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Thread: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

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    Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Doing a word search for prince in the KJV with Case sensitive checked, the following 5 passages show up in the results. So keep in mind, this OP has to do with when the KJV translators specifically put prince in capital letters, not at the beginning of a sentence, but further within a sentence. Such as the below passages show.


    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



    1...The Prince of Peace.

    2...the Messiah the Prince

    3...the Prince of life

    4...a Prince and a Saviour

    If these titles are all referring to Christ, where very few would even dare dispute, though there unfortunately are a few who would dispute
    2 in the list, how can this not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the following is referring to Christ as well?

    5....the Prince of princes


    Yet some around here will tell us this is not referring to Christ. How many princes in Scripture does one know about where all of the following fit that prince, the Prince of Peace, the Messiah the Prince, the Prince of life, a Prince and a Saviour? Seriously then, and very seriously at that at, how can this not add up to Christ then being the Prince of princes?


    The main reason some dispute Daniel 8:25 being about Christ, is because if it is about Christ, it shows their overall interpretation of Dan 8 to be nonsensical. Doesn't mean their entire interpretation of Dan 8 is nonsensical, but that when in gets to verse 9, their interpretation is proven to be nonsensical according to verse 25. If the little horn shall also stand up against Christ, obviously it has to be meaning a time after Christ has come first, and not a time preceding it instead. Then anyone also using the NT to help shed light on things, would know from that testament as to the timing of when the little horn shall stand up against Christ, and then shall be broken without hand. As to the latter, for those who might not be grasping the time of being broken without hand, it seems to be meaning the following.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


    The text says the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive. There you go then, they are both still alive when cast into the LOF, which seems to equal being broken without hand. On a side note: apparently then, the little horn may not necessarily be meaning a single individual like many assume. Maybe, maybe not, something to ponder is all.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Doing a word search for prince in the KJV with Case sensitive checked, the following 5 passages show up in the results. So keep in mind, this OP has to do with when the KJV translators specifically put prince in capital letters, not at the beginning of a sentence, but further within a sentence. Such as the below passages show.


    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



    1...The Prince of Peace.

    2...the Messiah the Prince

    3...the Prince of life

    4...a Prince and a Saviour

    If these titles are all referring to Christ, where very few would even dare dispute, though there unfortunately are a few who would dispute
    2 in the list, how can this not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the following is referring to Christ as well?

    5....the Prince of princes


    Yet some around here will tell us this is not referring to Christ. How many princes in Scripture does one know about where all of the following fit that prince, the Prince of Peace, the Messiah the Prince, the Prince of life, a Prince and a Saviour? Seriously then, and very seriously at that at, how can this not add up to Christ then being the Prince of princes?


    The main reason some dispute Daniel 8:25 being about Christ, is because if it is about Christ, it shows their overall interpretation of Dan 8 to be nonsensical. Doesn't mean their entire interpretation of Dan 8 is nonsensical, but that when in gets to verse 9, their interpretation is proven to be nonsensical according to verse 25. If the little horn shall also stand up against Christ, obviously it has to be meaning a time after Christ has come first, and not a time preceding it instead. Then anyone also using the NT to help shed light on things, would know from that testament as to the timing of when the little horn shall stand up against Christ, and then shall be broken without hand. As to the latter, for those who might not be grasping the time of being broken without hand, it seems to be meaning the following.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


    The text says the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive. There you go then, they are both still alive when cast into the LOF, which seems to equal being broken without hand. On a side note: apparently then, the little horn may not necessarily be meaning a single individual like many assume. Maybe, maybe not, something to ponder is all.
    First, let me commend you for taking the time to research Biblical references to Jesus the Messiah. I am 100% with you on this. It has always been my argument that whether Hebrew language has capital letters or not, I trust the linguistic knowledge of the early translators of the ancient texts into English who used capital letters to denote Jesus. Throughout the OT, Jesus and God are the interchanged, but never were they referred to in small letters.

