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Thread: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

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    The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Harpazō
    1. to seize, carry off by force
    2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
    3. to snatch out or away
    The KJV translates Strong's G726 in the following manner: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).

    The body of Christ is in such disarray. We grieve the Holy Spirit in our lack of unity constantly. Ah, Lord God, make us one with you!

    I have and seen and heard many who believe have absolutely contradicting ideas of the Future of the Bride and body of Jesus Christ our Lord. Some say the body will always be on the Earth, and others say we must be taken up into heaven then return back to earth. So then what does the Word of God say?

    The overarching theme of the unity in Christ is this: That once Christ returns to us again, we will be with Him forever! For the Word is clear on this:

    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    So how then do we differ on WHERE we are to be with Him forever? Ultimately, all Christians must understand (and most would agree) that the Body will go wherever the Lord Jesus leads, right? As it is written the Lamb will lead those who have been given their robes of righteousness,

    Rev 7: 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

    And does not scripture also tell us,

    Psalms 23:1 The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want. 2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

    Then the question we need to ask, is where will Jesus go in the time of the end? But to start, where is He now?

    We know that while we are in our fleshly body we are absent from the Lord. But if we die, we are confident we will go to be with Him immediately (2 Cor 5:6-8). So then for all of our dead brothers and sisters, it is important to understand where they are. Jesus Himself prophesied of where He would be once He was taken up into heaven.

    Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

    Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


    And if one is so inclined to see this in the Old Testament, we have this:

    Psalm 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    SO then, if the dead in Christ are with the Lord when they are absent from their bodies, then would they not be with the Lord in Heaven, where is commanded to be at the right Hand of God? This makes so much sense in that when Christ returns, he returns to earth WITH THE DEAD!

    1 Thess 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.


    Now we know where we are if we die in Christ Jesus. But what about when He appears (at His coming) with those of us who have died? 1 Thessalonians 4 has been used to “prove” many differing theories. But again, we need to look simply at WHERE Christ will go, to know where the Body will follow, as again, HE LEADS US. For indeed if we are dead, we are led back to the Earth by Him. But then what of us who live?

    Now to the word “Harpazō”. We know this according to the scriptures about “the coming of the Son of man”:

    Mark 13: 24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    Luke 17: 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    1 Thess 4: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


    Now we see that when the Lord Jesus Returns, He will return on clouds (remembering that the dead are with Him up on those clouds). He will also descend from heaven in some manner (most thing that He will not descend all the way to the ground…) Then There will be a shout, a trumpet sound, and there will be a “HARPAZO” (in the sense of Believers being “TAKEN”. Now as seen in Matt 24:29-31, 40-41 & Mark 13:24-27 & Luke 17:34-36, we see a gathering together of the Body into one place… But again, seems a little hazy on WHERE they are gathered… In 1 Thess 4, we get a little more detail.

    1 Thess 4: 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Then in its finality, the gathered dead who have been raised, and the Living who were quickened are gathered “INTO THE CLOUDS” and “IN THE AIR”. For reading the account in the Greek, one sees it is clear that the individuals are TAKEN UP into the Clouds. But I did say “IN ITS FINALITY”… There is actually something that many people do not catch in the Prophecies of Christ’s coming…

    When Christ ascended into Heaven, an Angel prophesied about the return of the Lord saying,

    Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Let me ask you, did Jesus ascend into Heaven on a white horse? Do you see a white horse anywhere in this picture? How then can we say that Jesus “shall so come in like manner” is this:
    Revelation 19: 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    I tell you THIS IS NOT THE SECOND COMING OF THE LORD. At That point, HE WILL HAVE ALREADY COME!

    Jesus’ appearing and coming are indeed in TWO phases. One to come down all the way to the ground and touch His feet on the Mount of Olives. And then again to come down on a White Horse! So then on the Appearing He gathers all the Elect unto Him, and then at then there is a marriage and then He returns on a White Horse with His Bride.

    So now the question is where is the wedding going to take place? Lets look at the scriptures:

    Rev 19: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    So, at the beginning of this chapter we see the scene is one in Heaven. And indeed Jesus is in Heaven at this point, because he rides OUT OF HEAVEN after the supper. And Jesus is the Groom, so He needs to attend the wedding, does He not? And to add to the proof, the 24 Elders and the 4 beasts before the throne of God in Heaven are present. We know these two groups are in Heaven when looking at the scene of Heaven in Revelation 4. If you want to know what some of Heaven looks like, study that Chapter!

    Now then we see this: First the Lord comes, and in the manner He left, He returns. From the ground up was caught up, and from the sky down He will return, not on a Horse, but standing on the clouds. (He did walk on water… So what is it that he walks on water vapors?) On His way down He has all the Believers gathered together ON THE EARTH before Him into the Valley of Decision. He will then help the Israelites escape from Jerusalem, the little remnant that is left. (They will look upon Him who they pierced and will mourn greatly.) And then He will judge the Elect (only those who believe on the name of Jesus Christ) by their Works. Those who are found worthy will then be “HARPAZO”, caught up in to the Clouds to be with Him forever. Those who are not worthy by the works of their Heart will be left behind to be tried by fire.

    And those that ascended will be with the Lord for approximately 3.5 years, but before the wedding, and after the 70th week has completed, Jesus will gather up the 144,000 (some of whom were left behind for 3.5 years), and He will also gather the Saints that were left behind and were refined by the fire. These will be blessed in theat they did not love their lives unto the death, and did not take the Mark of the Beast. Once all three of these groups (The Elect at His coming, the 144,000-Woman, and the SOULS of the beheaded) are present in Heaven with the Groom, the wedding can begin. So then the supper, a great Feast in Heaven. But also at that time will be a GREAT coronation of Jesus Christ as the King of Earth. So then Christ will be the King of Earth, and the Father is and was and shall forever be the God of all. Then we all get on Horses (except the beheaded souls who do not yet have bodies…) and return with Christ back to earth. Christ will subdue and kill all His enemies, as we may even help Him. Then His earthly reign will begin at the time He completes the 1st resurrection, where the souls of the beheaded will be raised into their quickened bodies, and will reign with Him for 1000 years.

    Any questions?

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Nope Jesus dňes not return twice. When He comes on a horse it is still through the air. You need to see as Elisha saw. Horses flying through the clouds. So the manner is the same, though Him on a horse speaks as coming as conquering King.

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    1st let me say that the "taken and left" passage in the Olivet Discourse I take differently than you do. I view it as the Romans coming to "take some" and to "leave others." Some are taken in captivity, and some are taken in death. Others are left to manage the fields and to pay tribute. None of this has to do, I think, with the Rapture of the Church, contrary to popular theory.

    Apart from that these are my thoughts on "where the body is." At Christ's 2nd Advent he will "raise from the dead" his saints. This will not be a resurrection of the old body in the grave, since that has dissolved back into the elements, and may in fact have been reconstituted into other bodies.

    Rather, the resurrection of the dead saints is actually the reconstitution of our body using brand new elements. It is a completely new body given us from heaven, because it is fashioned into the likeness of our Lord in heaven. The only reason it is called a "resurrection" is because it is a reconstitution of a body that belongs to us who use to have another body.

    As to the Rapture/Harpazo of the living saints, this is a dissolution of the body simultaneous with the appropriation of an entirely new body, just like the deceased saints and their resurrection. And so, these living saints are being depicted as being "caught up" in a "seizure." It is almost a "violent" kind of seizure of our old body so as to dissolve that body in preparation for a new body obtained from heaven.

    I like to argue that the "2 Witnesses" cannot be either Elijah or Enoch because even those these two were "raptured" up to heaven alive, they obviously had their bodies vaporized in the ascent! Can you imagine mortal bodies enduring in heaven for thousands of years? Mortal bodies do not do that! Not only would they be unable to withstand the friction of an instant ascent, but neither could they live in space! And, as I said, mortal bodies do not live long, especially without food and water!

    So that's why I think the word "harpazo" is used, to indicate a kind of violent seizure. It is to remove the old body from the living saints at the 2nd Coming of Christ. It is certainly not to preserve our old body, since the whole purpose is to obtain a new immortal body!

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope Jesus dňes not return twice. When He comes on a horse it is still through the air. You need to see as Elisha saw. Horses flying through the clouds. So the manner is the same, though Him on a horse speaks as coming as conquering King.
    Please provide Scriptures to back up your statement. I did.

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    1st let me say that the "taken and left" passage in the Olivet Discourse I take differently than you do. I view it as the Romans coming to "take some" and to "leave others." Some are taken in captivity, and some are taken in death. Others are left to manage the fields and to pay tribute. None of this has to do, I think, with the Rapture of the Church, contrary to popular theory.
    But then, where in the previous text of Matt 24 does it mention armies "taking" anyone? Why would Jesus just spit out some odd thing in the midst of a in-depth text about His coming? Where does that idea fit? It does not. The previous mention of gathering is of ANGELS. And Roman soldiers WERE NOT SENT BY CHRIST! I am so sorry Randy, but your argument holds no water.

    Show me in scripture where you can connect "one was taken and the other left" with an army taking Jews away, please. Wouldn't all of them be taken? Didn't all the Jews flee from Jerusalem?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Apart from that these are my thoughts on "where the body is." At Christ's 2nd Advent he will "raise from the dead" his saints. This will not be a resurrection of the old body in the grave, since that has dissolved back into the elements, and may in fact have been reconstituted into other bodies.
    It will be what it will be. And I am not entirely sure how it will work. Al I know is that it will somehow work according to 1 Cor 15. However I look forward to a body that has these qualities:

    Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    Rev 7:6 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Rather, the resurrection of the dead saints is actually the reconstitution of our body using brand new elements. It is a completely new body given us from heaven, because it is fashioned into the likeness of our Lord in heaven. The only reason it is called a "resurrection" is because it is a reconstitution of a body that belongs to us who use to have another body.
    We do not see eye to eye here I am afraid.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    If Christ is DESCENDED when we are raised from the dead, then we are not in heaven yet... He brings the dead SPIRIT with Him. I believe that Christ will use the particles of our original FLESH and constitute them into a new Spiritual body, being Flesh and Spirit... Or then why even exist from the beginning in the Flesh? Does not our Spirit reside with our flesh even now?

    Jesus only brings SPIRIT back with Him. He does not bring FLESH. FLESH is in the Grave. SPIRIT is in the heavens. So then, when they MIX, they cleave together and are ONE FLESH.

    Jesus, the perfect man, should have been born in His glorified body then, if you are correct. Jesus was born from heaven, was He not? Yet HE WAS FLESH. And He died. And He was in the Grave, and even under the depths of the earth in Paradise. He did not first ascend into Heaven! He first took the sins of the World to the Grave. And 8 days after His resurrection from the dead (an example of our resurrection), He was touched of by Thomas, and did eat and drink. Flesh, because He does not need to eat, yet can, and Spirit because He appeared and disappeared. A Spirit can not wear clothes. A Spirit can not eat.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As to the Rapture/Harpazo of the living saints, this is a dissolution of the body simultaneous with the appropriation of an entirely new body, just like the deceased saints and their resurrection. And so, these living saints are being depicted as being "caught up" in a "seizure." It is almost a "violent" kind of seizure of our old body so as to dissolve that body in preparation for a new body obtained from heaven.
    The old testament saints have not been resurrected yet... If they have I need proof texts please... I agree however, that their SPIRIT has been taken up into heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I like to argue that the "2 Witnesses" cannot be either Elijah or Enoch because even those these two were "raptured" up to heaven alive, they obviously had their bodies vaporized in the ascent! Can you imagine mortal bodies enduring in heaven for thousands of years? Mortal bodies do not do that! Not only would they be unable to withstand the friction of an instant ascent, but neither could they live in space! And, as I said, mortal bodies do not live long, especially without food and water!
    If they were indeed taken into heaven (in a fleshly body), and we know that all flesh is stained with Sin, and God abhors sin, then they MUST have been transformed into their GLORIFIED BODIES upon their ascension.

    Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    "TRANSLATED" means to be "CHANGED" and to be "TRANSFERRED", so then it fits in both cases, just as the Living who is QUICKENED into a new body will be TRANSLATED into Heaven.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So that's why I think the word "harpazo" is used, to indicate a kind of violent seizure. It is to remove the old body from the living saints at the 2nd Coming of Christ. It is certainly not to preserve our old body, since the whole purpose is to obtain a new immortal body!
    How violent can something that happens this fast be?

    1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    You are way off on this whole subject, dear brother... Sorry...

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Please provide Scriptures to back up your statement. I did.
    The point I made is your scripture didn't support your statement. Instead you claim that being on a horse means He is not returning in the same manner. However the manner is that of ascending and descending which ovcurs.
    Moreover when His return is stated as His Second Coming it refers to His coming to defeat His enemies as seen in Rev 19.

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope Jesus dňes not return twice. When He comes on a horse it is still through the air. You need to see as Elisha saw. Horses flying through the clouds. So the manner is the same, though Him on a horse speaks as coming as conquering King.

    The point I made is your scripture didn't support your statement. Instead you claim that being on a horse means He is not returning in the same manner. However the manner is that of ascending and descending which ovcurs.
    Moreover when His return is stated as His Second Coming it refers to His coming to defeat His enemies as seen in Rev 19.
    Lets look at this again:

    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


    Do you agree that Jesus was asked about His coming Reign as King right before He ascended into Heaven?

    Did He answer, "My Second Coming refers to My coming to defeat My enemies" here? OR, Did He say, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."?

    It was not for them to know, but now the Lord is telling you, "This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    They knew that Jesus was supposed to reign as the Messiah and as King. But When will Messiah Reign?

    Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    Again, they knew that the Psalms said He would ONLY rule after THE FATHER makes the enemies of the Lord, His footstool... And in footstool, He means ARMAGEDDON. In this I agree with you.

    But then, the Angels said Christ will descend AS he ascended... Not in the "general idea of the ascension", BUT IN THE LIKE MANNER. In modern English, we say "exactly like it". If I say, "In this manner I hit the button", then hit the button with my pinkey finger, you should expect that if I want you to do something in the same manner, you would use you pinkey finger, right? But if you hit the button with the nose of a white horse, I would say, "What on earth were you thinking?"

    So then, If Christ ascended while "STANDING" in front of me, He WILL return STANDING. So then there is this also,

    Jesus was presented to John at in the Revelation that He Himself gave him in Chapter 5. An Elder proclaimed that the LION was to come. Just as the Old Testament Speaks of a LION, and He certainly wields a sword for destruction. BUT, when John sees the "LION", He is a slaughtered Lamb... NOT A LION.

    Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    In like manner, the Lord will first come (the second time) as a LAMB, then a LION. Now I know what you are going to say. "This is about the coming of Jesus the First time, not the second." That is wrong, and here is why:

    What is the Lamb doing in that slaughtered state? Is he not opening the seven seals of the end time revelation? Look:

    Revelation 6:And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

    So in the next five openings, "HE opened" refers to the Lamb. The Lamb is not the LION until He is crowned KING. And here we see that Jesus, when He leaves Heaven THE SECOND TIME (at His 2nd coming),

    Rev 14:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God... 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.


    So then when did He receive the Crown to His Kingship? AFTER the Father poured out the BOWLS OF WRATH (Rev 16). That event dis-thrones all earthly Kings, thus allowing this to be fulfilled:

    Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    Only AFTER all the "beasts" dominions are taken away, ONLY THEN, can Jesus be crowned King of the Earth.

    So then Jesus does indeed Come ONCE, but descends twice... I recommend that you now know this, you re-read my original post. Then ask me how Jesus can come once and descend Twice according to scripture.

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Harpazō
    1. to seize, carry off by force
    2. to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
    3. to snatch out or away
    The KJV translates Strong's G726 in the following manner: catch up (4x), take by force (3x), catch away (2x), pluck (2x), catch (1x), pull (1x).

    The body of Christ is in such disarray. We grieve the Holy Spirit in our lack of unity constantly. Ah, Lord God, make us one with you!

    I have and seen and heard many who believe have absolutely contradicting ideas of the Future of the Bride and body of Jesus Christ our Lord. Some say the body will always be on the Earth, and others say we must be taken up into heaven then return back to earth. So then what does the Word of God say?

    The overarching theme of the unity in Christ is this: That once Christ returns to us again, we will be with Him forever! For the Word is clear on this:

    1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    So how then do we differ on WHERE we are to be with Him forever? Ultimately, all Christians must understand (and most would agree) that the Body will go wherever the Lord Jesus leads, right? As it is written the Lamb will lead those who have been given their robes of righteousness,

    ...

    Any questions?
    I will only answer this because it is your premise. If the premise is cast into doubt the rest of the thesis fails. It all hangs on one phrase;

    "... and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
    The word "so" here, because of the context, means "in this manner". The context is; "shall those who have fallen asleep in Christ be forgotten, or disadvantaged because they were not alive at the rapture?" The answer is NO! The dead will RISE (from Hades) first to the surface of the earth in their resurrection bodies, then those alive will be changed into their resurrection bodies in the twinkling of an eye (1st Cor.15:51-52), and TOGETHER, in that manner or state, be with the Lord. It does not point to "being with the Lord forever in the air and the clouds". Other scripture refute this like Revelation 19 where it is clear that those with white robes return to earth to fight Armageddon. So also Zechariah 14:5 and Jude 1:14.

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I will only answer this because it is your premise. If the premise is cast into doubt the rest of the thesis fails. It all hangs on one phrase;



    The word "so" here, because of the context, means "in this manner". The context is; "shall those who have fallen asleep in Christ be forgotten, or disadvantaged because they were not alive at the rapture?" The answer is NO! The dead will RISE (from Hades) first to the surface of the earth in their resurrection bodies, then those alive will be changed into their resurrection bodies in the twinkling of an eye (1st Cor.15:51-52), and TOGETHER, in that manner or state, be with the Lord. It does not point to "being with the Lord forever in the air and the clouds". Other scripture refute this like Revelation 19 where it is clear that those with white robes return to earth to fight Armageddon. So also Zechariah 14:5 and Jude 1:14.
    We will not be with the Lord in the Heavens forever... That is not what I was pointing out... We will "SO" be with the Lord FOREVER, no matter where He is. I agree that the dead will not be "disadvantaged because they were not alive at the rapture." I agree that the "dead will RISE" (from the Grave - hadēs) "to the surface of the earth in their resurrection bodies". And I believe that "those alive will be changed into their resurrection bodies in the twinkling of an eye." All these I stated in the text.

    I did not say, "being with the Lord forever in the air and the clouds". What I said was "caught up in to the Clouds to be with Him forever." So then if I said it your way, it would be that we would be in the clouds forever! BUT I SAID IT THE LORD'S WAY! This is the same way we twist scripture brother! Be careful!

    As that the Word of the Lord given here said, "caught up in to the Clouds to be with Him forever", then IF HE DESCENDS AGAIN, we will be with Him ON THE EARTH... You made a grave mistake my friend. And this is the same error many of us make.

    So then, WHEN Jesus descends, after taking us up onto the Clouds, we will live on earth with Him. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Oh, oops... Jesus just said we would be in heaven with Him... BUT I TELL YOU WE WILL BE ON EARTH AFTER THIS, for He will reign on EARTH.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    And we will be with Him WHEREVER HE GOES... So then after He destroys at Armageddon, if He is on the earth reigning with the Beheaded who are given new bodies, we too will be with Him.

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Yep He came first time as Lamb Second time as Lion. Note in Rev He looks like a slain Lamb yet IS the Lion. The scroll occurs BEFORE His Second Coming. You seem to havem happening after.

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    We will not be with the Lord in the Heavens forever... That is not what I was pointing out... We will "SO" be with the Lord FOREVER, no matter where He is. I agree that the dead will not be "disadvantaged because they were not alive at the rapture." I agree that the "dead will RISE" (from the Grave - hadēs) "to the surface of the earth in their resurrection bodies". And I believe that "those alive will be changed into their resurrection bodies in the twinkling of an eye." All these I stated in the text.

    I did not say, "being with the Lord forever in the air and the clouds". What I said was "caught up in to the Clouds to be with Him forever." So then if I said it your way, it would be that we would be in the clouds forever! BUT I SAID IT THE LORD'S WAY! This is the same way we twist scripture brother! Be careful!

    As that the Word of the Lord given here said, "caught up in to the Clouds to be with Him forever", then IF HE DESCENDS AGAIN, we will be with Him ON THE EARTH... You made a grave mistake my friend. And this is the same error many of us make.

    So then, WHEN Jesus descends, after taking us up onto the Clouds, we will live on earth with Him. John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. Oh, oops... Jesus just said we would be in heaven with Him... BUT I TELL YOU WE WILL BE ON EARTH AFTER THIS, for He will reign on EARTH.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    And we will be with Him WHEREVER HE GOES... So then after He destroys at Armageddon, if He is on the earth reigning with the Beheaded who are given new bodies, we too will be with Him.
    OK: Thanks for the clarification. We agree then. Our Lord Jesus makes ONE journey from "above the highest heaven" where He is now seated "at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Eph.4:10; Heb.1:3, 8:1). He descends, passing through the upper atmosphere then into the clouds, which we know form the lower atmosphere or troposphere. Once hidden in the clouds, our Lord will command His angels to "gather" us into the air for the Bema - the traveling Judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). Then, with the judgement completed, we will DESCEND with an already DESCENDING Christ, to join the Battle of Armageddon ON EARTH in the valley of Jezreel.

    • The "coming" of Christ will be ONE JOURNEY from the highest heavens to earth, with a pause in the clouds to judge us.
    • Our "catching away" (Harpazo - Gk.) is to the clouds for judgement. Then we return to earth to fight first at Armageddon, and then take up rule of the nations - city by city (Lk.19:17-19) - which will have been decided at the Bema.

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK: Thanks for the clarification. We agree then. Our Lord Jesus makes ONE journey from "above the highest heaven" where He is now seated "at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Eph.4:10; Heb.1:3, 8:1). He descends, passing through the upper atmosphere then into the clouds, which we know form the lower atmosphere or troposphere. Once hidden in the clouds, our Lord will command His angels to "gather" us into the air for the Bema - the traveling Judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). Then, with the judgement completed, we will DESCEND with an already DESCENDING Christ, to join the Battle of Armageddon ON EARTH in the valley of Jezreel.

    • The "coming" of Christ will be ONE JOURNEY from the highest heavens to earth, with a pause in the clouds to judge us.
    • Our "catching away" (Harpazo - Gk.) is to the clouds for judgement. Then we return to earth to fight first at Armageddon, and then take up rule of the nations - city by city (Lk.19:17-19) - which will have been decided at the Bema.
    Yes, your understating is mine in that Christ returns once in where He receives His Bride into the clouds, then returns from the clouds with His bride after a time, with two slight differences... Heaven will literately bow down to earth, so us going into the clouds is us going into the Kingdom of Heaven. And this, you (as did I until very recently) believe Jesus can not touch the earth more than once. Why do we think that?

    Let me show something using a parable.

    A boy's best friend was born in his house. The boy grew up with his friend, and then the friend had to leave on a long journey and go to his house. So the friend told the boy that he would be back, and to watch for him. The friend also said His return would be a surprise, and that he needed to be ready for him. Now, when the friend walked out the front door, he reached up into the sky and suddenly was taken up out of view of the Boy, so the boy did not understand how he did that.

    Many years passed and the boy became tired and slept and did not watch for his friend every day like he was supposed to. When he slept, he would dream of his friend riding up to his house on a white horse, stepping off and coming into his house to say. He knew that since the friend had to ride a long distance, he would stay there for good. He would dream that before his friend got off the horse, he called the boy to ride with him, and they rode around the neighborhood together for hours and had a wonderful reunion on the horse. But as evening came, the friend's house was so far away, it was needful that they resided in the boys house. So then the friend tied up the horse and went into the house where the boy lived. Then the boy woke up.

    He realized that the season had come for His friend to return so he started to look out the window of his house. And he saw the sun and moon darkened and wondered at the sight. He went out to the porch and saw something was blocking the sun! There was a loud roar and a sound of a trumpet, and then he saw what all the commotion was! The Friend had returned in a BLIMP! and the Blimp was now hovering over His house. He could see the Friend and His father in the front window of the house of the Blimp. As a rope was lowered with the friend attached, he now understood how the boy ascended from his sight when he had left. The Father had pulled him up into His house, the blimp, when he left!

