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Thread: Believing Jews and Israel

  1. #31
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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip dT View Post
    Jesus already sits on the throne of David. Luke 1:69 testifies of the horn of salvation that has already been raised up in the house of David. Jesus is already addressed as the Son of David (Mt 1:1; 20:30; Lk 18:38) and the Root of David (Rev 5:5). Acts 15:16-17 also testifies of the tabernacle of David that has already been rebuilt in that Gentiles already join in God's kingdom.

    Heb 1:13 also testifies of Jesus' position where his enemies are already been made a footstool to Jesus' feet. So Heb 10:13. The clearest indicator of this reality is probably Eph 1:22-23 "And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, (23) which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all."

    There is a stage where Christ's reign will be public for all nations to see (e.g. 1 Cor 15:25-26), but at heart, Jesus' reign is not this-worldly or political from this earth, and will never be. In fact, Jesus declared "My kingdom is not of this world" (Jn 18:36). The notion that Jesus would reign from earthly Jerusalem is to bring Jesus to a lesser position that He is now. It is actually to bring Him down and to dethrone Him from His already cosmic reign (Eph 1:22-23; Col 1:17-20). Spirit and the new dispensation in the Spirit has already superseded flesh, which entails an existence in this current creation. To revert back to an earthly, political reign is to revert back to flesh - to that which is this-worldly. God's children are therefore only defined by faith (Gal 3:7, 9) and Spirit (Rom 8:16) in the new creation, and not by fleshly things such as ethnicity, physical circumcision, the physical land of Israel, physical Jerusalem or the physical temple. In fact, Paul states that "we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (2 Cor 6:16). This promise of Lev 26 has already come true in believers. To claim that Christ would reclaim a position in a former reality of which ancient Israel were part of, is to deny the new creation that already replaced and superseded the old creation.
    Friend, God Bless you! But yet, I have shown that indeed Christ is NOT on the Throne of David Yet. When Christ ascended into Heaven, He sat IN THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER. And even now He sits on the RIGHT HAND OF POWER. He does not Have HIS THRONE YET, because the Father has not yet made the earth HIS footstool! . Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. He will be given the Earth at the Marriage of the Lamb, After the wrath of God has been poured out. JESUS is still the Lamb. As one who sits on the THRONE OF DAVID, HE MUST BE A LION... He is the LAMB STILL. We CHRISTIANS are not saved by a LION! We are saved by a LAMB! JUDAH (over whom the throne of David is set), is saved by a LION. See this:

    Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    But yet right after this proclamation, John see the Lion walk out AS A SLAUGHTERED LAMB!

    Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Brother, Jesus will only be crowned King when He returns to destroy all those who come against Him and sets up His kingdom on the earth for forever, starting with a 1000 year reign OVER ISRAEL AND JUDAH.

    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

    LION ^

    But before that we see this:

    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    LAMB ^

  2. #32

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to answer, Randy.

    I agree from 1-4, but on 5, I see this:

    Romans 11 speaks of the root of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, (all before Israel). And it speaks of us being grafted into Abraham. What do you understand about this, and how can you then discount the seed of Abraham?
    This is a very big subject that has been dealt with repeatedly...and with good reason. The subject is Replacement Theology. Did universal Christianity become the "new Israel" or not? Many Christians throughout history do believe that the universal Church is indeed the "new Israel," because they long ago gave up hope that Israel would ever be recovered as a nation. To find a way to "fulfil" God's prophecies concerning Israel, they simply removed the literalness of those promises for Israel and instead apply them to the Church, for whom they do seem to have meaning.

    But many of us still recognize that God extends His grace towards modern Israel, just as He has done to all nations in history. Israel may yet become a Christian nation! If indeed this does happen, it will mean that Israel is Israel, and Christian nations are Christian nations. Israel is *not* the universal Church.

    Part of the problem I specifically have, in discussing this, is that many Christians tend to *individualize* the gospel, and reduce Christianity to scattered individuals, excluding the identification of "Christian nations."

    My problem with that is again, God promised certain things in prophecy concerning *nations.* That means that even if not every single individual in a nation becomes a Christian you can still fulfil prophecy by having a "Christian nation." And if we've had Christian nations in history, and we have, then we can also have a Christian Israel in the future.

    Needless to say, I reject Replacement Theology.

  3. #33

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Yes.