    This allows me to clearly identify who was referred to in Dan 9:25-26.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post

    This allows me to clearly identify who was referred to in Dan 9:25-26.
    Clearly you see the clues these translators were leaving in many cases, just like I do, so that not a single person reading should misinterpret whom is being meant. Yet, unfortunately some are still misinterpreting whom is meant, not only in Dan 9:25-26, but in Dan 8:25 as well. Why? Because it contradicts their interpretations if it is meaning Christ, or not meaning Christ, as in the case of Dan 9:26 the prince that is to come. So instead of agreeing with Scriptures, plus trusting these translators at the time to have had excellent discernment, their interpretations seem far more important and that they apparently feel their interpretations trump all of these things some of the rest of us see as plainly obvious.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    I am one who doesn't agree with the KJV. I found at least one instance which clearly spoke of Jesus as Messiah, in the Psalms, yet they had translated as anointed one and without capital letters in the KJV.
    In fact, where apart from Dan 9 does the KJV put Messiah with a capital letter?
    All this shows is the bias and style of the translator. It does not show they are correct.

    As to Dan 8, even if it means Jesus, which I doubt. It doesn't change my view of the passage.
    Importantly in Dan 8 the word translated as Prince is "sar" but in Dan 9 it is not "sar" but "nageed". So two different words in Hebrew translated with one English word.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    As to Dan 8, even if it means Jesus, which I doubt. It doesn't change my view of the passage.
    Importantly in Dan 8 the word translated as Prince is "sar" but in Dan 9 it is not "sar" but "nageed". So two different words in Hebrew translated with one English word.
    If your view of that passage is that Dan 8 has been entirely historically fulfilled, then assuming verse 25 is about Jesus, how could that possibly not change your view of the passage? I realize you are not agreeing verse 25 is meaning Jesus, but assuming you were to eventually agree that it is, or for the sake of argument, let's say that you agree it is, I fail to see how that wouldn't change your view of that passage. If verse 25 is meaning Christ, obviously it would have to be meaning a time post His first coming.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I am one who doesn't agree with the KJV. I found at least one instance which clearly spoke of Jesus as Messiah, in the Psalms, yet they had translated as anointed one and without capital letters in the KJV.
    In fact, where apart from Dan 9 does the KJV put Messiah with a capital letter?
    All this shows is the bias and style of the translator. It does not show they are correct.
    I noticed where you submitted these things in DurbanDude's thread just recently. I can't explain when it's obviously meaning Christ, but that the translators didn't put any titles in capital letters, while at other times they did. But that the times they did though, such as the 5 passages in the OP, it seems pretty obvious they were taking these titles to mean Christ, that being the main point. The question is, were they inspired by the Holy Spirit to do that? That I don't know for certain. But I do lean more towards them actually having been inspired by the Holy Spirit to do that.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I noticed where you submitted these things in DurbanDude's thread just recently. I can't explain when it's obviously meaning Christ, but that the translators didn't put any titles in capital letters, while at other times they did. But that the times they did though, such as the 5 passages in the OP, it seems pretty obvious they were taking these titles to mean Christ, that being the main point. The question is, were they inspired by the Holy Spirit to do that? That I don't know for certain. But I do lean more towards them actually having been inspired by the Holy Spirit to do that.
    Yes, I get your point, and my point is that they chose some and ignored others, which shows they were presenting their own view and not something revealed by God, nor something necessarily correct.
    However in German capital letters were (and are) used for any noun. In English, especially at the time the KJV was written, the question of when to use capitals and when not to was still being worked out. So proper nouns (like names of people) were written with capitals. However other things like titles sometimes had one part as a capital and the other part not - so you have Prince of princes. We would put Prince of Princes today I believe.
    As the KJV had some people translate some parts and other people other parts, then it was down to the individual whether and how they used capitals, and also whether they translated a phrase into English or used it as a title and thus left it the same as the Hebrew (though anglicised).

    I don't see translators of one version as being anymore inspired than translators of another.
    The ESV uses the words anointed one in Dan 9 just as they do throughout the OT. IOW they aim for consistency in translation.
    I don't rely on a translators understanding of scripture, but upon the meaning of the scripture itself. This is why Strongs numbers (and other references are useful). A basic understanding of Hebrew and Greek is also helpful.
    If you rely on the translators inspiration, then you could read The Message or the NLT or any other version which accords with your view.
    I believe in the inspiration of the scriptures themselves, and that we are called to delve into them, to see whether the way they are presented is in accord with the context and other scriptures we know.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If your view of that passage is that Dan 8 has been entirely historically fulfilled, then assuming verse 25 is about Jesus, how could that possibly not change your view of the passage? I realize you are not agreeing verse 25 is meaning Jesus, but assuming you were to eventually agree that it is, or for the sake of argument, let's say that you agree it is, I fail to see how that wouldn't change your view of that passage. If verse 25 is meaning Christ, obviously it would have to be meaning a time post His first coming.
    Yes Dan 8 has been historically fulfilled.
    Assuming verse 25 is about Jesus, as you do, doesn't change things at all.
    You ask why not?
    Simple, when we speak of Jesus prior to His coming as baby, then what does that mean? For I think we agree that Jesus existed before He came as a baby.
    The real question then is what does it mean for someone to come against God, or His people and triumph over them?
    It tells us that this is something God has ordained for a purpose. It happens solely with His allowance of it.

    When you read Rev 13, and the beast triumphing for 42 months, this is exactly the same. The beast receives power from Satan, but even then he would not be able to defeat God's people, except God, for that period of time allowed it.
    So Dan 8 is an historical time, like the earlier times of the Judges and later the Assyrians and Babylonians, when God allows His people to face tribulation. We are even told why in Dan 11.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    If you rely on the translators inspiration, then you could read The Message or the NLT or any other version which accords with your view.

    I feel it's different in the case of the KJV though. I personally trust that the translators of the KJV translated correctly, 95% more than I trust the translators in any of these other versions, including the ESV, NLT, etc. If the KJV got outlawed or something, and I had to rely on all these other translations instead, I would likely quit reading the Bible altogether. That's how much faith I put in the KJV translators.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Doing a word search for prince in the KJV with Case sensitive checked, the following 5 passages show up in the results. So keep in mind, this OP has to do with when the KJV translators specifically put prince in capital letters, not at the beginning of a sentence, but further within a sentence. Such as the below passages show.


    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.



    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



    1...The Prince of Peace.

    2...the Messiah the Prince

    3...the Prince of life

    4...a Prince and a Saviour

    If these titles are all referring to Christ, where very few would even dare dispute, though there unfortunately are a few who would dispute
    2 in the list, how can this not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the following is referring to Christ as well?

    5....the Prince of princes


    Yet some around here will tell us this is not referring to Christ. How many princes in Scripture does one know about where all of the following fit that prince, the Prince of Peace, the Messiah the Prince, the Prince of life, a Prince and a Saviour? Seriously then, and very seriously at that at, how can this not add up to Christ then being the Prince of princes?


    The main reason some dispute Daniel 8:25 being about Christ, is because if it is about Christ, it shows their overall interpretation of Dan 8 to be nonsensical. Doesn't mean their entire interpretation of Dan 8 is nonsensical, but that when in gets to verse 9, their interpretation is proven to be nonsensical according to verse 25. If the little horn shall also stand up against Christ, obviously it has to be meaning a time after Christ has come first, and not a time preceding it instead. Then anyone also using the NT to help shed light on things, would know from that testament as to the timing of when the little horn shall stand up against Christ, and then shall be broken without hand. As to the latter, for those who might not be grasping the time of being broken without hand, it seems to be meaning the following.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


    The text says the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive. There you go then, they are both still alive when cast into the LOF, which seems to equal being broken without hand. On a side note: apparently then, the little horn may not necessarily be meaning a single individual like many assume. Maybe, maybe not, something to ponder is all.
    Satan is the prince of this world. Michael is the prince of Israel (Daniel 10 and 12). There is a prince of Persia (Daniel 10). A prince is a son of a King. Jesus will be the King of kings when He returns. 1 Timothy 6, the King of kings title will be given to Jesus from God the Father. A prince is the son of a king. God the Father is the King of kings. Princes are sons of God. There are idols that are no gods and other sons' of God who are gods and lords over nations (1 Cor. 8) but for us One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. Jude calls princes as archangels. Son of God are not created. Angels are created.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch987 View Post
    Satan is the prince of this world. Michael is the prince of Israel (Daniel 10 and 12). There is a prince of Persia (Daniel 10). A prince is a son of a King. Jesus will be the King of kings when He returns. 1 Timothy 6, the King of kings title will be given to Jesus from God the Father. A prince is the son of a king. God the Father is the King of kings. Princes are sons of God. There are idols that are no gods and other sons' of God who are gods and lords over nations (1 Cor. 8) but for us One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ. Jude calls princes as archangels. Son of God are not created. Angels are created.
    But a Prince of princes would mean the top most one.