    The Friend touched the ground and said to the boy, "come into my FATHERS house and let's have supper together!" So the Friend grabbed the boy and caught him up into the Blimp. They ate together in the beautiful Blimp and rejoiced together. The the Friend showed the boy His Flying Pegasus and one also for his friend. After some time, they flew together on the white horses to the boy's house and both went in to where the boy and the Friend would stay.
    So then, Heaven will come to earth, and the Father and the Son in Sion. Jesus will come down 3.5 years (approx) before He returns on a white horse, and gather His Bride. He will judge them on the earth and those found worthy by their works will be taken up into heaven. They will marry Him, and have a great supper, then ride back down and watch Jesus destroy His enemies.

    I know this is a hard saying, but I have been showing scripture to support these seemingly wild claims. Remember that when Paul brought the mystery of the salvation of the Gentiles to the disciples, they were perplexed, and did not receive his ministry directly. He was a killer of Christians teaching them the scriptures... I know how he felt, but I am certainly not as learned as Paul was...

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK: Thanks for the clarification. We agree then. Our Lord Jesus makes ONE journey from "above the highest heaven" where He is now seated "at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Eph.4:10; Heb.1:3, 8:1). He descends, passing through the upper atmosphere then into the clouds, which we know form the lower atmosphere or troposphere. Once hidden in the clouds, our Lord will command His angels to "gather" us into the air for the Bema - the traveling Judgement Seat of Christ (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). Then, with the judgement completed, we will DESCEND with an already DESCENDING Christ, to join the Battle of Armageddon ON EARTH in the valley of Jezreel.

    • The "coming" of Christ will be ONE JOURNEY from the highest heavens to earth, with a pause in the clouds to judge us.
    • Our "catching away" (Harpazo - Gk.) is to the clouds for judgement. Then we return to earth to fight first at Armageddon, and then take up rule of the nations - city by city (Lk.19:17-19) - which will have been decided at the Bema.
    John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

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    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Yes, your understating is mine in that Christ returns once in where He receives His Bride into the clouds, then returns from the clouds with His bride after a time, with two slight differences... Heaven will literately bow down to earth, so us going into the clouds is us going into the Kingdom of Heaven. And this, you (as did I until very recently) believe Jesus can not touch the earth more than once. Why do we think that?

    Let me show something using a parable.



    So then, Heaven will come to earth, and the Father and the Son in Sion. Jesus will come down 3.5 years (approx) before He returns on a white horse, and gather His Bride. He will judge them on the earth and those found worthy by their works will be taken up into heaven. They will marry Him, and have a great supper, then ride back down and watch Jesus destroy His enemies.

    I know this is a hard saying, but I have been showing scripture to support these seemingly wild claims. Remember that when Paul brought the mystery of the salvation of the Gentiles to the disciples, they were perplexed, and did not receive his ministry directly. He was a killer of Christians teaching them the scriptures... I know how he felt, but I am certainly not as learned as Paul was...
    OK. Without taking up any one of your points, I would like to lay down my understanding of the matter. I will change the order of the title of the thread so that some information does not have to be given twice.

    The Bride.
    It is noteworthy that although the Wedding FEAST is spoken of at least three times, twice in parable in Matthew 22 and 25, and once in Revelation 19, the Bride is not mentioned in Matthew. It only addresses the guests. That is, the guests are the object of the parables and not the Bride. The question is, why? It is this. In Ephesians 5:27 we learn, "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." And it is obvious from all the warnings to the Church, and the Parables concerning the servants and the Virgins, that when Christ returns at the end of this age there will be a huge number of Christians ...
    • NOT a glorious church
    • Having spots
    • Having wrinkles,
    • NOT holy
    • NOT without blemish

    Even if we just take the seven letters to the seven Churches in Revelation Chapter 2 to 3, we see that the MAJORITY are apostate and the MINORITY are found worthy. So one thing is clear. The end of this age IS NOT THE TIME WHEN THE BRIDE IS READY.

    But she is mentioned in Revelation 19. How can we explain that? It is this. When God wants to do a work among fallen men, He allows a REMNANT to represent men. He used 8 men and women at Noah's time to save the human race. He would have saved Sodom for a small remnant (Genesis 18). In Deuteronomy 30:1-5 God predicts that He will use a Remnant who turn back to the Law to restore Israel, and they are mentioned in Romans 9:27 and 11:5 and sealed in Revelation 7. When Israel failed He raised up a Judges - a minority. When they failed, He raised up prophets. And when they failed He raised up the Rite of the Nazerite. That is, God will allow a REMNANT to represent the whole people.

    Now in Revelation 19, the "white garments" are the "righteousness of the saints" - not the "righteousness of God" that we read of so much in Romans. That is imputed to us. The "righteousness of the saints" is what they did in their Christian walk. But we know that the majority of Christians will have been judged UNRIGHTEOUS (e.g. the 7 Churches of Revelation, Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5). So the Bride of Revelation 19 is NOT ALL CHRISTIANS. It is a REPRESENTATIVE BRIDE. A vast majority of Christians will need more time and more chastisement to become "... a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." The Bride of Revelation 19 is a REMNANT - A REPRESENTATIVE Bride. She stands for all Christians but ALL Christians are not ready. The Bride is only ready at the END of the Millennium, so she is presented in all her heavenly glory in Revelation 21:1-2 - that is, AFTER THE MILLENNIUM.

