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Thread: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

  1. #151

    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    To suggest that God "actively supervises" evil is to ignore his transcendence, making him culpable of evil.
    God is both transcendent and immanent in Christ. How can you say otherwise? As a transcendent Being the Father inhabits Christ. As an expression of divine immanency Christ *is* God.

    This is only explained by the relationship of God to His Word, which some might call the "subordination" of the Word to God. God is transcendent, and His Word assumes a finite shape, expressing God through the finite expression of verbal communication.

    However, this Word is unique, as we understand verbal communication. This Word is not just a finite expression of God, but it remains divine, or connected to the source of this expression. In this way the Word *is* God.

    When the Word became flesh, and assumed the form of a man, that human expression was in fact the expression of Deity. God's Word remained connected with its divine source, and the resulting expression became not just an expression of God but God Himself.

    This is strange but true. However, this example of "divine immanence" in no way involves God in human rebellion against His word. He is able to maneuver history and mankind without making them choose evil. He only commits them on the course they choose for themselves, so that history works out in terms of His good plan.

  2. #152
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    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Make them choose evil? No.

  3. #153

    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Make them choose evil? No.
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. God uses men who choose evil to fit into His good plan for this world. God is dealing with a fallen world with evil men and women who somehow have to fit into God's plan to make things right. It is God's nature to command things by His word. It would be a contradiction for Him to both command things and then make men not obey His word!

    What God can do is harden a man's heart after he has already chosen to live apart from God's word. God makes man show who he is when he tries to establish a life apart from God.

    Luke 22.33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

  4. #154
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    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God is both transcendent and immanent in Christ. How can you say otherwise?
    I'm not saying otherwise.

    As a transcendent Being the Father inhabits Christ.
    Negative. This is what some of the Gnostics thought, which isn't true. The Father and the Son are two individuals who have their own will.

    As an expression of divine immanency Christ *is* God.
    Okay, but Christology isn't at issue here and I'm not sure why you bring it up.

    However, this example of "divine immanence" in no way involves God in human rebellion against His word.
    I never said it did.

    He is able to maneuver history . . .
    God doesn't maneuver history. He creates it. Again, terms like "maneuver" suggest that God is NOT transcendent.

  5. #155
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    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. God uses men who choose evil to fit into His good plan for this world.
    Again, terms like "uses" and "deals with" imply that God is not transcendent.

    It is God's nature to command things by His word. It would be a contradiction for Him to both command things and then make men not obey His word!
    It makes sense within the narrative he is creating.

    What God can do is harden a man's heart after he has already chosen to live apart from God's word. God makes man show who he is when he tries to establish a life apart from God.
    God is not responsive; he is proactive and creative.

  6. #156
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    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, that's what I'm saying.
    Is it though? --->
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    God uses men who choose evil to fit into His good plan for this world. God is dealing with a fallen world with evil men and women who somehow have to fit into God's plan to make things right. It is God's nature to command things by His word. It would be a contradiction for Him to both command things and then make men not obey His word!

    What God can do is harden a man's heart after he has already chosen to live apart from God's word. God makes man show who he is when he tries to establish a life apart from God.

    Luke 22.33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”
    How does this fit --->

    Isa 45:1 Thus says the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and to loose the belts of kings, to open doors before him that gates may not be closed:
    Isa 45:2 “I will go before you and level the exalted places, I will break in pieces the doors of bronze and cut through the bars of iron,
    Isa 45:3 I will give you the treasures of darkness and the hoards in secret places, that you may know that it is I, the LORD, the God of Israel, who call you by your name.
    Isa 45:4 For the sake of my servant Jacob, and Israel my chosen, I call you by your name, I name you, though you do not know me.
    Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
    Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.

    ?

  7. #157

    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I'm not saying otherwise.

