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Thread: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

  1. #16

    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Verse 6 are the angles as my and many versions of the bible says and God resides in heaven. Verse 6 in your version says sons of God but all the other verses you mentioned say Jobs sons.
    The original is "bene ha Elohim" which is literally "sons of God"
    Sons of God can be either man or angels for translators to decide which one it is and then alter the translation is a dubious thing for a translator to do they should just translate especially with Holy writ.

    When satan tempted Jesus he didn't have a body to go into.
    I think Satan is different to the fallen angels in the fact he had a role on earth, also we can see he ascended to heaven before they were cast out, this is the timing of Satan appearing in heaven

    Rev 12:2 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon

    Im of the opinion Satan my have been indwelling someone when he tempted Christ but I don't know you may be right...



    Yes I think that satan was banished from dwelling in heaven before Jesus ascension but restricted from entering heaven after Jesus ascension.
    Sorry I don't understand what you mean here, when was Satan banished from dwelling in heaven? Do you mean he was banished had no access since Eden? and after he was banished could he still go into heaven when he wanted? and does restricted from heaven mean banished? so has no way to access to heaven post the ascension? Sorry just trying to clarify not quite following



    Revelation 12:10
    Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

    It states above before our God day and night and God dwells up in heaven on His throne
    I take it you are assuming that Satan has to enter heaven to accuse us before God continually, Satan here as the dragon has been hurled down but this is after he ascended in Rev 12:2 which is after Mary became pregnant,
    Rev 12:2 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon

    Did he ascend into heaven just to accuse us? I think I more agree than disagree

    Is it a wonder that the time has come for the place of these ones in heaven should no longer be found, no more forever. Heaven cannot contain both justified sinners and him that has accused man as unjust, to do so is in rejection of Jesus as the redeemer of men. Does this not give more appreciation to these words "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah"

    When I think about Job, God initiated the conversations.

    Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

    and again the next time


    Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

    Your point that God dwells in heaven so Satan must be in heaven here is an assumption, if I applied the same logic then wouldn't that mean Abraham or Samuel must be in heaven to converse with God.

    If you mean Satan wasn't accusing Job here I think I may end up agreeing with you, but I need to look at it more, it does makes sense that if Jesus left heaven and came to earth then Satan who thinks men are not worthy of Salvation ascends to heaven and accuses us of unworthiness and so also judges Jesus by implication, which a third of the angels agree and follow, hence the angelic war that follows? and then again does this not give more appreciation to these words "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah"




    Saying that it was good means that God was pleased with what He made only God is good.

    Mark 10:18
    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

    Everything else is un perfect
    I cant get my head around the gap theory, I mean shouldnt we just accept scripture above so called science? so called science is just another way for man in ignorance to declare unprovable facts. Trying to conform scripture to evolution is back to front, if it doesn't line up with scripture then its wrong.

    The 6th day was not only good it was very good, there has been no curse no death, no sin, for sin entered through Adam, it cant have entered our creation from another creation or prior to Adam sinning or sin would have entered the world through Satan making this verse a contradiction

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    Things like thorns not being in existence prior to Adam sinning and the curse yet having them turn up in the fossil records discounts any credibility of a gap theory in my opinion.

    Maybe satan was banished from heaven after he tempted Eve or before I am not sure but pride was in the hearts of satan and Adam and Eve
    I still don't understand your position, if he was banished at Eden, does that not mean you believe he no longer has access to heaven from that point onwards?



    Our courts do not govern God but it is a fact that pride is sin

    James 4:6
    6 But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

    “God opposes the proud
    but shows favor to the humble

    Proverbs 11:2
    When pride comes, then comes disgrace,
    but with humility comes wisdom.

    Ezekiel 28:2
    2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

    “‘In the pride of your heart
    you say, “I am a god;
    I sit on the throne of a god
    in the heart of the seas.”
    But you are a mere mortal and not a god,
    though you think you are as wise as a god.