    The Groom.
    God has decreed a Wedding Feast for His beloved Son. God will (1) not be thwarted, and (2) not allow His Son to be robbed of His pleasure because of some slothful Christians. So the Wedding Feast takes place with only those Christians who were found righteous. Those with the wrong "Garment" are not allowed in, and those Virgins without oil in their Vessels (not Lamps) banished. But the Wedding Feast takes place anyway, albeit without some of the Bride. The Lord has His "joy" in the righteous and diligent servants (Matt.25:21, 23). It is sad that so many Christians are slothful, sinful and not worthy of their Lord when He comes, but our Lord is not robbed of His "joy". That is supplied by the REMNANT who were righteous.

    The "Harpazo".
    The "catching away" serves TWO purposes.
    1. It is meant as an escape for the Christians living at the time of the Great Tribulation (Lk.21:36; Rev.3:10). It is a place of escape so that they can NOT be present for the "hour" that is to cause trial to all men on earth, and so that they "can stand before Christ" in safety.
    2. Christ takes His Church aside to Judge them FIRST (1st Pet.4:17) before He judges Israel and the nations. Thus the throne our Lord Jesus uses is not a "Thronos" like Matthew 25:31, but a "Bema" - a traveling throne used during His travel from the highest heaven to earth.

    The "air" and the "clouds" are NOT meant to be our final place because man was made for the earth. God made man to rule the earth and its environs of sea and sky and all that is in them (Gen.1:26-28). And He has never changed that purpose. See the promise Abraham in Genesis, which is expanded to the whole earth in Romans 4:13. See Psalm 8:4-8 and Hebrews 2:5-8. See Psalm 37:11 and Matthew 5:5. See Luke 19:17-19 and Revelation 2:26-27. Far from any absurd talk of man going to heaven, the overcoming Christians will RULE ON EARTH. To even imply anything else is a deep insult to God Who cannot be put off His councils (Dan.4:34-35). God made man to rule the earth and that is what the overcoming Christian will end up doing. So at the end of the Great Tribulation, the Lord descends from the clouds with His army of angels and overcoming Christians, and they fight the Beast and his army at Jezreel. Then He sets up His throne ("Thronos" - Gk.) ON EARTH to judge the nations including the nation of Israel.

    The "Harpazo" is a TEMPORARY SOLUTION to get Christ's Church ASIDE for safety and judgement.

  15. #15

    Re: The Groom, the Bride and the Harpazo

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    But then, where in the previous text of Matt 24 does it mention armies "taking" anyone? Why would Jesus just spit out some odd thing in the midst of a in-depth text about His coming? Where does that idea fit? It does not. The previous mention of gathering is of ANGELS. And Roman soldiers WERE NOT SENT BY CHRIST! I am so sorry Randy, but your argument holds no water.
    In any discourse the critical thing is to determine the main idea, and only afterwards to determine any order of explanation. Juxtaposition and sequence are important, but it really depends on the main idea. In this case, the main idea concerns the destruction of the temple, which we agree took place in 70 AD when the Romans overcame Jerusalem. This was clearly a military situation, which is what you were asking about. It was not primarily about when Christ was coming, although that was indeed a secondary idea. But it was primarily about when Jerusalem would be overcome. And Jesus' answer was that it would take place in his own generation, which we now know happened in 70 AD.

    Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


    So all of my arguments here are premised on this fact, that the main idea of the discourse involved the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, and the disciples' question: When will this happen? And it involved Jesus' answer, that it would take place in their own generation, which we know took place in 70 AD.

    So you *cannot* say I'm wrong about that! Beyond that we're just talking about all of the little things Jesus said about this event, about the events leading up to it, and the events following it. There is no doubt that a secondary issue involved when Jesus was coming again. So when we consider all of these elements, and the sequence in which they were discussed, we have to keep these things in mind.

    Your argument is that the "one taken and one left" passage follows discussion of the 2nd Coming. And that could be critical except for the fact we must keep in mind what the main idea is, which is when the destruction of Jerusalem is going to take place. Discussion of Jesus' Coming was also being discussed, but it was not the primary idea. And so, going back to discussion of the 70 AD event, immediately after discussing the return of Jesus, is not a critical matter. Rather, it is very normal to discuss peripheral events, and immediately return to the main event, which was the 70 AD event.

    Luke 21.29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

    32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

    34 “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”


    Immediately after discussing his 2nd Coming Jesus here returns to the main idea, namely the imminent destruction of Jerusalem. He is telling his disciples that while they keep one eye on his return they should also keep the other eye focused on what is about to transpire in their own generation!

