Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 46 to 52 of 52

Thread: Believing Jews and Israel

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    4,638
    Blog Entries
    34

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip dT View Post
    Jesus already fulfilled the OT prophesies regarding the king of Israel. Rom 10:1 does not include the term "Israel" in the original, and probably points to unbelieving Judaeans in Paul's time. As pointed out earlier, I believe that Rom 11:26 is already fulfilled and points to ancient Israel. I cannot see that Mat 19:28 points to an earthly reign from earthly Jerusalem. The 12 tribes of Israel also points to historical, ancient Israel, for in the NT era there is only one people of God: believers in Christ.
    He hasn't fulfilled them all. Not yet. There are more prophecies yet to happen.

  2. #47

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip dT View Post
    Jesus already fulfilled the OT prophesies regarding the king of Israel.
    Peace be with you 'brethren', in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST. Yes indeed they are fulfilled, as Angel Gabriel said to Virgin Mary in regards to the child she will conceive.

    Luke 1:

    32. He shall be great, and shall be called the SON of the Highest: and the LORD GOD shall give unto Him the throne of His father David:
    33. And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His Kingdom there shall be no end.

    Rom 10:1 does not include the term "Israel" in the original, and probably points to unbelieving Judaeans in Paul's time. As pointed out earlier,
    It points to 'all Israel' in general, where there are the residing from Jerusalem in authority with the people, Judaizers. And then the Samaritans from Mount Sinai, and others scattered in other nations, as referred to the lost tribes of Israel. Therefore, beginning from Jerusalem and to all the surrounding regions itself, initially the Gospel was preached and taught, beginning done by the MESSIAH Himself. And moreover whereby Scripturally, in general Israel as a nation is 'harden' by GOD in regards the Gospel, as HIS enemies, while the Gospel is still preached and taught there. From them, only a remnant was saved by grace that day, including Apostle Paul as a Jew, from the tribe of Benjamin, later. And since to date then moving on, the gospel had to be preached to the Gentiles henceforth. Apostle Paul was addressing this message about his unsaved 'kinsmen', to the Gentile church of the Romans, where the Gospel has already come to them among other Gentile nations.

    I believe that Rom 11:26 is already fulfilled and points to ancient Israel.
    Not yet, but nevertheless, will come to pass. From since then to now the Gospel is being preached and taught to the Gentiles, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in (vs. 25end). i believe the Gospel will go back to the nation Israel when the two witnesses appear in Jerusalem, during the reign of 'Anti-CHRIST', where they will minster the Gospel once again from Jerusalem. And that is when the prophecy of Rom. 11:26, will be fulfilled in them.

    I cannot see that Mat 19:28 points to an earthly reign from earthly Jerusalem.
    It is the Heavenly Jerusalem, where JESUS said to them that He will go forth and prepare a place for them, and where they will be seated on twelve thrones, with Him judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Because JESUS is already seated in the Throne of His Glory, according to Hebrews1:3end. Whether from the spiritual realm prospective, where in the spirit here on earth and from Jerusalem, in oneness they will be judging the twelve of Israel, in preaching and teaching the Gospel, for their repentance? Or perhaps, on judgement day in the future? Moreover, i don't see why are they judging the twelve tribes of Israel on judgement day, when 'all Israel will be saved'?

    i believe my first question is the answer, where the Spiritual connection between JESUS seated on His Throne(Heb.1:3end) in Heaven, and with the Apostles seated on the twelve thrones spiritually connected and operating here on earth judging the twelve tribes of Israel, by their preaching and teaching, and for their repentance, as ministers to 'the Word'.

    The 12 tribes of Israel also points to historical, ancient Israel, for in the NT era there is only one people of God: believers in Christ.
    Not exactly referring to the 'remnant chosen by grace' that results to the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation, but even the past and present 'harden' Israel from the house of Jacob. And too the future day Israel, whom are all the beloved people of GOD still, for the sake of their 'forefathers' (Romans 11:25-32). After the ascension of the 144,000 twelve tribes of Israel, as the remnant chosen by grace to date, and also half of the Gentile Christians on the other hand, that is during the three and a half year reign of 'anti-CHRIST', the 'beast' will one day finally wage war against the present day Israel. Please remember, when Israel will be surrounded overwhelmingly by all nations of the earth, their enemies, in order to eliminate them from the face of this earth. And then when CHRIST shall come with His angels, is to defend them and destroy their enemies from where they will be standing.

