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Thread: Believing Jews and Israel

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    Believing Jews and Israel

    I would like to ask some questions,

    1) If a Jew (an Israelite by BLOOD) believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior, are they a Jew OR are they a Believer?


    2) Which comes first in Christ's eyes for His twelve disciples; After His disciples believed in Him, Were they first a Believer, or first a Jew?


    3) Was Paul, an "Israelite indeed", a Jew or a Gentile once he was saved?


    4) Then can one be a Believer and a Jew?


    5) If a Gentile is grafted into the root of Abraham once He believes on Jesus Christ, is he not a part of Israel?


    6) Is it fair then to say that Christ first came for the Jew, then the Gentile, when God is not a respecter of persons?

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I would like to ask some questions,

    1) If a Jew (an Israelite by BLOOD) believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior, are they a Jew OR are they a Believer?
    Both.

    Is a Russian who comes to Christ a believer or a Russian?
    Is a Chinese person who comes to Christ Chinese or a believer?
    Was Cornelius a gentile or a believer?
    Is a woman who comes to Christ a woman or a believer?
    Is a man who comes to Christ a man or a believer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post

    2) Which comes first in Christ's eyes for His twelve disciples; After His disciples believed in Him, Were they first a Believer, or first a Jew?
    This is a false dichotomy, for example -

    Was Jesus first fully human or first fully God ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    3) Was Paul, an "Israelite indeed", a Jew or a Gentile once he was saved?
    Paul was a Messianic Jew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    4) Then can one be a Believer and a Jew?
    Absolutely -

    Paul replied, “I am a Jew, from Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no obscure city. I beg you, permit me to speak to the people.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    5) If a Gentile is grafted into the root of Abraham once He believes on Jesus Christ, is he not a part of Israel?
    He's part of Israel, not part of Jacob.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    6) Is it fair then to say that Christ first came for the Jew, then the Gentile, when God is not a respecter of persons?
    Yes. God is a God of order, not bias.

    That is why Jesus said to John - "so all righteousness may be fulfilled."
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  3. #3

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Great reply Keck. I was thinking the same thing. It's funny how many here are proud of their American heritage, and it doesn't really bother anyone. But if you say you're a Christian Jew or Messianic Jew, somehow it's offensive.
    And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being a proud American. I was born in this wonderful country. So before anyone makes assumptions. There you go.
    9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. - Galatians 6:9-10 NASB

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by jesusinmylife View Post
    Great reply Keck. I was thinking the same thing. It's funny how many here are proud of their American heritage, and it doesn't really bother anyone. But if you say you're a Christian Jew or Messianic Jew, somehow it's offensive.
    And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with being a proud American. I was born in this wonderful country. So before anyone makes assumptions. There you go.
    Amen. Why is it people who want others to conform to their cultural box use God as leverage? That's probably one of the the greatest stumbling block to the Gospel.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I would like to ask some questions,

    1) If a Jew (an Israelite by BLOOD) believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior, are they a Jew OR are they a Believer?


    2) Which comes first in Christ's eyes for His twelve disciples; After His disciples believed in Him, Were they first a Believer, or first a Jew?


    3) Was Paul, an "Israelite indeed", a Jew or a Gentile once he was saved?


    4) Then can one be a Believer and a Jew?


    5) If a Gentile is grafted into the root of Abraham once He believes on Jesus Christ, is he not a part of Israel?


    6) Is it fair then to say that Christ first came for the Jew, then the Gentile, when God is not a respecter of persons?
    Taking our past discussions into account, I would like to answer your questions with questions. Let us say, for the argument's sake that Queen Elizabeth of Great Britain was barren. She, like Abraham, would have no heir. She commissions 500 of her most honorable and intelligent subjects to search all Great Britain for an heir. After a grand search and lengthy debate, a baby boy whose parents are commoners by the name of Smith, and who could not afford to keep the boy, and who gave him up for adoption, is chosen by Queen Elizabeth. He is formally adopted into the House of Windsor. Now to the questions;
    • For the rest of his life does the boy, and later a man, go by the name of Smith or Windsor?
    • Will his name ever appear as Smith in any official documents?
    • Will he be treated like a pauper of the house of Smith or a Prince of the House of Windsor?
    • Will he inherit nothing as his parents were paupers, or will he inherit the wealth of the House of Windsor?
    • At the death of Queen Elizabeth, will he return to his hovel, or ascend the throne of Great Britain?
    • Will any visiting dignitary ever address him as Smith, or will this be taken as an extreme offense?