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith
    Show me in scripture where you can connect "one was taken and the other left" with an army taking Jews away, please. Wouldn't all of them be taken? Didn't all the Jews flee from Jerusalem?
    Luke separates the Olivet Discourse into two sections, ch. 17 and ch. 21, with some intervening information. The "one taken and one left" passage is in ch. 17, and relates, I believe, to the ch. 21 account of the Romans taking Jerusalem. In the other related accounts in the synoptic gospels, Matthew 24 and Mark 13, the Discourse is all taking place at one time. Luke simply divides up some of the elements of this discourse to make it clear that although the elements may involve eschatology the primary concern was to be on current events.

    In ch. 17 Jesus argues that even though the Kingdom of God has yet to come, it is already a current issue. It is "in their midst!" That means that not only were the disciples to look forward to the coming Kingdom, but they were already subject to the constraints of the Kingdom, which is to face tribulation and military conflict with the right spirit.

    And so, Jesus goes on to explain to them that expectation of the coming Kingdom is not to be like the Jews had been expecting it, as a great deliverance from enemy nations, while their own nation remained steeped in sin. Jesus' Coming would take place like lightning to judge, and would not be a peaceful transition, with the Lord simply eliminating all of their enemies. Rather, the Jewish People would remain intransigent, requiring that judgment also fall upon Israel. And this would take place imminently, and not in the eschatological future. If Jesus' Coming would be like lightning, so would be the judgment to come imminently upon Israel!

    It is then that Jesus described how the Jewish People were utterly unprepared for this judgment, just as the people in Noah's Day were unprepared for the Flood. They were so steeped in sin that they were blind to their own wickedness, and instead only saw their enemies as wicked and deserving of divine judgment.

    And Jesus showed that just as he would come in judgment upon unsuspecting people at his Coming so would a day of judgment fall upon Israel imminently, who likewise were unsuspecting of divine judgment.

    Luke 17.26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

    28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

    30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day no one who is on the housetop, with possessions inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32 Remember Lot’s wife! 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”

    37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

    He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”


    Jesus here compared the Day of his Coming with the Day of the imminent Roman Invasion, which took place in 70 AD. In both cases the people were unprepared due to their sin, the nations at Christ's Coming, and Israel at his 1st Coming. Jesus was sort of blending the two comings together, to show that he came to bring not just salvation but judgment, to destroy those who remained committed to their sins.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith
    It will be what it will be. And I am not entirely sure how it will work. Al I know is that it will somehow work according to 1 Cor 15. However I look forward to a body that has these qualities:

    Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    Rev 7:6 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.


    We do not see eye to eye here I am afraid.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    If Christ is DESCENDED when we are raised from the dead, then we are not in heaven yet... He brings the dead SPIRIT with Him. I believe that Christ will use the particles of our original FLESH and constitute them into a new Spiritual body, being Flesh and Spirit... Or then why even exist from the beginning in the Flesh? Does not our Spirit reside with our flesh even now?

    Jesus only brings SPIRIT back with Him. He does not bring FLESH. FLESH is in the Grave. SPIRIT is in the heavens. So then, when they MIX, they cleave together and are ONE FLESH.

    Jesus, the perfect man, should have been born in His glorified body then, if you are correct. Jesus was born from heaven, was He not? Yet HE WAS FLESH. And He died. And He was in the Grave, and even under the depths of the earth in Paradise. He did not first ascend into Heaven! He first took the sins of the World to the Grave. And 8 days after His resurrection from the dead (an example of our resurrection), He was touched of by Thomas, and did eat and drink. Flesh, because He does not need to eat, yet can, and Spirit because He appeared and disappeared. A Spirit can not wear clothes. A Spirit can not eat.

    The old testament saints have not been resurrected yet... If they have I need proof texts please... I agree however, that their SPIRIT has been taken up into heaven.

    If they were indeed taken into heaven (in a fleshly body), and we know that all flesh is stained with Sin, and God abhors sin, then they MUST have been transformed into their GLORIFIED BODIES upon their ascension.

    Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    "TRANSLATED" means to be "CHANGED" and to be "TRANSFERRED", so then it fits in both cases, just as the Living who is QUICKENED into a new body will be TRANSLATED into Heaven.



    How violent can something that happens this fast be?

    1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    You are way off on this whole subject, dear brother... Sorry...
    Your argument seems to be that resurrection can only mean a revival of the elements from the original body. That isn't, in my opinion, a strong argument, since both can happen, and both did happen. Jesus was raised up in the elements of his original flesh, as were those raised from the dead prior to that, such as Lazarus. That does not mean that a future resurrection cannot happen in which the spirits of dead people can assume an *entirely new glorified body.*

    If you will notice Jesus, when he rose from the dead, arose in his original body. But he told his followers not to detain him because he had to go to heaven, to God, to receive his glorified body. In the same way, departed saints in the past may have arisen in their old bodies. But they had to die again. They will only obtain eternal life physically when they go to heaven to obtain new glorified bodies.

    To "rise up from our graves" is metaphorical for me. We actually obtain our glorified bodies in heaven, before we descend with Christ from the clouds. It simply means that although our corpses were left in the ground we will rise to new life together with the living saints who are seized up to heaven to obtain new glorified bodies.

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