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Thread: Does the Son know all things? The Day of His coming?

  1. #16

    Re: Does the Son know all things? The Day of His coming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    What do you mean? We ARE told to dwell on the times and seasons... Oh Randy, open your eyes my friend,

    Matt 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Thus saith the Lord, "LEARN WHEN SUMMER IS NIGH." Summer is a season. When you see a fig tree with tender branches and it has new fresh leaves, then you know that the summer SEASON is at the door. In like manner, when you SEE these things coming to pass IN THAT SEASON, you know that the TIME OF HIS RETURN is near. So then:

    Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    HOWEVER, the Lord WARNS US,

    Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

    Thus saith the Lord, "You can know the season of My return, but you will not know the day or hour. So then WATCH, so that you will not be caught off guard and left behind. I love you so much. If I could tell you the day or hour, I would, but My Father has kept it from Me. So then be ready when I come. Behold, I have told you beforehand."
    No, that's not what Jesus was saying, that his disciples were supposed to look for the *season of his Coming!* Let me explain what I was actually trying to say. I was saying that Jesus discouraged his disciples from trying to speculate about *future* times and seasons. They were obviously to focus on their own particular season--the present.

    We are not to seek mediums or crystal ball gazers to try to determine our future. We are not to spend our time figuring out what will happen 30 years from now, unless of course that event 30 years from now affects us today!

    Jesus was highly focused on an event that was actually 40 years away--the fall of Jerusalem by a Roman invasion. He did believe that this event actually had relevance for his own day. But he certainly was not trying to focus their attention way off into the distant future, in order to speculate about his 2nd Coming! That is why he said times and seasons was not to be their obsession. Rather, they should focus on the current ministry.

    What was the thing the disciples were exhorted to watch for? Was it the 2nd Coming? No. Was it some event foretold by the Prophets way off in the future? No. Was it the future restoration of Israel? No. Rather, Jesus wanted his disciples to remain focused on their future hope, but to stay actively engaged in their current ministry. There was no need to speculate on things that would be beyond their own time and involvement.

    No, Jesus exhorted his disciples to watch out for things in their own immediate generation--things like the coming Roman judgment, the rise of false teachers who would try to fight the Romans, false prophets like Jews who claimed to possess the true Messiah--not Jesus. They were to remain focused on the need to be Christian in their own time and place, and not speculate on future prophetic events, or to try to determine when they would take place.

    After all, Jesus' disciples asked him when the fall of the temple would take place, and when the 2nd Coming would take place.They wanted to know *when* prophesied events would take place. Jesus said it was none of their business--only the Father's business. It was their business to deal with the events in their own time and place.

    This is why Jesus' 2nd Coming is not given a known date to men. They would soon focus strictly on that, instead of ministering to their own generation. This is why they are not supposed to worry about when future prophesied events will take place. Otherwise, they would be fashioning prophetic calendars and time-lines instead of trying to minister the gospel in their current world.

  2. #17
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    Re: Does the Son know all things? The Day of His coming?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, that's not what Jesus was saying, that his disciples were supposed to look for the *season of his Coming!* Let me explain what I was actually trying to say. I was saying that Jesus discouraged his disciples from trying to speculate about *future* times and seasons. They were obviously to focus on their own particular season--the present.

    We are not to seek mediums or crystal ball gazers to try to determine our future. We are not to spend our time figuring out what will happen 30 years from now, unless of course that event 30 years from now affects us today!

    Jesus was highly focused on an event that was actually 40 years away--the fall of Jerusalem by a Roman invasion. He did believe that this event actually had relevance for his own day. But he certainly was not trying to focus their attention way off into the distant future, in order to speculate about his 2nd Coming! That is why he said times and seasons was not to be their obsession. Rather, they should focus on the current ministry.

    What was the thing the disciples were exhorted to watch for? Was it the 2nd Coming? No. Was it some event foretold by the Prophets way off in the future? No. Was it the future restoration of Israel? No. Rather, Jesus wanted his disciples to remain focused on their future hope, but to stay actively engaged in their current ministry. There was no need to speculate on things that would be beyond their own time and involvement.

    No, Jesus exhorted his disciples to watch out for things in their own immediate generation--things like the coming Roman judgment, the rise of false teachers who would try to fight the Romans, false prophets like Jews who claimed to possess the true Messiah--not Jesus. They were to remain focused on the need to be Christian in their own time and place, and not speculate on future prophetic events, or to try to determine when they would take place.

    After all, Jesus' disciples asked him when the fall of the temple would take place, and when the 2nd Coming would take place.They wanted to know *when* prophesied events would take place. Jesus said it was none of their business--only the Father's business. It was their business to deal with the events in their own time and place.