    I'm sure you will, as a Christian, answer truthfully, and in doing so, answer your own questions.

    Now consider this, you and I are adopted into the Royal House of the Living God of the universe (Gal.4:5; Eph.1:5). But even more, we are born by the seed of God (Jn.1:12-13; 1st Pet.1.23). We have gone from the slagheap to be seated in the heavenlies IN Christ by BIRTH AND ADOPTION. Why would we ever consider claiming our slagheap origin?

    Will Israel have a prominent position in the Millennial Kingdom? By all means YES! They will be the leading nation among the nations. Christ - Emmanuel will dwell AMONG them and they will serve Him. But ...
    • They were born of the womb - the Church was born of the Holy Spirit. The "least" in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John Baptist who was born of a woman
    • They forfeit their inheritance like Esau the despised - the Church takes it from them, and in due time, exercises ALL the fame and privileges of it
    • They are ruled by the Church (Matt.19:28; Lk.22:30)
    • They remain under Law till heaven and earth pass
    • They are "earthly" in resurrection having rejected the "heavenly calling" (Heb.3:1)
    • Their history until God wipes it away on the new Earth (Rev.21:4) is one of shame

    Now, why would any Christian identify with this? I ask you - Smith or Windsor?

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Taking our past discussions into account, I would like to answer your questions with questions. Let us say, for the argument's sake that Queen Elizabeth of Great Britain was barren. She, like Abraham, would have no heir. She commissions 500 of her most honorable and intelligent subjects to search all Great Britain for an heir. After a grand search and lengthy debate, a baby boy whose parents are commoners by the name of Smith, and who could not afford to keep the boy, and who gave him up for adoption, is chosen by Queen Elizabeth. He is formally adopted into the House of Windsor. Now to the questions;
    LOL, I wanted others to think about what I was asking and answer the question... But I will answer my own questions now through your post...

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    For the rest of his life does the boy, and later a man, go by the name of Smith or Windsor?
    He can go by either, but It doesn't matter, as He is in the House of the Queen. He needs to go by whatever She calls him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Will his name ever appear as Smith in any official documents?
    His birth certificate. So yes, and again, the Queen can undo or do any thing with any documents, so this also matters not. He will be called by whatever the Queen commands. And yet, the queen knows where he came from, and his original name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Will he be treated like a pauper of the house of Smith or a Prince of the House of Windsor?
    He will be treated as the Queen desires. Remember, those in the dungeon are also of the Queen. His actions will be judged by the Queen, and she will determine how he is treated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Will he inherit nothing as his parents were paupers, or will he inherit the wealth of the House of Windsor?
    He is at the mercy of the Queen. If his inheritance is under the Queen's hands. So if his actions are desirous of wealth, he will receive crowns of Glory. If not, he will gnash his teeth at his inheritance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    At the death of Queen Elizabeth, will he return to his hovel, or ascend the throne of Great Britain?
    Again, this depends on the Queen's Judgement. If she is a wise Queen, she would leave a will that has stipulations to enter the throne-room. So then If he is worthy to stand before the Queens throne, he will judge from it as she did. If not, he will be removed from he castle as a vagabond, if that is what she so desired.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Will any visiting dignitary ever address him as Smith, or will this be taken as an extreme offense?
    Smith will be a part of him for ever. To deny ones heritage is useless. He should be aware of where he came from so that he will respect where he is now. And then seek to glorify the Queen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Now consider this, you and I are adopted into the Royal House of the Living God of the universe (Gal.4:5; Eph.1:5). But even more, we are born by the seed of God (Jn.1:12-13; 1st Pet.1.23). We have gone from the slagheap to be seated in the heavenlies IN Christ by BIRTH AND ADOPTION. Why would we ever consider claiming our slagheap origin?
    Remembering where we came from and comparing it to our current condition is called a TESTIMONY. It is used to share with unbelievers who are in the slagheap we used to wallow in, so that they may see our great WORKS in the Fruit of our Spirit that we did not have before. Then perhaps they will be saved and we will have harvested one more for the Lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Will Israel have a prominent position in the Millennial Kingdom? By all means YES! They will be the leading nation among the nations. Christ - Emmanuel will dwell AMONG them and they will serve Him.
    AMEN!