    Proverbs 8:13
    To fear the Lord is to hate evil;
    I hate pride and arrogance,
    evil behavior and perverse speech.
    The point I was trying to make is that pride leads to sin, we know Satan succumbed to pride but what was the actual sin he committed? People cant just say he was prideful and was therefore thrown out of heaven in an unknown creation before our creation in mysterious unknown circumstances that is beyond Gods ability to explain to us and we have no way of knowing any circumstances to his downfall, can they?

  2. #17
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    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "The child is born in the second advent"
    Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born. Unto us a Son is given.
    And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    We all know Messiah comes twice of course. Thus there are two descriptions of His coming here is Isaiah. The Son was given the first time.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son

    The second time, the Child is born. I know that may not make sense, but that is what it says.

    What scripture do you have to back that the casting out of satan takes place on Tishri 22, a fall feast?
    I could not explain all the appointed times to where they would make sense. At least, not for about three more years.

    If you saw my two Revelation 12 post you will see that I used scripture to back when i believe that satan was cast out of heaven for good
    I did see, but I think you took scripture out of context to make that case. Besides, Jesus' own disciples and Paul surely did not believe that was the case.

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    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Sorry I don't understand what you mean here, when was Satan banished from dwelling in heaven? Do you mean he was banished had no access since Eden? and after he was banished could he still go into heaven when he wanted? and does restricted from heaven mean banished? so has no way to access to heaven post the ascension? Sorry just trying to clarify not quite following
    Satan dwelled in heaven but after he sinned I believe that he wasn't allowed to dwell in heaven but he could enter heaven when summoned. After Jesus acended back up to heaven satan was cast out for good as Revelation 12 says

    I take it you are assuming that Satan has to enter heaven to accuse us before God continually, Satan here as the dragon has been hurled down but this is after he ascended in Rev 12:2 which is after Mary became pregnant,
    Rev 12:2 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon

    Did he ascend into heaven just to accuse us? I think I more agree than disagree
    I don't think that Rev 12:2 is satan ascending into heaven I think that it is just a vision John sees in the sky which is the heavens and it doesn't say that he ascended in that verse. But I agree satan did go back to heaven just to accuse us

    Is it a wonder that the time has come for the place of these ones in heaven should no longer be found, no more forever. Heaven cannot contain both justified sinners and him that has accused man as unjust, to do so is in rejection of Jesus as the redeemer of men. Does this not give more appreciation to these words "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah"

    When I think about Job, God initiated the conversations.

    Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

    and again the next time


    Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
    Yes God initiated the conversation and what you state here makes sense and was what I was saying and was the reason that satan was cast out of heaven

    Your point that God dwells in heaven so Satan must be in heaven here is an assumption, if I applied the same logic then wouldn't that mean Abraham or Samuel must be in heaven to converse with God.
    Not really because they were humans satan is a spiritual being and he appeared before God

    If you mean Satan wasn't accusing Job here I think I may end up agreeing with you, but I need to look at it more, it does makes sense that if Jesus left heaven and came to earth then Satan who thinks men are not worthy of Salvation ascends to heaven and accuses us of unworthiness and so also judges Jesus by implication, which a third of the angels agree and follow, hence the angelic war that follows? and then again does this not give more appreciation to these words "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah"
    The text in Rev 12 shows that satan was cast out after Jesus ascended back up to heaven and I think the reason satan was cast out was because as you say satan accused us but we are now justified and made perfect through Jesus

    I cant get my head around the gap theory, I mean shouldnt we just accept scripture above so called science? so called science is just another way for man in ignorance to declare unprovable facts. Trying to conform scripture to evolution is back to front, if it doesn't line up with scripture then its wrong.
    Sorry i don't follow what you mean about the gap theory of course scripture is above science I don't conform scripture to evolution.