    This is why Jesus' 2nd Coming is not given a known date to men. They would soon focus strictly on that, instead of ministering to their own generation. This is why they are not supposed to worry about when future prophesied events will take place. Otherwise, they would be fashioning prophetic calendars and time-lines instead of trying to minister the gospel in their current world.
    What I hear you saying is that we should be looking for Jesus in the signs of our own time... I agree to a point. We need to walk our own lives ALWAYS, as though He is coming at any second. However, if we are not careful, and we take every event in front of us as THE events of Matt 24, we unwittingly begin to teach the baby Christians "Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;" and then they will begin to "And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;"...

    With the understanding that I teach, I am instilling a consistent LOOKING for a FUTURE Coming, knowing that the event could unfold in YOUR generation. SO then in excitement, WATCH, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." At the point where Matt 24 LINES UP EXACTLY (which you must admit has not happened fully in 70 AD) with current events in the Believers life, THEY WILL SEE Matt 24:29-31 happen AS WELL. IN ADDITION TO all those other things listed in Matt 24:3-51. (NOT VERSE 1 & 2... That was a separate prophecy, which lead into the discussion of the timing of His return... Notice that it is the timing of His return, not the timing of the destruction of Jerusalem. That is a small speck of His discussion, and if you look closely, He NEVER MENTIONS that event, or the destruction of the temple in verses 3-51.)

    At all times (for the last 2000 years) all Believers must watch for a Specific set of events that occur during only ONE GENERATION. So then, we are watching as each generation passes for the specific events, to know if that is our generation. Once we start to see them come to pass (as many generation have), they should then wait for Matt 24:29-31. If that does not happen, then all the events they saw ARE NOT fulfilling the promises of Christ.

    So then, in the generation of 70 AD, THAT WAS NOT the fulfillment of Matt 24:3-51.

  3. #18

    Re: Does the Son know all things? The Day of His coming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    What I hear you saying is that we should be looking for Jesus in the signs of our own time... I agree to a point. We need to walk our own lives ALWAYS, as though He is coming at any second. However, if we are not careful, and we take every event in front of us as THE events of Matt 24, we unwittingly begin to teach the baby Christians "Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;" and then they will begin to "And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;"...
    Right, I'm certainly not saying that the 2nd Coming will not take place. I'm only saying that we can over-emphasize distant prophetic events to the exclusion of our current ministries. I do think Jesus sort of turned doctrine of his 2nd Coming into a lesson for his disciples in their own day. They were to view his Coming as imminent not in the sense that the 2nd Coming could take place at any minute. Rather, he was saying that Jesus could bring judgment in any generation. It would be pure folly to wait until some future time to prepare for the 2nd Coming! Preparation is for today, and must be done not just out of concern for when the 2nd Coming will take place, but even more, out of concern over what judgment God could bring against us today!

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith
    With the understanding that I teach, I am instilling a consistent LOOKING for a FUTURE Coming, knowing that the event could unfold in YOUR generation. SO then in excitement, WATCH, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." At the point where Matt 24 LINES UP EXACTLY (which you must admit has not happened fully in 70 AD) with current events in the Believers life, THEY WILL SEE Matt 24:29-31 happen AS WELL. IN ADDITION TO all those other things listed in Matt 24:3-51. (NOT VERSE 1 & 2... That was a separate prophecy, which lead into the discussion of the timing of His return... Notice that it is the timing of His return, not the timing of the destruction of Jerusalem. That is a small speck of His discussion, and if you look closely, He NEVER MENTIONS that event, or the destruction of the temple in verses 3-51.)
    I see it quite differently. I do see Jesus' disciples as looking for the distant event--the 2nd Coming of Christ. But I also see the *way they look for this event* as different than pure expectation that the distant event can happen at any time, in any generation. I really don't believe that. I don't believe Jesus' 2nd Coming can take place in any generation, or at any time. I believe the Scriptures teach that the Father has already *set* a day for this event to take place. Thus, it *cannot* take place on any day, or in any generation. Only the Father knows what day this will take place. We are not to know that day, likely because we are to focus on *today.*

    I do think that a great deal of the Olivet Discourse has to do with the 70 AD event--the destruction of the temple. If you look at Luke's version in ch. 21 you will see this clearly. There you have armies surrounding Jerusalem, and carrying Jews off captive afterwards. Actually Jews are taken into exile and remain in wandering "until the times of the Gentiles are completed," which is at the 2nd Coming of Jesus. This has to do with the *entire NT era,* and not primarily with the 2nd Coming event itself.

    It's true that the 2nd Coming of Jesus must not be misidentified with the events of 70 AD. However, I do believe that Jesus sort of blended together both events in terms of the need to be awake, or aware--to be ready for possible judgment on any day or in any generation. In other words, it was not Jesus' 2nd Coming they were to be imminently prepared for. Rather, they were to be prepared for the kind of Jesus that the 2nd Coming anticipates. In other words, if Jesus presented his 2nd Coming as a coming in judgment, then his disciples were to be aware that Jesus already lives to bring judgment in all generations! This is a little different than the way you often hear it, so I don't expect you to understand my position easily. But thanks for trying!