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But ...
    • They were born of the womb - the Church was born of the Holy Spirit. The "least" in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than John Baptist who was born of a woman
    • They forfeit their inheritance like Esau the despised - the Church takes it from them, and in due time, exercises ALL the fame and privileges of it
    • They are ruled by the Church (Matt.19:28; Lk.22:30)
    • They remain under Law till heaven and earth pass
    • They are "earthly" in resurrection having rejected the "heavenly calling" (Heb.3:1)
    • Their history until God wipes it away on the new Earth (Rev.21:4) is one of shame

    Now, why would any Christian identify with this? I ask you - Smith or Windsor?
    You miss the importance of their sacrifice... They were removed (ripped away) from the olive tree of Issac, so that we Gentiles could be grafted as a wild olive branch into the trunk. So without the actions (lord have mercy on them) they performed, we never would have been able to be saved; the wound in the tree was the spot we were grafted into. So then should be boast about that? NO WAY!!! Quite the opposite! We should desire that they be grafted back in as we were. If we were so easily grafted in as a wild thing into a pure thing, how much easier it would be for them to be grafted back into the thing they were taken from? So then we wait for that to happen, showing our testimony to the pure olive branch so that they may come to the Lord even if out of Jealousy.

    And the Lord promises that grafting, though only a tiny remnant. There suffering will be great...

    Sometimes as Christians, we do not realize what we say. To not identify with Israel is to not identify with Jesus Himself. He is the "Seed of the women". We are the seed of man. There are two seeds. The Lord prophesied to Eve, the first woman in the very beginning of time:

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    This is saying that Israel (the seed of the woman) will bruise Satan's head by bringing forth the Son of Man through the seed of Mary, and Satan bruises the Israel's heal after causing "her seed" (Israel) to kill THE SEED Himself.

    Now, gentiles are the Seed of man, and are not of the seed of woman. Jeremiah 31:27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

    So then if Jesus is the seed of woman, how do we dare revile the woman through which the seed came? Would you revile your own mother then?

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    LOL, I wanted others to think about what I was asking and answer the question... But I will answer my own questions now through your post...



    He can go by either, but It doesn't matter, as He is in the House of the Queen. He needs to go by whatever She calls him.



    His birth certificate. So yes, and again, the Queen can undo or do any thing with any documents, so this also matters not. He will be called by whatever the Queen commands. And yet, the queen knows where he came from, and his original name.



    He will be treated as the Queen desires. Remember, those in the dungeon are also of the Queen. His actions will be judged by the Queen, and she will determine how he is treated.



    He is at the mercy of the Queen. If his inheritance is under the Queen's hands. So if his actions are desirous of wealth, he will receive crowns of Glory. If not, he will gnash his teeth at his inheritance.



    Again, this depends on the Queen's Judgement. If she is a wise Queen, she would leave a will that has stipulations to enter the throne-room. So then If he is worthy to stand before the Queens throne, he will judge from it as she did. If not, he will be removed from he castle as a vagabond, if that is what she so desired.



    Smith will be a part of him for ever. To deny ones heritage is useless. He should be aware of where he came from so that he will respect where he is now. And then seek to glorify the Queen.



    Remembering where we came from and comparing it to our current condition is called a TESTIMONY. It is used to share with unbelievers who are in the slagheap we used to wallow in, so that they may see our great WORKS in the Fruit of our Spirit that we did not have before. Then perhaps they will be saved and we will have harvested one more for the Lord.

    AMEN!



    You miss the importance of their sacrifice... They were removed (ripped away) from the olive tree of Issac, so that we Gentiles could be grafted as a wild olive branch into the trunk. So without the actions (lord have mercy on them) they performed, we never would have been able to be saved; the wound in the tree was the spot we were grafted into. So then should be boast about that? NO WAY!!! Quite the opposite! We should desire that they be grafted back in as we were. If we were so easily grafted in as a wild thing into a pure thing, how much easier it would be for them to be grafted back into the thing they were taken from? So then we wait for that to happen, showing our testimony to the pure olive branch so that they may come to the Lord even if out of Jealousy.