    The 6th day was not only good it was very good, there has been no curse no death, no sin, for sin entered through Adam, it cant have entered our creation from another creation or prior to Adam sinning or sin would have entered the world through Satan making this verse a contradiction

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    Things like thorns not being in existence prior to Adam sinning and the curse yet having them turn up in the fossil records discounts any credibility of a gap theory in my opinion.
    Man was pure and perfect until sin entered through Adam & Eve sin caused death but physical death doesn't apply to spiritual beings like satan. The below verse shows that satan was sinful and a liar from his beginning

    John 8:44
    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

    I still don't understand your position, if he was banished at Eden, does that not mean you believe he no longer has access to heaven from that point onwards?
    Only when he was summoned by God

    The point I was trying to make is that pride leads to sin, we know Satan succumbed to pride but what was the actual sin he committed? People cant just say he was prideful and was therefore thrown out of heaven in an unknown creation before our creation in mysterious unknown circumstances that is beyond Gods ability to explain to us and we have no way of knowing any circumstances to his downfall, can they?
    Jesus said that he was always a liar so evil was always his intention and in his heart.

    God doesn't always tell us everything in the bible only what we need for example

    Jude 1:9
    9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

    Now the bible doesn't record the dispute but Jude knew about it so the bible as we know it is all we need but other events that people like Jude knew about as stated in the verse above happened and is still truth just like Hebrews states that Isiah was sawed in half but that wasn't recorded in our bible outside of Hebrews but the author of Hebrews knew about it

  4. #19

    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Satan dwelled in heaven but after he sinned I believe that he wasn't allowed to dwell in heaven but he could enter heaven when summoned. After Jesus acended back up to heaven satan was cast out for good as Revelation 12 says
    I believe Rev 12 verse 7 the war in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his angels and verse 4 where the dragon sweeps a third of the angels to earth are descriptions of the same event, verse 13 describes that when the dragon was cast to earth he persecuted Israel who gives birth to the male child.
    When can read from the gospels that Israel was indeed persecuted by Satan and demons, so is a fulfilling of verse 13
    and verse 8 tells us there is no longer a place found for them in heaven any longer, So from my point of view if they are cast down to earth, and the dragon tries to devour the child, and they persecute the woman(Israel) this all happens before the child ascends back to heaven



    I don't think that Rev 12:2 is satan ascending into heaven I think that it is just a vision John sees in the sky which is the heavens and it doesn't say that he ascended in that verse. But I agree satan did go back to heaven just to accuse us
    Yes but it seems to be an anomaly for the dragon to be in heaven, In Job God asks Satan where have you been? Obviously hes not in heaven, and the fact he answers going to fro upon the earth means not only is he on the earth but he has a certain amount of liberty on earth.

    When Isaiah talks to Satan he talks of the future sin Satan is going to commit, and it involves going to heaven, traveling above the clouds.

    Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    In Dan 8:10 The little horn grows up and reaches to the host of heaven, to throw some of the host down to the ground, This verse is the OT parallel to Rev 12:2-4 surly this shows that the dragon enters heaven here? Besides, he’s been ruling on the earth as the symbolism of the dragon shows.



    Yes God initiated the conversation and what you state here makes sense and was what I was saying and was the reason that satan was cast out of heaven
    But does that mean he is in heaven while the gospel accounts are taking place?


    Sorry i don't follow what you mean about the gap theory of course scripture is above science I don't conform scripture to evolution.


    Man was pure and perfect until sin entered through Adam & Eve sin caused death but physical death doesn't apply to spiritual beings like satan. The below verse shows that satan was sinful and a liar from his beginning
    But Satan was not created sinful, he was also created perfect, so he became corrupt, and he is a created being and part of the genesis creation account of heaven and earth?

    John 8:44
    You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.


    Only when he was summoned by God

    Jesus said that he was always a liar so evil was always his intention and in his heart.
    John 8:44 is not a literal rendering I have no idea why people who are not legalistic apply a legal meaning here, for example the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, those who would apply a literal rendering would believe before earth was created Jesus sacrificed himself and literally died before the creation account.

    Yet we know this is not the case, just as we know Satan did not murder anyone at the beginning.

    He told the Pharisees the devil was their father, again he is not their actual father but because of their desires it expresses the intentions of their heart, they were imitators of the devil, they lied because they kept saying God was their father, and they were murderers because in their heart they intended to kill the son of God.