    Salvation is always by believing on Jesus Christ as Lord. Amen! What I am trying to point out here is that even Israel as a Nation will cry out to OUR Lord, Jesus, but our understanding is skewed, because we are not Jews, and do not understand God the Father as they do. They just don't understand He is their Father... We DO! SO then, when they finally accept Him as father, by looking upon Him who their pierced, Israel will come back to the Lord.
    Dear 'Soldier of Faith', perhaps you would have been tired when you made this reply back to me. Please allow me to get your statement straight, as iron sharpens iron. First of all your beginning one is of truth, where according to Apostle Paul, our faith declares that JESUS CHRIST is 'LORD'. But our extended spiritual knowledge according to the New Covenant, also confess in faith like disciple Thomas once, that He is 'our LORD and our God'.

    Second, how can Israel as a nation will cry out to our LORD JESUS, when their hearts are made harden in regards the Gospel, and are enemies of GOD? The only GOD they know and understand according to the Old Testament, is the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and moreover GOD of Moses, they will still cry out to till today. In order for their GOD to speed the promised MESSIAH to come, and liberate them from their human adversaries, especially the 'uncircumcised'. And that their Temple will be rebuilt again, and their 'ordinance' specific to the Law of Moses to resume once again, from the temple to the people. This is strictly to do with the 'ordinance' according to the Law of Moses and circumcision accordingly, and has got nothing to do with islam. A 'copycat' religion with it's dogma and circumcision, and others, randomly taken from Judaism and Christianity doctrine and ordinance, as their prophet were a disciple of these two 'sect', and for some time, before he rebelled and became constant rival, to eliminate people of the both 'sect'. he was a messed up prophet receiving at one time preceding from GOD's angel, and one of them is Gabriel, and too receiving preceding from satan's demon.

    Third, since we have the Old and New Covenant we understand their GOD and FATHER better than the Jews, by the help of their 'remnant chosen by grace', especially the Apostles and the HOLY SPIRIT. And with all due respect and gratitude to them indefinitely, for because of them the Gentiles like me received their promised Salvation instead.

    Forth, 'all Israel will be saved', if i were to say, exclaims Apostle Paul from his 'birth pangs' towards the salvation of his 'kinsmen', and upon receiving a 'mystery' in revelation, from Romans 11;25 onward to verse 32. And praising GOD for the 'comfort' and 'mystery' received and in joy, from verse 33 to 36. Amen.

  4. #34
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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is a very big subject that has been dealt with repeatedly...and with good reason. The subject is Replacement Theology. Did universal Christianity become the "new Israel" or not? Many Christians throughout history do believe that the universal Church is indeed the "new Israel," because they long ago gave up hope that Israel would ever be recovered as a nation. To find a way to "fulfil" God's prophecies concerning Israel, they simply removed the literalness of those promises for Israel and instead apply them to the Church, for whom they do seem to have meaning.

    But many of us still recognize that God extends His grace towards modern Israel, just as He has done to all nations in history. Israel may yet become a Christian nation! If indeed this does happen, it will mean that Israel is Israel, and Christian nations are Christian nations. Israel is *not* the universal Church.

    Part of the problem I specifically have, in discussing this, is that many Christians tend to *individualize* the gospel, and reduce Christianity to scattered individuals, excluding the identification of "Christian nations."

    My problem with that is again, God promised certain things in prophecy concerning *nations.* That means that even if not every single individual in a nation becomes a Christian you can still fulfil prophecy by having a "Christian nation." And if we've had Christian nations in history, and we have, then we can also have a Christian Israel in the future.

    Needless to say, I reject Replacement Theology.
    Before the Lord Jesus was born onto this Earth, Faith was used to judge the setting apart of those who were of God, and not of God. Yet, they were not the church, the were Israel.

    When Christ came, Grace was added, but yet through that same Faith. That Grace came through the traditions of Israel; look at the words used by Christ and by the Early church, "Sacrifice", "Lamb", "Melchisedec", "Priest", "Alter", "Messiah", ect...

    But then the Jewish Believer was introduced to the Gentile believer by Paul. However the ideologies of a Jewish Messiah were NOT removed from that Gentile believer. And instead the Gentile believer was grafted into the Hebrew family as one of them; a Jewish Believer. But Satan used time and patience to remove those Jews from even Christian History.

    Now we travel through time to now. Now, Gentiles Christians have their own faith. One that completely avoids speaking about the Hebrews, and is careful not to step over that line. Yet, we still use Hebrew words like "LAMB OF GOD", and "CHRIST" which is "MESSIAH", and "GENTILE", and all the Temple terms and other Hebrew terms. We do not think twice about using Hebrew words like "AMEN" and "Anathema Maranatha". Yet, how dare we accept that the Jews will be a great nation like they were promised... We are GENTILE CHRISTIANS! Jesus died for us, and they were rejected! What a sad state we are in... Lord forgive us!