    And the Lord promises that grafting, though only a tiny remnant. There suffering will be great...

    Sometimes as Christians, we do not realize what we say. To not identify with Israel is to not identify with Jesus Himself. He is the "Seed of the women". We are the seed of man. There are two seeds. The Lord prophesied to Eve, the first woman in the very beginning of time:

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    This is saying that Israel (the seed of the woman) will bruise Satan's head by bringing forth the Son of Man through the seed of Mary, and Satan bruises the Israel's heal after causing "her seed" (Israel) to kill THE SEED Himself.

    Now, gentiles are the Seed of man, and are not of the seed of woman. Jeremiah 31:27 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

    So then if Jesus is the seed of woman, how do we dare revile the woman through which the seed came? Would you revile your own mother then?
    Good. If you love your previous title as a Gentile of "Fallen and Unclean flesh of Adam at enmity with God headed for the Trashheap of the universe - Gehenna", please be my guest. If you were an Israelite, then your previous title is somewhat more ignominious; "Fallen and Unclean Flesh of Adam, Rejector of the Law of God, Unfit for entry into the Holy of Holies and murderer of my Messiah" - but what an insult to the Work of our wonderful Lord Jesus too want to, and be proud to, dwell on your past fleshly title.

    I abhor my old title and cling to my new One ...

    "New Man, New Creature, seated in the heavens IN Christ ... as a living stone, built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ, a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:5, 9 etc.).

    Paul felt the same way. Philippians 3:4-9 ...

    4 "Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
    5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
    8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

    9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


    ... Paul's glorious heritage and affiliation to being a "Hebrew of Hebrews" is but DUNG.

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by demstones View Post
    Does this not say it all? I can say I am an American , or a black, or a white Christian, but why is it necessary? It is not.
    When I speak, is it not better to seek to honour the name Christ in Christian? So which comes first. Christ or American?
    Or your colour comes first?
    Welcome to the Forum, and, "Amen".

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Good. If you love your previous title as a Gentile of "Fallen and Unclean flesh of Adam at enmity with God headed for the Trashheap of the universe - Gehenna", please be my guest. If you were an Israelite, then your previous title is somewhat more ignominious; "Fallen and Unclean Flesh of Adam, Rejector of the Law of God, Unfit for entry into the Holy of Holies and murderer of my Messiah" - but what an insult to the Work of our wonderful Lord Jesus too want to, and be proud to, dwell on your past fleshly title.

    I abhor my old title and cling to my new One ...

    "New Man, New Creature, seated in the heavens IN Christ ... as a living stone, built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ, a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:5, 9 etc.).

    Paul felt the same way. Philippians 3:4-9 ...

    4 "Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
    5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
    6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

    7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
    8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

    9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


    ... Paul's glorious heritage and affiliation to being a "Hebrew of Hebrews" is but DUNG.
    If Paul's Fleshy righteousness is then Dung, you would agree that Paul said in verse 3 "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

    Then he slapped all those who believe they are high and mighty (as Hebrews) in the face by telling them he is (IN THE FLESH) much better than all of them, but yet he was a servant of all... We must not raise ourselves up on a pedestal... The higher you are the further you fall... Because it was also Paul who admitted he was a principle sinner!

    Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    So then if Paul used His testimony of a being a sinner, should we also not be ashamed of our sinful past (as those that were forgiven are washed away), and instead use that example to win another? For example, I am blessed in knowing that PAUL, an Apostle for Christ was able to be saved even though he (as Saul) was the instigator of death to many who followed Christ... Though we are indeed the sons of God, we must in the flesh (and heart) do the works of a lowly servant, unworthy to untie the shoes of a Brother. I am a servant to all, Just as the Son of God washed the feet of His disciples, I too will serve those of whom the Lord placed under my feet. And if my testimony will win even one, I give all praise to God!

    James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. I am a person who is convinced that being lowly, poor, and meek is the commandment of Christ. I am not one who would boast that I am seated in the heavens with Christ, although I know I am. In boasting, I have just become the Sadducee or Pharisee that Christ warned us of, that have the preeminence over the church. If the Lord then brings me from the back on the floor to the front on a throne, and makes me first, I will rejoice the more... But not until then.