    May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless HIS church.
    Last edited by fred06; Oct 24th 2017 at 10:54 AM. Reason: For to the best and clearer explanation as possible.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    2,371
    Blog Entries
    26

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I would like to ask some questions,

    1) If a Jew (an Israelite by BLOOD) believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior, are they a Jew OR are they a Believer?
    They were Jews, now they are a Messianic Jews. The best of both worlds.

    2) Which comes first in Christ's eyes for His twelve disciples; After His disciples believed in Him, Were they first a Believer, or first a Jew?
    They were just Jews who came to believe.

    3) Was Paul, an "Israelite indeed", a Jew or a Gentile once he was saved?
    He was a Jew who came to believe. I would call him a Messianic Jew.

    4) Then can one be a Believer and a Jew?
    Absolutely, that was the plan all along The Jews who listened, and believed started the Church.

    5) If a Gentile is grafted into the root of Abraham once He believes on Jesus Christ, is he not a part of Israel?
    Yes, we are “spiritually” Jewish now. We follow the same God as the Jews knew, but a more revealed version of Him.

    6) Is it fair then to say that Christ first came for the Jew, then the Gentile, when God is not a respecter of persons?
    Who says he is not a respecter of persons? Yes he came for the Jew first then the gentile.
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    2,371
    Blog Entries
    26

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Philip dT View Post
    Jesus already fulfilled the OT prophesies regarding the king of Israel. Rom 10:1 does not include the term "Israel" in the original, and probably points to unbelieving Judaeans in Paul's time. As pointed out earlier, I believe that Rom 11:26 is already fulfilled and points to ancient Israel. I cannot see that Mat 19:28 points to an earthly reign from earthly Jerusalem. The 12 tribes of Israel also points to historical, ancient Israel, for in the NT era there is only one people of God: believers in Christ.
    Nicely stated. .....
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

  5. #50

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I would like to ask some questions,

    1) If a Jew (an Israelite by BLOOD) believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior, are they a Jew OR are they a Believer?


    2) Which comes first in Christ's eyes for His twelve disciples; After His disciples believed in Him, Were they first a Believer, or first a Jew?


    3) Was Paul, an "Israelite indeed", a Jew or a Gentile once he was saved?


    4) Then can one be a Believer and a Jew?


    5) If a Gentile is grafted into the root of Abraham once He believes on Jesus Christ, is he not a part of Israel?


    6) Is it fair then to say that Christ first came for the Jew, then the Gentile, when God is not a respecter of persons?
    Replacement Theology vs. Original Jewish and Christians designations. This is really a war over words. A Jewish Believer is very much a Jew and a Christian. Jews today prefer to designate a "Jew" one who is a Jew religiously. However, everybody knows that there is a physical component to being Jewish. Not only is a Jew designated as such by virtue of being born of a Jewish mother, but he is also assumed to have origins in the ancestry of the original Hebrew patriarchs.

    So, if you want to avoid this confusion over words you may or may not want to avoid terms like "Jewish Christian." To a Jew that is nonsense. That would be, to them an oxymoron.

    However, to the Christian there can indeed be someone of a Jewish ethnic background who becomes a Christian. He would then be of Jewish ethnic background and also a Christian, hence a "Jewish Christian."

    I personally reject Replacement Theology, although it has a long and respectable history in the Church. I do believe the Church gave up hope in the restoration of Israel as a godly nation when it became clear over centuries that the Jewish People would *not* embrace the gospel as a people and as a nation.

    I don't believe the recalcitrance of the Jewish People indicates, however, that Israel will not be restored spiritually and become a Christian nation. This is likely just another long period in which the Jewish People are judged and diminished until they can be restored.

    There have been very long periods in history in which the Jewish People were sidelined and marginalized as a people. The Hebrews remained in Egypt for 400 years before returning to their promised inheritance. The Jews in Babylonian Captivity were there for 70 years. Daniel records a period of 70 weeks--of years, I presume--in which Israel waited for an end to their sin. That would amount to 490 years!

    I do not, therefore, believe that the current 2000 year desolation of Israel represents an end to the Jewish People as a godly nation. It is merely the longest and worst period of dispersion in Jewish history--just as Jesus said, incidentally. Paul indicated that this period of Jewish marginalization would, however, serve a good purpose inasmuch as God would then turn to other peoples to approach them with the same kind of offer.