    We have become the Sadducee and Pharisee... Lord forgive us...

  5. #35
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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by fred06 View Post
    Dear 'Soldier of Faith', perhaps you would have been tired when you made this reply back to me. Please allow me to get your statement straight, as iron sharpens iron. First of all your beginning one is of truth, where according to Apostle Paul, our faith declares that JESUS CHRIST is 'LORD'. But our extended spiritual knowledge according to the New Covenant, also confess in faith like disciple Thomas once, that He is 'our LORD and our God'.
    I have been very tired... But a good tired, as though I worked hard for my increase in the fields. Yes, Jesus is God, and LORD, and the Son of the Father. Jesus came in the Flesh, and was the "I am".

    Quote Originally Posted by fred06 View Post
    Second, how can Israel as a nation will cry out to our LORD JESUS, when their hearts are made harden in regards the Gospel, and are enemies of GOD? The only GOD they know and understand according to the Old Testament, is the GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and moreover GOD of Moses, they will still cry out to till today. In order for their GOD to speed the promised MESSIAH to come, and liberate them from their human adversaries, especially the 'uncircumcised'. And that their Temple will be rebuilt again, and their 'ordinance' specific to the Law of Moses to resume once again, from the temple to the people. This is strictly to do with the 'ordinance' according to the Law of Moses and circumcision accordingly, and has got nothing to do with islam. A 'copycat' religion with it's dogma and circumcision, and others, randomly taken from Judaism and Christianity doctrine and ordinance, as their prophet were a disciple of these two 'sect', and for some time, before he rebelled and became constant rival, to eliminate people of the both 'sect'. he was a messed up prophet receiving at one time preceding from GOD's angel, and one of them is Gabriel, and too receiving preceding from satan's demon.
    Islam is indeed a false religion, in that they serve a god who does not have a son. So then, the Jews Serve our God, but rejected the Son of God. So then God will not hear them. That Christ is the SON is the most important quality of Jesus. For by just accepting Him as "LORD" or "God", and not "SON", we have a big problem...

    Islam accepts Jesus the son of Mary (not God) as a great prophet. They even accept that God took him up alive into heaven! And will admit to you that Mohamed is in heaven dead.

    Jews killed their Messiah, and thus the Gentile was allowed to be grafted into Salvation. But Israel is promised to be saved (as a small remnant) in the end. But not until the Millennial reign of Christ. So then, Israel accepts Jesus as a prophet, but not the Son of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by fred06 View Post
    Third, since we have the Old and New Covenant we understand their GOD and FATHER better than the Jews, by the help of their 'remnant chosen by grace', especially the Apostles and the HOLY SPIRIT. And with all due respect and gratitude to them indefinitely, for because of them the Gentiles like me received their promised Salvation instead.

    Forth, 'all Israel will be saved', if i were to say, exclaims Apostle Paul from his 'birth pangs' towards the salvation of his 'kinsmen', and upon receiving a 'mystery' in revelation, from Romans 11;25 onward to verse 32. And praising GOD for the 'comfort' and 'mystery' received and in joy, from verse 33 to 36. Amen.
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    So then, Israel is ONLY BLIND, until the Church has been made into the Wife of the Lamb. Once that is complete, (after the Marriage) no other being of any nationality or type can be added to the Bride. However, Israel will continue on into eternity, growing and growing forever! Become so big, they will be as the sands of the seas.

  6. #36
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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Jesus is already the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (Phlp 2:9-11) and his enemies is already under his feet (Eph 1:22-23).
    Joh 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip dT View Post
    Jesus is already the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (Phlp 2:9-11) and his enemies is already under his feet (Eph 1:22-23).
    Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    This will happen when the Lord returns to Israel:

    Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    Now, as the world around us shows clearly we have to deal with someone else:

    2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this aion hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    That aion ends when the Lord returns, until than the Lord sits in the Father's right hand. (Col. 3:1)

    Aristarkos

  8. #38
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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

    This will happen when the Lord returns to Israel:

    Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    Now, as the world around us shows clearly we have to deal with someone else:

    2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this aion hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    That aion ends when the Lord returns, until than the Lord sits in the Father's right hand. (Col. 3:1)