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    If Paul's Fleshy righteousness is then Dung, you would agree that Paul said in verse 3 "For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

    Then he slapped all those who believe they are high and mighty (as Hebrews) in the face by telling them he is (IN THE FLESH) much better than all of them, but yet he was a servant of all... We must not raise ourselves up on a pedestal... The higher you are the further you fall... Because it was also Paul who admitted he was a principle sinner!

    Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    So then if Paul used His testimony of a being a sinner, should we also not be ashamed of our sinful past (as those that were forgiven are washed away), and instead use that example to win another? For example, I am blessed in knowing that PAUL, an Apostle for Christ was able to be saved even though he (as Saul) was the instigator of death to many who followed Christ... Though we are indeed the sons of God, we must in the flesh (and heart) do the works of a lowly servant, unworthy to untie the shoes of a Brother. I am a servant to all, Just as the Son of God washed the feet of His disciples, I too will serve those of whom the Lord placed under my feet. And if my testimony will win even one, I give all praise to God!

    James 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. I am a person who is convinced that being lowly, poor, and meek is the commandment of Christ. I am not one who would boast that I am seated in the heavens with Christ, although I know I am. In boasting, I have just become the Sadducee or Pharisee that Christ warned us of, that have the preeminence over the church. If the Lord then brings me from the back on the floor to the front on a throne, and makes me first, I will rejoice the more... But not until then.
    I must admit I cannot follow your argument. We discuss believing Jews and Israel and the CHANGE of status that faith brings. I gave the example of a pauper from a tin shanty on the slagheap being elevated to heir of the throne of Great Britain and whether it would be appropriate for him to cling to his former title, the which has been superseded by his new and elevated title. We discuss the title "Hebrew of Hebrews". What has Paul's fleshly righteousness got to do with this?

    • God has decreed that in His Church there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek. Who is the rebel who will tell God He is wrong and that a Jew remains?
    • God has decreed that it is a NEW Man. Who is the rebel who corrects God and carries his old and defiled past into the New Man?
    • God has made all this possible by a NEW Birth by the Holy Spirit. Who is the man who will harp on his old one from Adam?
    • God has concluded Israel under curses of the Law. Who is the man who, having this curse removed by the cross of Christ, returns to it?
    • God has done a NEW THING altogether. Who is the man who strives to return to the old and insists on the old name that has been forbidden by God?


    Consider this.
    1. The Gentiles are wholly given to sin and, in time, face the wrath of God from heaven. Who is the Christian, who having escaped this coming wrath, both on earth by Tribulation, and before the Judgement Seat with the threat if the Second Death, would return to his ignominious past and cherish his fallen title?
    2. Israel has received ALL the advantages of BOTH the Law and God's presence. Their perfidy was unlimited and they rejected both the Law and God. Then God sends His beloved Son as Israel's Messiah - and they despitefully treat Him and murder Him and His disciples. A Jew who believes is given a new status and a new title. Why would he return to, and cherish, the status and title of Law-breaker, despiser of God, cursed, perfidious, murderer and liar?
    3. What profit is there when a man is elevated from the fleshly origin to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the grave to eternal life, from the profanity of Esau to the heir of the world, AND THEN RETURNS TO THE BASE THINGS?

    There NO profit in being a "believing JEW". All the profit is in being a "believer" - period! This make him a NEW MAN, a NEW CREATURE, in the which GOD has decreed that a man's fleshly origin is NOT RECOGNIZED. Why taunt God with a return to an ignominious past that He has, at great cost, drawn you out of?

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I must admit I cannot follow your argument. We discuss believing Jews and Israel and the CHANGE of status that faith brings. I gave the example of a pauper from a tin shanty on the slagheap being elevated to heir of the throne of Great Britain and whether it would be appropriate for him to cling to his former title, the which has been superseded by his new and elevated title. We discuss the title "Hebrew of Hebrews". What has Paul's fleshly righteousness got to do with this?

    • God has decreed that in His Church there is NEITHER Jew nor Greek. Who is the rebel who will tell God He is wrong and that a Jew remains?
    • God has decreed that it is a NEW Man. Who is the rebel who corrects God and carries his old and defiled past into the New Man?
    • God has made all this possible by a NEW Birth by the Holy Spirit. Who is the man who will harp on his old one from Adam?
    • God has concluded Israel under curses of the Law. Who is the man who, having this curse removed by the cross of Christ, returns to it?
    • God has done a NEW THING altogether. Who is the man who strives to return to the old and insists on the old name that has been forbidden by God?


    Consider this.
    1. The Gentiles are wholly given to sin and, in time, face the wrath of God from heaven. Who is the Christian, who having escaped this coming wrath, both on earth by Tribulation, and before the Judgement Seat with the threat if the Second Death, would return to his ignominious past and cherish his fallen title?
    2. Israel has received ALL the advantages of BOTH the Law and God's presence. Their perfidy was unlimited and they rejected both the Law and God. Then God sends His beloved Son as Israel's Messiah - and they despitefully treat Him and murder Him and His disciples. A Jew who believes is given a new status and a new title. Why would he return to, and cherish, the status and title of Law-breaker, despiser of God, cursed, perfidious, murderer and liar?
    3. What profit is there when a man is elevated from the fleshly origin to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the grave to eternal life, from the profanity of Esau to the heir of the world, AND THEN RETURNS TO THE BASE THINGS?

    There NO profit in being a "believing JEW". All the profit is in being a "believer" - period! This make him a NEW MAN, a NEW CREATURE, in the which GOD has decreed that a man's fleshly origin is NOT RECOGNIZED. Why taunt God with a return to an ignominious past that He has, at great cost, drawn you out of?
    Let's see if we can agree a different way...

    I believe and agree that in the eyes of God, who is not a respecter of persons, there is indeed now no difference in Jew or Gentile.

    2 Chronicles 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

    Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


    However, notice above in Romans 2:11, that before this was said, Paul says the following:

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


    So then if God is not a respecter of persons, (WHICH HE IS NOT), then how can Paul say one people (Jews) are first, and another (Gentiles) are second? There is no way that this SEPARATION of PEOPLE has anything to do with respecting the "person", am I right?

    So then, what is this saying, because it most certainly SEEMS to separate one set of people from another... Bet yet the Hearts of the People can not be separated. In Christ we are all one, if our Hearts indeed have the Holy Spirit dwelling within. Notice that when Christ comes, he gathers from "ALL NATIONS" that serve Him... This would include one that would call themselves a Jew or one that would not call themselves a Jew.

    Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


    These are written here:

    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    But again, what about the Jew first? Why first? And then we see Jesus mention a separation of first and last with His Disciples with a warning:

    Matt 19:8 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

    So listen carefully... This prophecy by Christ Himself is telling of a future reign (not yet come), where the 12 HEBREW Disciples will sit on 12 thrones and will judge "the twelve tribes of Israel". Notice they are not judging any other nation, but ONLY the 12 tribes of Israel. JEWS FIRST... But yet, there are many that ARE FIRST, who will be LAST. So then those who END UP BEING first, are the believers... As we have already received our Kingdom in that WE BELIEVED ON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, so we are already sitting on our "proverbial thrones":

    Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    But yet again, this set of verses indicates we are not yet quite on those thrones, as we have not yet been quickened, and at that time the "ages to come" had not yet arrived. BUT I TELL YOU WE ARE THERE NOW! So then, We, the first are waiting for the Last (ISRAEL) to look upon Him who was pierced, and come to Him. So that we, (ISRAEL, and the CHURCH) can indeed be one. This will happen in its completeness at the start of the Millennial Reign...

    I am afraid that anyone that can not accept a literal 1000 year reign on the Earth by Christ Himself will never grasp the concept of "the fist shall be last and the last shall be first". The reason I doubt this, is because the ultimate fulfillment of the First who became the last in in the FLESH that will exist in Israel at the Time of Christ's reign. The Spiritual is the First, and the FLESH is the second: We see this proverb that explains this:

    1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    So then, if that which was first is FLESH, and that which was second was SPIRIT, then for the Last to be first would mean that FIRST, the Spiritual is addressed, then the FLESH. So that, if We SPIRITUALLY (All mankind - ALL NATIONS) accept Christ, we have now done so BEFORE ISRAEL (who is ISRAEL IN THE FLESH). Then afterward, ALL ISRAEL will be saved. For the Word says:

    Deuteronomy 33:29 Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the Lord, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

    Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


    AMEN.

  12. #12
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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Let's see if we can agree a different way...

    I believe and agree that in the eyes of God, who is not a respecter of persons, there is indeed now no difference in Jew or Gentile.

    2 Chronicles 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

    Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

    Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.


    However, notice above in Romans 2:11, that before this was said, Paul says the following:

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


    So then if God is not a respecter of persons, (WHICH HE IS NOT), then how can Paul say one people (Jews) are first, and another (Gentiles) are second? There is no way that this SEPARATION of PEOPLE has anything to do with respecting the "person", am I right?

    So then, what is this saying, because it most certainly SEEMS to separate one set of people from another... Bet yet the Hearts of the People can not be separated. In Christ we are all one, if our Hearts indeed have the Holy Spirit dwelling within. Notice that when Christ comes, he gathers from "ALL NATIONS" that serve Him... This would include one that would call themselves a Jew or one that would not call themselves a Jew.

    Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


    These are written here:

    Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    But again, what about the Jew first? Why first? And then we see Jesus mention a separation of first and last with His Disciples with a warning:

    Matt 19:8 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

    So listen carefully... This prophecy by Christ Himself is telling of a future reign (not yet come), where the 12 HEBREW Disciples will sit on 12 thrones and will judge "the twelve tribes of Israel". Notice they are not judging any other nation, but ONLY the 12 tribes of Israel. JEWS FIRST... But yet, there are many that ARE FIRST, who will be LAST. So then those who END UP BEING first, are the believers... As we have already received our Kingdom in that WE BELIEVED ON THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, so we are already sitting on our "proverbial thrones":

    Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    But yet again, this set of verses indicates we are not yet quite on those thrones, as we have not yet been quickened, and at that time the "ages to come" had not yet arrived. BUT I TELL YOU WE ARE THERE NOW! So then, We, the first are waiting for the Last (ISRAEL) to look upon Him who was pierced, and come to Him. So that we, (ISRAEL, and the CHURCH) can indeed be one. This will happen in its completeness at the start of the Millennial Reign...

    I am afraid that anyone that can not accept a literal 1000 year reign on the Earth by Christ Himself will never grasp the concept of "the fist shall be last and the last shall be first". The reason I doubt this, is because the ultimate fulfillment of the First who became the last in in the FLESH that will exist in Israel at the Time of Christ's reign. The Spiritual is the First, and the FLESH is the second: We see this proverb that explains this:

    1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    So then, if that which was first is FLESH, and that which was second was SPIRIT, then for the Last to be first would mean that FIRST, the Spiritual is addressed, then the FLESH. So that, if We SPIRITUALLY (All mankind - ALL NATIONS) accept Christ, we have now done so BEFORE ISRAEL (who is ISRAEL IN THE FLESH). Then afterward, ALL ISRAEL will be saved. For the Word says:

    Deuteronomy 33:29 Happy art thou, O Israel: who is like unto thee, O people saved by the Lord, the shield of thy help, and who is the sword of thy excellency! and thine enemies shall be found liars unto thee; and thou shalt tread upon their high places.

    Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The Lord Our Righteousness.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


    AMEN.
    Thank you for your response. The Greek word for "first" is the adverb "proton". Strong gives the meaning as; "firstly (in time, place, order, or importance) :- before, at the beginning, chiefly, (at, at the) first (of all)". That is, it can mean First in Time, like Matthew 5:24; "Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first (proton) be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift", or it can mean First in Importance like Romans 3:2; "Much every way: chiefly (proton), because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." The question then is, in Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek", does it mean that the Jew is First in IMPORTANCE or First in TIME?

    It is clear from other scriptures that it does NOT mean first in IMPORTANCE. Here is the proof:
    • Acts 1:8; "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Here, an ORDER is given, and this ORDER is carried out. The gospel is FIRST (in time) preached in Jerusalem on Pentecost, THEN (in time) Judea (Act.8:1), THEN (in time) Samaria (Act.8:5), and THEN in Cornelius' house (Acts 10), and THEN to "all the world" (Rom.1:8, 10:18).
    • In the rest of Acts Paul always went to the synagogue first to preach Christ until Acts 28.

    Thus, you have well said, in regard to the gospel of grace, Jews only are offered the good news FIRST IN TIME and NOT first in IMPORTANCE.