    Negative. This is what some of the Gnostics thought, which isn't true. The Father and the Son are two individuals who have their own will.
    I don't disagree that the Father and the Son are two individuals with their own will. But I would deny that only the Gnostics thought God was *immanent in Christ.*

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    Okay, but Christology isn't at issue here and I'm not sure why you bring it up.
    I brought it up to show how God is directly connected to creation. He used creation to reveal His own personality in finite terms. As such He is directly involved in the management of evil agents in this world--all without being associated in any way with the guilt of sin. He does not initiate sin. Rather, He supervises sin. He uses calamity. He does not manage calamity in a malicious way.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    I never said it did.
    Glad we agree that God is not evil. Of course we know that! This is just an attempt to explain a verse that *sounds* as if God is implicated in the sin He manages. My explanation is that the "evil" He describes is the kind of *calamity* He uses to punish those who have turned away from His word. He indulges them in their desire to experience something outside of His will. No malice in that. In fact, it can be said that such "punishment" can be used to correct bad behavior, turning people back to His blessings.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    God doesn't maneuver history. He creates it. Again, terms like "maneuver" suggest that God is NOT transcendent.
    I don't agree. God is infinite. If He is capable of being immanent in Christ, and He did that, then He is capable of being described anthropomorphically. "Managing," or "maneuvering" calamities is just another way of describing how God *judges* in the world. He causes events to turn in a variety of directions based on His sense of justice.

  8. #158
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    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't disagree that the Father and the Son are two individuals with their own will. But I would deny that only the Gnostics thought God was *immanent in Christ.*
    I was taking issue with your statement that the Father "inhabits" Christ. This is a Gnostic idea.

    I brought it up to show how God is directly connected to creation. He used creation to reveal His own personality in finite terms. As such He is directly involved in the management of evil agents in this world--all without being associated in any way with the guilt of sin. He does not initiate sin. Rather, He supervises sin. He uses calamity. He does not manage calamity in a malicious way.
    And I'm trying to get you to see that verbs like, "supervise" and "manage" are typically associated with beings that exist in our reality and do nothing to describe the activities of God the transcendent creator.

    Of course we know that! This is just an attempt to explain a verse that *sounds* as if God is implicated in the sin He manages.
    And I would like you to see that if God "manages" sin, then he is culpable for sin, just as the mob boss is culpable for the murders his contract killers perform.

    I don't agree. God is infinite. If He is capable of being immanent in Christ, and He did that, then He is capable of being described anthropomorphically. "Managing," or "maneuvering" calamities is just another way of describing how God *judges* in the world. He causes events to turn in a variety of directions based on His sense of justice.
    When did Jesus Christ cause evil or calamity? He didn't. God, the transcendent creator, is the one who causes calamity.

    I understand that we adopt anthropomorphic language to speak about God and normally I would grant you that. However, it serves us better in this context to maintain the distinction between God transcendent and God immanent. After all, the question is whether God is the cause of evil and the answer will be different depending on whether our focus is on God transcendent or God immanent.

    With regard to Jesus Christ, God immanent, the answer is a definite and emphatic no! Jesus would never commit an evil act, nor would he supervise evil or manage evil. But it is God transcendent speaking in Isaiah 47, telling Israel that he is in direct control of every reality shaping force in our existence and he is the only God worthy of their respect, worship, and devotion. He alone is the source of life and welfare.

    Accordingly then, God is not culpable for the evil he creates because the alternative to creation is nothing. Either God creates it or it doesn't exist. Paul argues that God is not culpable for evil because he is the creator and culpability for moral action depends on the metaphysical reality in which the question arises. God is authoring history, which from his perspective is like a story and so the question of accountability centers on the narrative. Did the author tell a good story or an evil story? In what ways does his story reveal his own perspective on morality? Does he reward the good and punish the evil? Does the story depict a meaningless existence or does the story depict a purpose for history? These are the types of questions relevant to God transcendent.

  9. #159

    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by fred06 View Post
    What do you say 'Brethren'?

    Please give us the testament and with Scripture verification in quote, of the truth, in order to defeat 'false', even circulating among us and out there, tq
    I will correctly answer this question for all of you.
    So as you will know that there is someone who does know the truth.
    I do not need to quote to you any verses from the bible
    or give you the words of another man.

    I will just put the truth out there for you to try to disprove it.
    To which none of you will not be able.
    For the truth is without error or any contradictions.
    It is flawless. This is how you know the truth.