    Daniel 10:13 *But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

    Here we see Michael is a chief prince, yet not THE chief prince since the text indicates he is one of a number of chief princes. We know from this Michael is likely not meant in Dan 8:25.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Doing a word search for prince in the KJV with Case sensitive checked, the following 5 passages show up in the results. So keep in mind, this OP has to do with when the KJV translators specifically put prince in capital letters, not at the beginning of a sentence, but further within a sentence. Such as the below passages show.


    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



    1...The Prince of Peace.

    2...the Messiah the Prince

    3...the Prince of life

    4...a Prince and a Saviour

    If these titles are all referring to Christ, where very few would even dare dispute, though there unfortunately are a few who would dispute
    2 in the list, how can this not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the following is referring to Christ as well?

    5....the Prince of princes


    Yet some around here will tell us this is not referring to Christ. How many princes in Scripture does one know about where all of the following fit that prince, the Prince of Peace, the Messiah the Prince, the Prince of life, a Prince and a Saviour? Seriously then, and very seriously at that at, how can this not add up to Christ then being the Prince of princes?


    The main reason some dispute Daniel 8:25 being about Christ, is because if it is about Christ, it shows their overall interpretation of Dan 8 to be nonsensical. Doesn't mean their entire interpretation of Dan 8 is nonsensical, but that when in gets to verse 9, their interpretation is proven to be nonsensical according to verse 25. If the little horn shall also stand up against Christ, obviously it has to be meaning a time after Christ has come first, and not a time preceding it instead. Then anyone also using the NT to help shed light on things, would know from that testament as to the timing of when the little horn shall stand up against Christ, and then shall be broken without hand. As to the latter, for those who might not be grasping the time of being broken without hand, it seems to be meaning the following.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


    The text says the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive. There you go then, they are both still alive when cast into the LOF, which seems to equal being broken without hand. On a side note: apparently then, the little horn may not necessarily be meaning a single individual like many assume. Maybe, maybe not, something to ponder is all.
    If I understand you correctly, I completely agree that the little horn in Daniel 8 stands up against Jesus. He is the man of sin, son of perdition, the one most call the AC. (He is not the beast however, that is a whole other animal that comes after the 7th trumpet coming of Jesus. Exactly as Daniel 12:1, Isaiah 16:1-4, and Revelation 12 says. Though I am one an island on this one.)

    As far as the "without hands" topic. This is used to describe something that Jesus/God does Himself without the help of any persons. Examples:

    Daniel 2:34 You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces.

    Mark 14:58 “We heard Him say, ‘I will destroy this temple made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.’”

    These acts "without hands" are done by God Himself. Paul also uses the term when referring to being saved in Christ/sealed by the HS.

    Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ

    All of these acts are done by God Himself. Therefore, we should understand that Jesus/God is going to personally deal with this little horn/son of perdition. This is exactly what Isaiah tells us.

    Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in My land, And on My mountains tread him underfoot. Then his yoke shall be removed from them, And his burden removed from their shoulders.

    The son of perdition, the man of sin, the AC, is Assyrian. Assyria is the land of the north in scripture several times. The king of the north in Daniel 11 is the one to defile the temple and declare himself god. It isn't complicated really. The AC is going to come from the area of northern Iraq, eastern Turkey/Syria. Basically, ISIS territory. No wonder this exact area is such a mess.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Doing a word search for prince in the KJV with Case sensitive checked, the following 5 passages show up in the results. So keep in mind, this OP has to do with when the KJV translators specifically put prince in capital letters, not at the beginning of a sentence, but further within a sentence. Such as the below passages show.
    KJV is either a translation or a commentary--not both. Therefore, since it is a translation we should take a capitalized "prince" under question. Is this an attempt to interpret who the "prince" is? If so, we should reject it. But could the KJV simply be trying to point out that this is an important "prince?" Perhaps that is legitimate. Regardless, we still have to depend on commentaries to figure out who the "prince" is in each situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



    1...The Prince of Peace.

    2...the Messiah the Prince

    3...the Prince of life

    4...a Prince and a Saviour

    If these titles are all referring to Christ, where very few would even dare dispute, though there unfortunately are a few who would dispute
    2 in the list, how can this not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the following is referring to Christ as well?

    5....the Prince of princes
    Yes, the argument is flawed. To find the word "prince" referring, prophetically, to Christ in some occasions does *not* mean that the word "prince" refers to Christ in all occasions. Poor argument.

    And you offer an "emotional appeal" as well! Would anybody challenge who the "prince of princes" is when these other references to Christ *dare not* be questioned? Well, of course we wouldn't question the references to Christ when they are already explicitly explained by Scripture to refer to Christ! But the same is *not* obviously true in the case of the "prince of princes." The closest we have to Scriptural identification is a similar statement made in Rev 1.5, referring to Christ as the "ruler of kings." So for me it remains an open question. Leave the "emotion" out of it!

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    Yet some around here will tell us this is not referring to Christ. How many princes in Scripture does one know about where all of the following fit that prince, the Prince of Peace, the Messiah the Prince, the Prince of life, a Prince and a Saviour? Seriously then, and very seriously at that at, how can this not add up to Christ then being the Prince of princes?
    As I say above, some references to Christ as "prince" do not necessarily make all uses of "prince" refer to Christ! The word "prince" can mean "high priest." And if we correlate Dan 8 and 11 both references to a "prince" may be to the current high priest of Israel, Onias.

    Dan 8.25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

    Dan 11.22 Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed.

    I'm not saying that the "prince of princes" does not refer to Christ. I'm just saying it's an open question. Christ is definitely not the context of either of these passages. Rather, they refer to Antiochus 4. Antiochus may have been attacking God, the "prince of princes." But then again, God is not a "prince." Or, he could have been attacking the high priest of Israel, because that event is part of the context.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    The main reason some dispute Daniel 8:25 being about Christ, is because if it is about Christ, it shows their overall interpretation of Dan 8 to be nonsensical. Doesn't mean their entire interpretation of Dan 8 is nonsensical, but that when in gets to verse 9, their interpretation is proven to be nonsensical according to verse 25. If the little horn shall also stand up against Christ, obviously it has to be meaning a time after Christ has come first, and not a time preceding it instead. Then anyone also using the NT to help shed light on things, would know from that testament as to the timing of when the little horn shall stand up against Christ, and then shall be broken without hand. As to the latter, for those who might not be grasping the time of being broken without hand, it seems to be meaning the following.
    First, we don't know that the "prince of princes" even refers to Christ, because the context involves the historical event in which Antiochus 4 attacked the Jewish religion. Christ has not yet been born.

    Second, even if the "prince of princes" refers to Christ, it could be a reference to his pre-incarnate existence. Antiochus 4, in attacking the Jewish religion, was actually attacking God as well. But there is still the problem of whether God is a "prince," and the problem whether Christ can even be referred to before he is born. It seems to me the high priest of Israel is a better fit for both "prince of princes" and "prince of the covenant (Dan 8.25; 11.22).

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD
    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    The text says the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive. There you go then, they are both still alive when cast into the LOF, which seems to equal being broken without hand. On a side note: apparently then, the little horn may not necessarily be meaning a single individual like many assume. Maybe, maybe not, something to ponder is all.
    Antiochus 4 died mysteriously and apparently by the "hand of God." He better fits Dan 8 and Dan 11 than the Antichrist does. Dan 7 is the Antichrist passage. If you want to refer to Antichrist you will find him there. All NT references to the Antichrist are to Dan 7, explicitly or inferentially.

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Doing a word search for prince in the KJV with Case sensitive checked, the following 5 passages show up in the results. So keep in mind, this OP has to do with when the KJV translators specifically put prince in capital letters, not at the beginning of a sentence, but further within a sentence. Such as the below passages show.


    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

    Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.



    1...The Prince of Peace.

    2...the Messiah the Prince

    3...the Prince of life

    4...a Prince and a Saviour

    If these titles are all referring to Christ, where very few would even dare dispute, though there unfortunately are a few who would dispute
    2 in the list, how can this not prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the following is referring to Christ as well?

    5....the Prince of princes


    Yet some around here will tell us this is not referring to Christ. How many princes in Scripture does one know about where all of the following fit that prince, the Prince of Peace, the Messiah the Prince, the Prince of life, a Prince and a Saviour? Seriously then, and very seriously at that at, how can this not add up to Christ then being the Prince of princes?


    The main reason some dispute Daniel 8:25 being about Christ, is because if it is about Christ, it shows their overall interpretation of Dan 8 to be nonsensical. Doesn't mean their entire interpretation of Dan 8 is nonsensical, but that when in gets to verse 9, their interpretation is proven to be nonsensical according to verse 25. If the little horn shall also stand up against Christ, obviously it has to be meaning a time after Christ has come first, and not a time preceding it instead. Then anyone also using the NT to help shed light on things, would know from that testament as to the timing of when the little horn shall stand up against Christ, and then shall be broken without hand. As to the latter, for those who might not be grasping the time of being broken without hand, it seems to be meaning the following.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


    The text says the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet...These both were cast alive. There you go then, they are both still alive when cast into the LOF, which seems to equal being broken without hand. On a side note: apparently then, the little horn may not necessarily be meaning a single individual like many assume. Maybe, maybe not, something to ponder is all.
    Your post was excellent until the last sentence. As I pointed out to someone, somewhere just the other day, when verses "conflict" its never Gods fault, its the translations or the readers misunderstandings.....We agree I assume, its never God giving us double speak. So lets look at Rev. 19:20......you use Rev. 19:19 and 20 but I just need verse 20. And lets look at Daniel 7:11.

    Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    So which is it, is the Anti-Christ Killed and thrown into hell or thrown into hell alive? Both can not be right, so lets use scriptures and logic. The bible says all men must die, then the Judgment.

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Rev. 20:4 of course is the Judgment Seats set up to judge the Beheaded of the Tribulation period. I think that the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are JUDGED and CONDEMNED to hell at the same time the Beheaded are judged, ALL MEN MUST BE JUDGED.

    So what does Rev. 19:20 mean then? I see our Spirit man as always being alive, when our bodies die our Spirit man "SLEEPS" for a time until the Rapture, or if one is Wicked until Judgment day of the Wicked 1000 years after Jesus returns. So when John sees the Anti-Christ/BEAST and False Prophet cast into hell ALIVE, I think that only means they were never allowed to "SLEEP" or go to the grave, they were cast straight into hell. Our souls never die. But we sleep.

    So I think the Beast's body is Killed, but he is taken straightaway to the Judgment Seat (Rev. 20:4), thus judged and cast ALIVE as a Spirit Man, into hell, hence they are never allowed to rest in the grave, they are thrown straight int hell.

    As per the broken without hand verse, that means its Jesus Christ, ordering their destruction via the "SPOKEN WORD" the same way the Universe was created, by the Spoken word. It signifies that the Holy Spirit is going to defeat the Anti-Christ/BEAST SYSTEM, without Jesus using a single HAND........Check out these Scriptures brother.

    Daniel 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

    Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he (ANTI-CHRIST) shall be broken without hand.

    2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Rev. 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

    Put it all together and I think the WITHOUT HAND Passage, means they will be defeated by the Holy Spirit which comes forth to defeat the Wicked one and his minions by the SPOKEN WORD !!

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    Re: Prince titles for Christ that are in capital letters in the KJV.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    Second, even if the "prince of princes" refers to Christ, it could be a reference to his pre-incarnate existence. (Dan 8.25; 11.22).


    The Prince of princes indeed means Christ, no doubt in my mind anyway. No way in a million years though, would I ever take it to mean a reference to His pre-incarnate existence. Meaning in this particular context. If I were going to do that I may as well do that in Dan 2 as well, that it is meaning references to Christ in His pre-incarnate existence in Dan 2 also.

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