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith
    At all times (for the last 2000 years) all Believers must watch for a Specific set of events that occur during only ONE GENERATION. So then, we are watching as each generation passes for the specific events, to know if that is our generation. Once we start to see them come to pass (as many generation have), they should then wait for Matt 24:29-31. If that does not happen, then all the events they saw ARE NOT fulfilling the promises of Christ.

    So then, in the generation of 70 AD, THAT WAS NOT the fulfillment of Matt 24:3-51.
    This is where we have a major difference. I don't think Jesus was speaking of the convergence of signs in a *future generation.* I believe he was answering his disciples' question, "When will the fall of the temple take place?" Jesus was answering by saying, "All these things, ie the fall of the temple and its accompanying signs, will take place in your own time and generation." And it is so for the simple reason that the sins of their own generation, including the rejection of Jesus, had to have punishment visited on them, ie those who were guilty of this sin.

  4. #19
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    Re: Does the Son know all things? The Day of His coming?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Right, I'm certainly not saying that the 2nd Coming will not take place. I'm only saying that we can over-emphasize distant prophetic events to the exclusion of our current ministries. I do think Jesus sort of turned doctrine of his 2nd Coming into a lesson for his disciples in their own day. They were to view his Coming as imminent not in the sense that the 2nd Coming could take place at any minute. Rather, he was saying that Jesus could bring judgment in any generation. It would be pure folly to wait until some future time to prepare for the 2nd Coming! Preparation is for today, and must be done not just out of concern for when the 2nd Coming will take place, but even more, out of concern over what judgment God could bring against us today!



    I see it quite differently. I do see Jesus' disciples as looking for the distant event--the 2nd Coming of Christ. But I also see the *way they look for this event* as different than pure expectation that the distant event can happen at any time, in any generation. I really don't believe that. I don't believe Jesus' 2nd Coming can take place in any generation, or at any time. I believe the Scriptures teach that the Father has already *set* a day for this event to take place. Thus, it *cannot* take place on any day, or in any generation. Only the Father knows what day this will take place. We are not to know that day, likely because we are to focus on *today.*

    I do think that a great deal of the Olivet Discourse has to do with the 70 AD event--the destruction of the temple. If you look at Luke's version in ch. 21 you will see this clearly. There you have armies surrounding Jerusalem, and carrying Jews off captive afterwards. Actually Jews are taken into exile and remain in wandering "until the times of the Gentiles are completed," which is at the 2nd Coming of Jesus. This has to do with the *entire NT era,* and not primarily with the 2nd Coming event itself.

    It's true that the 2nd Coming of Jesus must not be misidentified with the events of 70 AD. However, I do believe that Jesus sort of blended together both events in terms of the need to be awake, or aware--to be ready for possible judgment on any day or in any generation. In other words, it was not Jesus' 2nd Coming they were to be imminently prepared for. Rather, they were to be prepared for the kind of Jesus that the 2nd Coming anticipates. In other words, if Jesus presented his 2nd Coming as a coming in judgment, then his disciples were to be aware that Jesus already lives to bring judgment in all generations! This is a little different than the way you often hear it, so I don't expect you to understand my position easily. But thanks for trying!



    This is where we have a major difference. I don't think Jesus was speaking of the convergence of signs in a *future generation.* I believe he was answering his disciples' question, "When will the fall of the temple take place?" Jesus was answering by saying, "All these things, ie the fall of the temple and its accompanying signs, will take place in your own time and generation." And it is so for the simple reason that the sins of their own generation, including the rejection of Jesus, had to have punishment visited on them, ie those who were guilty of this sin.
    So what I hear you saying is that you accept that Jesus is indeed coming back at a specific time assigned by the Father, but unknown to us. We can not know the time, therefor we should expect his return imminently from generation to generation. However you see the Watching as for Judgement upon the age that any person is looking for the Coming. So then a judgement is assigned to every Generation because His coming includes Judgment? But yet He does not come in every generation?

    Ultimately it all boils down to this:

    Is Christ talking to the Jews or the Believers in the Olivet Discourse?

    The reason this is so important, is that if Christ is talking ONLY to Believers, the Temple has no bearing on the rest of the information that Jesus gives. However, If Jesus is including the Jews in this discourse, then the Temple has much to do with the events that unfold.

    Your entire idea is centered on the temple's destruction. However, I want to show that the center point of the text is on the coming of Christ.

    In Matt 24:3-51, Jesus did not answer the question "when shall these things be" if that question is directly related to "the destruction of the temple" (which I believe it was not... remember that Jesus and the disciples walked for 5 to 8 minutes from the temple to the mountain from the point that Jesus told them about the temple's destruction... Many things could have been discussed.)

    My Center: and what shall be the sign of thy coming

    Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Matthew 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;


    Your Center: Tell us, when shall these things be? (assumed about the temple)

    Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    One can easily see which question Jesus is answering... And its not the one that you are centering all of your beliefs on...

    Thus, we are not WATCHING for Judgement on STUFFS of this earth. We are watching for the SIGN OF HIS COMING. Judgement will come when He arrives. not until then.

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