    A. God is all knowing. True or false?

    B. The all knowing God
    knew before He created any being
    they would commit evil.
    True or false?

    C. God created evil beings.
    True or false?

    So unless you believe that God is not all knowing
    and did not know that some of the beings He created would
    commit and become evil before He created them
    then you have to agree that God created evil.
    For it was in His power to not create them.

    So do any of you believe God is not all knowing?

  10. #160

    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I was taking issue with your statement that the Father "inhabits" Christ. This is a Gnostic idea.
    I'm not sure where you get this? I was talking about God becoming "immanent" in Christ. I wasn't talking about the relationship of the Trinity to one another. Rather, I was talking about the relationship of God to His creation. Creation, in the case of Christ, was used by God to express something eternal--the Person of God Himself. The flesh of Christ was part of that expression, even though it consisted of finite temporal substance.

    But the point is, God's eternal word can take temporal realities that He has created and use them to express eternal realities--realities that originated from before the use of those temporal realities.

    That is what God did in using the flesh of Jesus as part of the total expression of His personality in human flesh. God became immanent in the human Jesus, and so Jesus expressed both a finite person and a divine Person.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    And I'm trying to get you to see that verbs like, "supervise" and "manage" are typically associated with beings that exist in our reality and do nothing to describe the activities of God the transcendent creator.
    I answered that. The Scriptures utilize "anthropomorphisms!

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    And I would like you to see that if God "manages" sin, then he is culpable for sin, just as the mob boss is culpable for the murders his contract killers perform.
    I don't see it that way. It certainly isn't true in this case. The way God manages events, and the way humans manage events are very different things. I don't believe you can make direct comparisons between them in this way, and come to this kind of conclusion.


    You want me to explain how God can allow a Devil to rule in earth's atmosphere? I owe it to authority that belongs to the Creator alone. He has every right to impose rules upon the earth. He is beyond question a *good God.* And yet He still allowed angels and men to make free choices, and then stick around to see the results of their choices.


    Is this "evil" for God to allow this? Apparently not.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    When did Jesus Christ cause evil or calamity? He didn't. God, the transcendent creator, is the one who causes calamity.
    You apparently do not understand the unity of the Son with the Father? They act in concert. What the Father does the Son does as well. There are distinctions between what each person does as an individual person. But there are divine things that can and should be attributed to both of them.

    For example, it can be said that both the Father and the Son created the world. It makes no difference that Jesus is defined by his humanity. He is also defined by his divinity, and so he can be said to have created the world as well. He preexisted his humanity as the word of God from eternity. And it was by this word that God created the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    I understand that we adopt anthropomorphic language to speak about God and normally I would grant you that. However, it serves us better in this context to maintain the distinction between God transcendent and God immanent. After all, the question is whether God is the cause of evil and the answer will be different depending on whether our focus is on God transcendent or God immanent.
    Well, I think that's really where the trouble lies--in the denial that the Son is part of this "transcendent reality" you speak of? It is one thing for you to explain the mystery of God's involvement in earthly evils by relegating it all to God's "transcendence." But it is another thing entirely to address God's immanence in His Son by denying any meaningful sense of divine imminance in the Son entirely!

    Ancient Greek philosophy also had this problem of accepting a connection between divine transcendence and any real connection with this world. But we understand it, as Christians, by *revelation.* The word of God *reveals* God in the flesh by our sense of faith, which is simply seeing it and accepting it. We cannot fully explain the transcendence of God by definition. But we can see it within our reality and embrace it in our lives in the form of our new spiritual nature. It really is an "other worldly experience!"