    The gospel is an impartial instrument by which God approaches nations to make this offer of spiritual revitalization. It is a covenant with God, just as the Law was for Israel. Inasmuch as God began with Israel through the Law, we would have to admit that God began with the Jewish People as program of world outreach. But in order to reach the world the Law had to be changed into the Gospel of Christ.

    This is what the Jews reject, even as they indulged in the same old typical rejection of God's laws in favor of their own self-interests. The Jews want to see themselves as exclusively God's People. However, as I said the Gospel is impartial and does not discriminate based on physical ethnicity. This does not, however, mean that national boundaries have ceased. They have not.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    1,451
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Replacement Theology vs. Original Jewish and Christians designations. This is really a war over words. A Jewish Believer is very much a Jew and a Christian. Jews today prefer to designate a "Jew" one who is a Jew religiously. However, everybody knows that there is a physical component to being Jewish. Not only is a Jew designated as such by virtue of being born of a Jewish mother, but he is also assumed to have origins in the ancestry of the original Hebrew patriarchs.

    So, if you want to avoid this confusion over words you may or may not want to avoid terms like "Jewish Christian." To a Jew that is nonsense. That would be, to them an oxymoron.

    However, to the Christian there can indeed be someone of a Jewish ethnic background who becomes a Christian. He would then be of Jewish ethnic background and also a Christian, hence a "Jewish Christian."

    I personally reject Replacement Theology, although it has a long and respectable history in the Church. I do believe the Church gave up hope in the restoration of Israel as a godly nation when it became clear over centuries that the Jewish People would *not* embrace the gospel as a people and as a nation.

    I don't believe the recalcitrance of the Jewish People indicates, however, that Israel will not be restored spiritually and become a Christian nation. This is likely just another long period in which the Jewish People are judged and diminished until they can be restored.

    There have been very long periods in history in which the Jewish People were sidelined and marginalized as a people. The Hebrews remained in Egypt for 400 years before returning to their promised inheritance. The Jews in Babylonian Captivity were there for 70 years. Daniel records a period of 70 weeks--of years, I presume--in which Israel waited for an end to their sin. That would amount to 490 years!

    I do not, therefore, believe that the current 2000 year desolation of Israel represents an end to the Jewish People as a godly nation. It is merely the longest and worst period of dispersion in Jewish history--just as Jesus said, incidentally. Paul indicated that this period of Jewish marginalization would, however, serve a good purpose inasmuch as God would then turn to other peoples to approach them with the same kind of offer.

    The gospel is an impartial instrument by which God approaches nations to make this offer of spiritual revitalization. It is a covenant with God, just as the Law was for Israel. Inasmuch as God began with Israel through the Law, we would have to admit that God began with the Jewish People as program of world outreach. But in order to reach the world the Law had to be changed into the Gospel of Christ.

    This is what the Jews reject, even as they indulged in the same old typical rejection of God's laws in favor of their own self-interests. The Jews want to see themselves as exclusively God's People. However, as I said the Gospel is impartial and does not discriminate based on physical ethnicity. This does not, however, mean that national boundaries have ceased. They have not.
    For the record, I do not believe in "Replacement Theology". However I do see things a little different than some, I think:

    Jesus was a Jew. The 12 disciples Were Jews and Believers. When the Word became Flesh, he came FIRST (but not only) for the Jews, because He wanted to reconcile His Wife back to Himself. She rejected Him and killed Him. So then He THEN sent PAUL (and Peter to some degree) to gather the Gentiles into the Fold. And thus, the Wall between the Jews and Gentiles was removed. But only until the TIME OF THE GENTILES is complete. Then the Jews once again take the spotlight. Jesus will attempt one more time to reconcile the Wife, and She will comply.

  7. #52

    Re: Believing Jews and Israel

    All temple records were destroyed in AD 70 at the sacking of Jerusalem answering to Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 23 to 25 and Luke 11. It is non possumus to determine who is a Hebrew by blood. https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-1-1_1-14/

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 469
    Last Post: Mar 14th 2011, 07:54 AM
  2. Should believing Jews remain Jewish?
    By LookingUp in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 99
    Last Post: Mar 2nd 2011, 06:20 PM
  3. Replies: 244
    Last Post: Jul 14th 2009, 02:28 PM
  4. Believing Jews?
    By ZAB in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 154
    Last Post: May 24th 2009, 05:30 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •