here's the test ...

    Why do we have a group within the Church who have a special title? Where then are the Messianic Eskimos, the Messianic Caucasians, the Messianic Rednecks, the Messianic sinners and the Messianic cripples? All these categories are found in the Church, but where are their TITLES in the Bible? Is it not you, and those who call themselves "Messianic Jews", who "go beyond scripture"? That ... was the point of the OP.
    Why are you doing this? Not once did I argue for Judaism.

    I gave you Scripture. Paul as a Christian identified himself as a Jew.

    I also asked you if women in Christ are still women.

    No answer, just a diatribe about Judaism which I didn’t even address.

    Now had the OP asked about ‘Messianic Judaism’ my response would have been completely different.

  15. #30

    Re: Is the phrase 'Messianic Jew' a good one?

    Quote Originally Posted by undertheblood View Post
    God hates mixture!!!!
    I'm sure Rahab, and her family, are glad that isn't true.

    Joshua 6:25-26

    24 Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the Lord’s house. 25 But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho—and she lives among the Israelites to this day.

    Matthew 1:5-6

    5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
    Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
    Obed the father of Jesse,
    6 and Jesse the father of King David.
    9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. - Galatians 6:9-10 NASB

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