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your response. The Greek word for "first" is the adverb "proton". Strong gives the meaning as; "firstly (in time, place, order, or importance) :- before, at the beginning, chiefly, (at, at the) first (of all)". That is, it can mean First in Time, like Matthew 5:24; "Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first (proton) be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift", or it can mean First in Importance like Romans 3:2; "Much every way: chiefly (proton), because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." The question then is, in Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek", does it mean that the Jew is First in IMPORTANCE or First in TIME?

    It is clear from other scriptures that it does NOT mean first in IMPORTANCE. Here is the proof:
    • Acts 1:8; "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Here, an ORDER is given, and this ORDER is carried out. The gospel is FIRST (in time) preached in Jerusalem on Pentecost, THEN (in time) Judea (Act.8:1), THEN (in time) Samaria (Act.8:5), and THEN in Cornelius' house (Acts 10), and THEN to "all the world" (Rom.1:8, 10:18).
    • In the rest of Acts Paul always went to the synagogue first to preach Christ until Acts 28.

    Thus, you have well said, in regard to the gospel of grace, Jews only are offered the good news FIRST IN TIME and NOT first in IMPORTANCE.
    Yes I agree with you. But do you see the importance of Israel in the Millennium (as I know and agree with you that the Millennium is a 1000 year reign of Christ)?

    Matt 19:8 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Yes I agree with you. But do you see the importance of Israel in the Millennium (as I know and agree with you that the Millennium is a 1000 year reign of Christ)?

    Matt 19:8 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
    No contest. Israel is very important in the Millennium. Let us see;
    • They are a living testimony that God keeps His promises. The Covenant with Abraham was one of Promise - conditional only on circumcision
    • They are a living testimony that God forgives even the most heinous of sins - the rejection of their Messiah, and His and the prophets' murder
    • They are living testimony that the prophets, and thus God's Word, was accurate to the last jot and title - literally
    • They will entertain Emmanuel - their King for ever in their midst
    • They will serve Emmanuel in His Temple as the mediators of the nations who come up to worship annually
    • They will be the leading nations among the nations
    • They will fulfill the Law under their New Covenant (Jer.31:31; Heb.8:8)

    But the Church will be MUCH greater. They;
    • Possess Eternal Life (Jn.3:15-16). Israel refused to believe and thus forfeit eternal life*
    • Are greater than Israel. Israel are born of the womb but the Church is born of the Holy Spirit (Matt.11:11; Lk.7:28; Jn.3:3-5)
    • Rule Israel and the nations for Israel forfeit the Kingdom (Matt.19:28, 21:43). The Twelve Apostles are counted as the Church (Eph.2:20-22)
    • Are guests to the Wedding Feast of Christ (Matt.22:9-10)
    • Possess "celestial" glory in resurrection (1st Cor.15:35-41)
    • Will be in the image of Christ (Rom.8:29; 2nd Cor.3:18)
    • Are sons of God (Jn.1:12)
    • Are heirs to the world (Rom.4:13; Gal.3:29)
    • Will be judges of the world (1st Cor.6:2)
    • Will judge angels (1st Cor.6:3)
    • Will have the powers that Jesus possessed (Heb.6:5)


    * There is a vast difference between "everlasting life" and "Eternal Life". All men will be resurrected and cannot die again (1st Cor.15:22; Lk.20:36; Heb.9:27). That is everlasting life. It has a beginning but no end. It is the vitality of a man in resurrection. "Eternal Life" is the intrinsic nature of God (2nd Pet.1:3-4). It has no beginning and no end. It God's vitality.

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    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I would like to ask some questions,
    1) If a Jew (an Israelite by BLOOD) believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior, are they a Jew OR are they a Believer?
    Both

    2) Which comes first in Christ's eyes for His twelve disciples; After His disciples believed in Him, Were they first a Believer, or first a Jew?
    First a Jew.

    3) Was Paul, an "Israelite indeed", a Jew or a Gentile once he was saved?
    Israelite

    4) Then can one be a Believer and a Jew?
    Yes

    5) If a Gentile is grafted into the root of Abraham once He believes on Jesus Christ, is he not a part of Israel?
    No.

    6) Is it fair then to say that Christ first came for the Jew, then the Gentile, when God is not a respecter of persons?
    Yes, while historically the gospel went to the Jew first then the Greek, Paul argues that justification has always been by faith, even from the time of Abraham. God's plan for salvation has never changed. What changes over time is our understanding of it.

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