    Aristarkos
    There is always an "already" and a "not yet" in eschatology. Jesus is already in a position on the throne over his enemies but at Jesus' second coming, that will be displayed publicly and everyone will see it. Heb 2:8 points to the fact that we cannot see that directly now, for we cannot see into the spiritual realm in the same way we will be able to see when we are transformed. There is no indication that Christ in the future will revert back to a lesser, earthly, political kingdom on this earth. There will come a stage though when the enemy will finally be destroyed.
    Joh 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip dT View Post
    There is always an "already" and a "not yet" in eschatology. Jesus is already in a position on the throne over his enemies but at Jesus' second coming, that will be displayed publicly and everyone will see it. Heb 2:8 points to the fact that we cannot see that directly now, for we cannot see into the spiritual realm in the same way we will be able to see when we are transformed. There is no indication that Christ in the future will revert back to a lesser, earthly, political kingdom on this earth. There will come a stage though when the enemy will finally be destroyed.
    Why do you think it's only about the spiritual realm? We also don't see it yet here on earth, it's a mess and not getting better over time.

    The Kingdom of Heaven will be established when the Lord returns, this will be the land promised to Abraham of which he never owned a footstep. The fact that there is a heavenly sphere doesn't mean there isn't earthly sphere. Both exist now and both will exist in the next aion. In the current dispensation of grace, rapprochement to God is separate from Israel, but in the next aion it will be through Israel as Peter tells us:

    1 Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    So says the O.T.:

    Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Even though Israel so far has failed to take its place, it will do so in the future when the Lord has returned:

    Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

    The restoration of Israel is clear through out Scripture, for example read Zecheriah 8, I'll quote a few verses:

    Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

    Zec 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.


    Aristarkos

  10. #40

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Before the Lord Jesus was born onto this Earth, Faith was used to judge the setting apart of those who were of God, and not of God. Yet, they were not the church, the were Israel.

    When Christ came, Grace was added, but yet through that same Faith. That Grace came through the traditions of Israel; look at the words used by Christ and by the Early church, "Sacrifice", "Lamb", "Melchisedec", "Priest", "Alter", "Messiah", ect...

    But then the Jewish Believer was introduced to the Gentile believer by Paul. However the ideologies of a Jewish Messiah were NOT removed from that Gentile believer. And instead the Gentile believer was grafted into the Hebrew family as one of them; a Jewish Believer. But Satan used time and patience to remove those Jews from even Christian History.
    I agree that in the Early Church Gentile Christians were added to an essentially Jewish Church. But they did not become "Jews." Instead, they were being added to the "tree" of Jewish tradition, or Faith. There is nothing in the Scriptures that suggest Gentile Christians become "Jews."

    Neither have Jewish converts to Christianity ever been removed in history. Paul said that there would always be a remnant of Christians among the Jewish People. Though they are cast out by Jews in Judaism, they remain ethnically "Jewish." And they exist to the present day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith
    Now we travel through time to now. Now, Gentiles Christians have their own faith. One that completely avoids speaking about the Hebrews, and is careful not to step over that line. Yet, we still use Hebrew words like "LAMB OF GOD", and "CHRIST" which is "MESSIAH", and "GENTILE", and all the Temple terms and other Hebrew terms. We do not think twice about using Hebrew words like "AMEN" and "Anathema Maranatha". Yet, how dare we accept that the Jews will be a great nation like they were promised... We are GENTILE CHRISTIANS! Jesus died for us, and they were rejected! What a sad state we are in... Lord forgive us!

    We have become the Sadducee and Pharisee... Lord forgive us...
    If you're saying that the Jewish nation can return to God and embrace Christianity I strongly agree. Grace forbids that we deny *any nation* the right and the ability to come to Christ, both individually and collectively, as a nation.

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Why do you think it's only about the spiritual realm? We also don't see it yet here on earth, it's a mess and not getting better over time.

    The Kingdom of Heaven will be established when the Lord returns, this will be the land promised to Abraham of which he never owned a footstep. The fact that there is a heavenly sphere doesn't mean there isn't earthly sphere. Both exist now and both will exist in the next aion. In the current dispensation of grace, rapprochement to God is separate from Israel, but in the next aion it will be through Israel as Peter tells us:

    1 Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    So says the O.T.:

    Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

    Even though Israel so far has failed to take its place, it will do so in the future when the Lord has returned:

    Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

    The restoration of Israel is clear through out Scripture, for example read Zecheriah 8, I'll quote a few verses:

    Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

    Zec 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts. 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; 8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.


    Aristarkos
    1 Pet 2:9 says the opposite. It says that we as believers are now God's people. It does not point to a future Israel.
    Ex 19:6 is thus already fulfilled in believers.
    The Zec scriptures are already fulfilled in the New Testament, albeit in a way that includes but supersedes the original promises.
    Joh 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip dT View Post
    Jesus is already the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords (Phlp 2:9-11) and his enemies is already under his feet (Eph 1:22-23).
    Philipians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    The name of Jesus (YESHUA) was set before the foundation of the World, but at Birth it was given. And it is forever exalted, AMEN! At His name (not His throne) every knee SHOULD bow (not that they yet have), of all creation from the foundation of the World. And all this is to Glorify the Father in Heaven, AMEN!

    Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

    Jesus is our HEAD, the Head of the Church, AMEN! He is now seated on the THRONE OF GOD (not His throne), at the right Hand of Power.

    Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    If He indeed did not sit at the right hand of Power UNTIL He ascended, then this is still true today,

    Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    His place certainly is above all Angels, principalities, powers, and might, and HIS NAME (not His throne) is above all. However, when He receives the Earth as His possession, He will be King over it. Now we regard Him as Lord, but then, He will be regarded as KING.

    Look, I know this is a hard saying, and I certainly do not want people to stop regarding Him as King, for we are indeed to worship Him as our King! He is our King! But the timing of things is important, and many can be confused and teach incorrectly if we do not understand. So the Spirit is trying to correct.

    If we believe that Jesus is already King, then we no longer need to believe He will be King of Israel. There is the problem, and this is the confusion. Yet If He is not going to be the King of Israel, then All scripture is VOID. And we are all doomed, because the scriptures do lie. GOD FORBID!

    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    These verses MUST HAVE A COMPLETION. And yet, they do not need to be completed if Jesus is already King over the earth. Because this means that Israel is already saved! That nation that is offending God every day of even OUR lives, is saved already? Really? Are the 12 Disciples (He also spoke to Judas!) even now reigning over Israel from heaven?

    Riddle me this...

  13. #43
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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip dT View Post
    1 Pet 2:9 says the opposite. It says that we as believers are now God's people. It does not point to a future Israel.
    Ex 19:6 is thus already fulfilled in believers.
    The Zec scriptures are already fulfilled in the New Testament, albeit in a way that includes but supersedes the original promises.
    In other words replacement theology. You are aware that replacement theology makes God a liar?

    Isa 14:1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

    Gentile-Christians are never called a nation and do not have a land and Israel is just that, a nation with a (promised) land.

    Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    He said He will restore Israel in the land, and that is what will happen.

    Aristarkos

  14. #44
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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Philipians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    The name of Jesus (YESHUA) was set before the foundation of the World, but at Birth it was given. And it is forever exalted, AMEN! At His name (not His throne) every knee SHOULD bow (not that they yet have), of all creation from the foundation of the World. And all this is to Glorify the Father in Heaven, AMEN!

    Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

    Jesus is our HEAD, the Head of the Church, AMEN! He is now seated on the THRONE OF GOD (not His throne), at the right Hand of Power.

    Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    If He indeed did not sit at the right hand of Power UNTIL He ascended, then this is still true today,

    Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    His place certainly is above all Angels, principalities, powers, and might, and HIS NAME (not His throne) is above all. However, when He receives the Earth as His possession, He will be King over it. Now we regard Him as Lord, but then, He will be regarded as KING.

    Look, I know this is a hard saying, and I certainly do not want people to stop regarding Him as King, for we are indeed to worship Him as our King! He is our King! But the timing of things is important, and many can be confused and teach incorrectly if we do not understand. So the Spirit is trying to correct.

    If we believe that Jesus is already King, then we no longer need to believe He will be King of Israel. There is the problem, and this is the confusion. Yet If He is not going to be the King of Israel, then All scripture is VOID. And we are all doomed, because the scriptures do lie. GOD FORBID!

    Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    These verses MUST HAVE A COMPLETION. And yet, they do not need to be completed if Jesus is already King over the earth. Because this means that Israel is already saved! That nation that is offending God every day of even OUR lives, is saved already? Really? Are the 12 Disciples (He also spoke to Judas!) even now reigning over Israel from heaven?

    Riddle me this...
    Jesus already fulfilled the OT prophesies regarding the king of Israel. Rom 10:1 does not include the term "Israel" in the original, and probably points to unbelieving Judaeans in Paul's time. As pointed out earlier, I believe that Rom 11:26 is already fulfilled and points to ancient Israel. I cannot see that Mat 19:28 points to an earthly reign from earthly Jerusalem. The 12 tribes of Israel also points to historical, ancient Israel, for in the NT era there is only one people of God: believers in Christ.
    Joh 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

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