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    With regard to Jesus Christ, God immanent, the answer is a definite and emphatic no! Jesus would never commit an evil act, nor would he supervise evil or manage evil. But it is God transcendent speaking in Isaiah 47, telling Israel that he is in direct control of every reality shaping force in our existence and he is the only God worthy of their respect, worship, and devotion. He alone is the source of life and welfare.
    No, we both agree Jesus is sinless. But as God Jesus did manage the universe. He in fact created it together with the Father. He acted as God's word producing the universe. And he still acts as God's word managing it. He just doesn't do it as a man. Rather, it is his *divine nature* that connects substantially to God and thus becomes a co-partner with God in all of His acts, whether creating or managing.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    Accordingly then, God is not culpable for the evil he creates because the alternative to creation is nothing. Either God creates it or it doesn't exist. Paul argues that God is not culpable for evil because he is the creator and culpability for moral action depends on the metaphysical reality in which the question arises. God is authoring history, which from his perspective is like a story and so the question of accountability centers on the narrative. Did the author tell a good story or an evil story? In what ways does his story reveal his own perspective on morality? Does he reward the good and punish the evil? Does the story depict a meaningless existence or does the story depict a purpose for history? These are the types of questions relevant to God transcendent.
    That seems more like a cop out to me!

  11. #161
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    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not sure where you get this?
    Post #151 first sentence.

    I answered that. The Scriptures utilize "anthropomorphisms!
    And so do you, but we are talking about YOUR anthropomorphic language that belies an erroneous view of God's relationship to his creation.

    I don't see it that way.
    Of course not, thus your liberal use of anthropomorphic language that implies otherwise. I'm certain that if you knew what you were saying, you would be more careful with your choice of wording.

    It certainly isn't true in this case. The way God manages events, and the way humans manage events are very different things. I don't believe you can make direct comparisons between them in this way, and come to this kind of conclusion.
    Well now you know.

    You want me to explain how God can allow a Devil to rule in earth's atmosphere? I owe it to authority that belongs to the Creator alone. He has every right to impose rules upon the earth. He is beyond question a *good God.* And yet He still allowed angels and men to make free choices, and then stick around to see the results of their choices.
    Here again, your language implicates God in evil.

    Is this "evil" for God to allow this? Apparently not.
    God doesn't "allow" anything. He creates what happens.

    Well, I think that's really where the trouble lies--in the denial that the Son is part of this "transcendent reality" you speak of?
    There can be only one transcendent creator.

    It is one thing for you to explain the mystery of God's involvement in earthly evils by relegating it all to God's "transcendence." But it is another thing entirely to address God's immanence in His Son by denying any meaningful sense of divine imminance in the Son entirely!
    I didn't deny the immanence of God in the son. I deny that the son has ever done anything evil.

    God in the flesh by our sense of faith, which is simply seeing it and accepting it.
    God blesses gullibility? I don't think so.

    But as God Jesus did manage the universe.
    You don't believe that Jesus was born of Mary?

    That seems more like a cop out to me!
    What I said came straight out of Romans 9:19-24.

  12. #162

    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Post #151 first sentence.
    Yes, I know that much. I'm saying I don't know where you get the idea that God's immanence is "Gnostic," and not demonstrated in the Incarnation? Christians have been saying for centuries that God's immanence was demonstrated in the Incarnation. And this Christianity as a whole has never viewed as Gnosticism--only you!

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    And so do you, but we are talking about YOUR anthropomorphic language that belies an erroneous view of God's relationship to his creation.

    Of course not, thus your liberal use of anthropomorphic language that implies otherwise. I'm certain that if you knew what you were saying, you would be more careful with your choice of wording.

    Well now you know.

    Here again, your language implicates God in evil.

    God doesn't "allow" anything. He creates what happens.
    This is obviously false. He allows men to make choices. He allowed angels to make choices. God did not *create* those choices that only those men and angels could make! It was men and the angels who had to, by definition, make their own choices. God could not make those choices for them, since He only created the scenario in which those choices could be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    There can be only one transcendent creator.

    I didn't deny the immanence of God in the son. I deny that the son has ever done anything evil.
    We both agree the Son of God cannot be complicit with evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    God blesses gullibility? I don't think so.
    Nobody said anything about "gullibility." We're talking about the right of a transcendent, and good, Deity determining who has a free moral choice in our world. God has the right to do this. He has the right to determine that the choice can go either way. The resulting "evil" is the product of a free moral choice, and God would not be complicit in it, even if He created the scenario in which this could happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    You don't believe that Jesus was born of Mary?
    Jesus was both the Creator of the universe and the child born of Mary. This is what the Scriptures say. There was a substantial union between Jesus, the man, and God, the Father. It was called the Hypostatic Union.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    What I said came straight out of Romans 9:19-24.
    Yes, the problem with it is that it was simplistic as related to our conversation and arguments. Yes, God told the story, and the actors produced the evil. But *how* is the Creator of the story not implicated in the evil that results? That was the question, and you didn't address that.

  13. #163
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    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, I know that much. I'm saying I don't know where you get the idea that God's immanence is "Gnostic," and not demonstrated in the Incarnation?
    I didn't say that God's immanence was Gnostic but you have a faulty understanding of the incarnation. The Father does NOT inhabit the Christ. Whether you know it or not, you are promoting Docetism with that kind of statement.

    This is obviously false. He allows men to make choices. He allowed angels to make choices. God did not *create* those choices that only those men and angels could make! It was men and the angels who had to, by definition, make their own choices. God could not make those choices for them, since He only created the scenario in which those choices could be made.
    You are arguing a philosophical position, not based in Scripture. Your argument is based on how things appear from a human perspective, like saying the sun goes around the earth. The sun only appears to go around the earth because that is how we experience it from ground level. But in fact, the earth goes around the sun and rotates on its axis. It only appears that God "allows" evil men to excel; it only "appears" that evil men thrive. But in fact, God is creating everything for a purpose.

    Nobody said anything about "gullibility."
    I did. You said that some ideas need to be taken "on faith," which is the definition of gullibility.

    We're talking about the right of a transcendent, and good, Deity determining who has a free moral choice in our world. God has the right to do this. He has the right to determine that the choice can go either way. The resulting "evil" is the product of a free moral choice, and God would not be complicit in it, even if He created the scenario in which this could happen.
    It isn't about God's rights. The question centers on the nature of God and how he interacts with his creation. It's like you have some of the pieces of the puzzle but haven't put together a coherent picture. You spoke earlier about God's immanence and you accept this idea as a fact but don't seem to understand what it means or why it is required.

    God is immanent in many ways including theophanies like the burning bush and the Angel of the Lord. But it does not follow from the fact that God is immanent that he works things the way his creatures do. Your picture of God is too small, speaking about God "allowing" things, or "managing" things as if he is a creature and not the creator.

    Jesus was both the Creator of the universe and the child born of Mary. This is what the Scriptures say. There was a substantial union between Jesus, the man, and God, the Father. It was called the Hypostatic Union.
    The doctrine of the Hypostatic Union is a nonsensical "work around" innovated by theologians, steeped in Greek philosophy who attempted a theory explaining how a human being can be God. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." He meant, of course, that he was "one" in character, beliefs and goals with the Father, not "one" in essence with the Father.

    You said, "But as God Jesus did manage the universe." And you don't seem to realize that this is also a Gnostic idea and when I say "Gnostic" I'm not just throwing this word around like some who attack people with it. I'm not attacking you. I'm telling you the source of your ideas. The idea that God needed a subordinate to create the universe came first from Plato and then the Gnostic thinkers who spoke about the Demiurge who was responsible for the fashioning and maintenance of the physical universe. It was believed that God was too holy and pure to make contact with the physical universe and therefore, the Demiurge accounts for how the physical universe came into existence.

    The Bible speaks of only one transcendent creator of the universe. We know him as "Yahweh," which means "he who is." John says of him, "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." And elsewhere Paul says of him, "in Him we live and move and have our being." From God's transcendent perspective, "all things come into being." He causes all things to "come into being." From his transcendent perspective, he doesn't "allow" things to happen; he doesn't "manage" circumstances or situations. He causes all things to "come into being."

    Yes, the problem with it is that it was simplistic as related to our conversation and arguments. Yes, God told the story, and the actors produced the evil. But *how* is the Creator of the story not implicated in the evil that results? That was the question, and you didn't address that.
    I think this needs no explanation because the answer should be obvious. If Joe writes a book in which a husband murders his wife, Joe is not put on trial for murder. Joe is not judge for the murder by a jury of his peers; the husband is put on trial by a jury of his peers. Joe and the husband are not peers. Joe is the transcendent author of the book, without whom there would be no husband, no wife, no jury, no court and no trial.

    When God brings the Chaldeans down to attack Judah as a punishment, God is not being held accountable for that action by a jury of his peers. Neither the Chaldeans nor Judah are the ontological peers of God. He is the ultimate cause of this historical event, but he doesn't manipulate people or events in order to produce the results he seeks. He simply says, "Let there be Chaldeans coming down to attach Judah. And it was so. And God saw that it was good." God is the creator, not the "allow-er" or the "manager."

  14. #164

    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I didn't say that God's immanence was Gnostic but you have a faulty understanding of the incarnation. The Father does NOT inhabit the Christ. Whether you know it or not, you are promoting Docetism with that kind of statement.
    If you think I was espousing Docetism you don't know what it is! What statement that I made are you referring to? Perhaps you are drawing a wrong conclusion about it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    You are arguing a philosophical position, not based in Scripture. Your argument is based on how things appear from a human perspective, like saying the sun goes around the earth. The sun only appears to go around the earth because that is how we experience it from ground level. But in fact, the earth goes around the sun and rotates on its axis. It only appears that God "allows" evil men to excel; it only "appears" that evil men thrive. But in fact, God is creating everything for a purpose.
    No, I don't think the sun rotates around the earth, and I don't think evil men thrive *in the long run.*

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    I did. You said that some ideas need to be taken "on faith," which is the definition of gullibility.
    No, every time we respond to an invisible God we are taking Him at His word *by faith.* We are responding to stimuli that transcends our senses, and speaks to us on a purely spiritual level. There is nothing gullible about believing in God. If we take someone else's word about what God said then we are gullible. We need to go to God directly to know the word is truly from Him.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    It isn't about God's rights. The question centers on the nature of God and how he interacts with his creation. It's like you have some of the pieces of the puzzle but haven't put together a coherent picture. You spoke earlier about God's immanence and you accept this idea as a fact but don't seem to understand what it means or why it is required.
    I understand it well. I've only been looking at this material for decades! Perhaps it's *you* who don't understand it?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    God is immanent in many ways including theophanies like the burning bush and the Angel of the Lord. But it does not follow from the fact that God is immanent that he works things the way his creatures do. Your picture of God is too small, speaking about God "allowing" things, or "managing" things as if he is a creature and not the creator.
    And you have special knowledge about how God operates?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    The doctrine of the Hypostatic Union is a nonsensical "work around" innovated by theologians, steeped in Greek philosophy who attempted a theory explaining how a human being can be God. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." He meant, of course, that he was "one" in character, beliefs and goals with the Father, not "one" in essence with the Father.
    Now I see where you have placed yourself--clearly outside of conservative Christianity. No wonder we disagree on so much!

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    You said, "But as God Jesus did manage the universe." And you don't seem to realize that this is also a Gnostic idea and when I say "Gnostic" I'm not just throwing this word around like some who attack people with it. I'm not attacking you. I'm telling you the source of your ideas. The idea that God needed a subordinate to create the universe came first from Plato and then the Gnostic thinkers who spoke about the Demiurge who was responsible for the fashioning and maintenance of the physical universe. It was believed that God was too holy and pure to make contact with the physical universe and therefore, the Demiurge accounts for how the physical universe came into existence.
    I have never agreed with the Greek philosophers who saw God as so transcendent that He needed intermediaries between Himself and the world. That rather appears to have been closer to your position? After all, I was the one in this discussion who first suggested God was immanent in Christ!

    I should add that although I agree that God acts with respect to creation through the intermediary of His word, you should realize that the word God uses is His own word. In other words, that word is an extension of His own Being!

    The subordination of the word to God and of the Son to the Father continues to express their equality with God. They just show that they represent an extension of Deity into the realm of creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    The Bible speaks of only one transcendent creator of the universe. We know him as "Yahweh," which means "he who is." John says of him, "All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." And elsewhere Paul says of him, "in Him we live and move and have our being." From God's transcendent perspective, "all things come into being." He causes all things to "come into being." From his transcendent perspective, he doesn't "allow" things to happen; he doesn't "manage" circumstances or situations. He causes all things to "come into being."
    I only said God "allows things" with respect to the *evil choices* that men and angels make. I never said God doesn't directly cause things like creation!

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    I think this needs no explanation because the answer should be obvious. If Joe writes a book in which a husband murders his wife, Joe is not put on trial for murder. Joe is not judge for the murder by a jury of his peers; the husband is put on trial by a jury of his peers. Joe and the husband are not peers. Joe is the transcendent author of the book, without whom there would be no husband, no wife, no jury, no court and no trial.
    And in my scenario God creates the world and the people who make their own choices. God is not responsible for the evil men choose to do. God just gave them the choice. He "wrote the story."

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    When God brings the Chaldeans down to attack Judah as a punishment, God is not being held accountable for that action by a jury of his peers. Neither the Chaldeans nor Judah are the ontological peers of God. He is the ultimate cause of this historical event, but he doesn't manipulate people or events in order to produce the results he seeks. He simply says, "Let there be Chaldeans coming down to attach Judah. And it was so. And God saw that it was good." God is the creator, not the "allow-er" or the "manager."
    If God caused men directly to sin against other men, then He is the cause of evil and directly accountable for the sin. Of course this scenario isn't at all true. God doesn't directly cause men to sin. He gives them a choice, and then allows them to choose to sin.

    If God brings judgment upon a nation He does so in a just way. Even if there are innocent victims it is the sin in man that has caused innocents to suffer and die.

    In the most striking example of God causing the innocent to die, and yet not doing evil, God let His Son die on the cross. He indirectly caused this to happen by using the sinful choices of men to result in an act that brings about His own suffering and willingness to forgive. It's hard to understand this, but that's how it was.

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    Re: Is 'evil' the creation of GOD too?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If you think I was espousing Docetism you don't know what it is! What statement that I made are you referring to? Perhaps you are drawing a wrong conclusion about it?
    You said the Father inhabits Christ.

    No, I don't think the sun rotates around the earth, and I don't think evil men thrive *in the long run.*
    You aren't following me. I didn't say you think the sun rotates around the earth. I said you are seeing the phenomenon of God, mistaking it for what is actually taking place.

    No, every time we respond to an invisible God we are taking Him at His word *by faith.* We are responding to stimuli that transcends our senses, and speaks to us on a purely spiritual level. There is nothing gullible about believing in God. If we take someone else's word about what God said then we are gullible. We need to go to God directly to know the word is truly from Him.
    We aren't talking about responding to God. We are talking about the theological machinations of man, disguised as religious dogma, which make no sense but which must be taken "by faith."

    I understand it well. I've only been looking at this material for decades!
    You seem to have been looking in the wrong places.

    And you have special knowledge about how God operates?
    It's called Biblical revelation.

    Now I see where you have placed yourself--clearly outside of conservative Christianity. No wonder we disagree on so much!
    You just figured this out just now?

    I have never agreed with the Greek philosophers who saw God as so transcendent that He needed intermediaries between Himself and the world.
    Then why do you claim that God created the world through Jesus?

    I only said God "allows things" with respect to the *evil choices* that men and angels make. I never said God doesn't directly cause things like creation!
    I know. I take issue with your view that God allows things. But even the idea that God "causes" creation, has it wrong. God doesn't "cause" creation. He creates creation.

    If God caused men directly to sin against other men, then He is the cause of evil and directly accountable for the sin. Of course this scenario isn't at all true. God doesn't directly cause men to sin. He gives them a choice, and then allows them to choose to sin.
    God says that he creates the evil choices that man makes.

    In the most striking example of God causing the innocent to die, and yet not doing evil, God let His Son die on the cross. He indirectly caused this to happen by using the sinful choices of men to result in an act that brings about His own suffering and willingness to forgive. It's hard to understand this, but that's how it was.
    Again, if God caused men to crucify Jesus then God is culpable for their evil, even if he caused it indirectly. Causing something indirectly doesn't get anyone off the hook. A mob boss is just as guilty as the hit man. Whether you like it or not, whether you mean it or not, your view can only lead to the conclusion that God is guilty of Evil.

    According to Paul's view, God is not guilty of evil because he is a creator. (Romans 9:19-24) God doesn't cause events, he creates events.

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