    But the Pharisees had their own choices to make as did Satan they were not murderers from the beginning just as Judas wasn’t a betrayer from the beginning but through foreknowledge they were. Or the Pharisees were liars and murderer's from the beginning as they have followed the same lusts or patterned Satan.


    God doesn't always tell us everything in the bible only what we need for example

    Jude 1:9
    9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

    Now the bible doesn't record the dispute but Jude knew about it so the bible as we know it is all we need but other events that people like Jude knew about as stated in the verse above happened and is still truth just like Hebrews states that Isiah was sawed in half but that wasn't recorded in our bible outside of Hebrews but the author of Hebrews knew about it
    Again I don’t believe Satan was created sinful but perfect, and I don’t believe anyone knew that Satan tried to indwell Moses after he died so he could become the ruler of Israel until Jude by inspiration reveals this insight for us, its interesting to know God would not let Satan rule Israel and that he enters dead people (like the AntiChrist)

    Is it strange that those who say the bible doesn't tell us about Satans demise, are extremely vociferous about when and how they think his fall actually occurs?

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    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I think I approach this from an entirely different direction, or I think people have it totally back to front, Satan was in Eden and perfect in all his ways so he was legitimately allowed on earth, So I think he sinned when he ascended into heaven
    How did you reach this conclusion? If your account is correct, Adam then sinned BEFORE Lucifer (Satan)? You are the one who's got back to front for Satan had long sinned before Adam.

  6. #21

    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    How did you reach this conclusion?
    I read the bible before I read any commentaries or without going to a church, not that I understood everything and I misunderstood some things, but I picked up from scriptures Adam sinned first without the paradigm that Satan sinned first so I did not read scripture with the bias that Satan was already cast out.

    If your account is correct, Adam then sinned BEFORE Lucifer (Satan)?
    Yep, that's how scripture seems to present it, as Adam as the original sinner.
    You are the one who's got back to front for Satan had long sinned before Adam.
    Yet by one man sin entered the world, not by one angel sin entered the world.

    But tell me what verse or verses tells you Satan sinned long before Adam?

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    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Yep, that's how scripture seems to present it, as Adam as the original sinner.
    You are the one who's got back to front for Satan had long sinned before Adam.
    Yet by one man sin entered the world, not by one angel sin entered the world.

    But tell me what verse or verses tells you Satan sinned long before Adam?
    Genesis 3:1-7
    Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

    2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

    4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

    In the text above Adam was actually the third one to sin. Satan first as he deceived and lied to Eve then Eve was the second one to sin as she disobeyed God and ate the fruit and then Adam was third as he also ate the fruit

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    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

    2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

    4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
    Revelation 12:5-7
    5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

    7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

    But verse 7 starts with "Then war broke out in heaven" the key word being "Then" So this war happens after the the child is taken back up to heaven.

    Yes but it seems to be an anomaly for the dragon to be in heaven, In Job God asks Satan where have you been? Obviously hes not in heaven, and the fact he answers going to fro upon the earth means not only is he on the earth but he has a certain amount of liberty on earth.
    Yes he is in heaven where God is God asked "where have you been" not Where are you "have you been" is where was satan. Going to and fro the earth is where satan was.

    When Isaiah talks to Satan he talks of the future sin Satan is going to commit, and it involves going to heaven, traveling above the clouds.

    Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    Yes it was future of when satan said it I agree and so does my position on this.

    In Dan 8:10 The little horn grows up and reaches to the host of heaven, to throw some of the host down to the ground, This verse is the OT parallel to Rev 12:2-4 surly this shows that the dragon enters heaven here? Besides, he’s been ruling on the earth as the symbolism of the dragon shows.
    Satan is not the little horn that was Antiochus Epiphanies

    But does that mean he is in heaven while the gospel accounts are taking place?
    He could enter heaven when summoned

    But Satan was not created sinful, he was also created perfect, so he became corrupt, and he is a created being and part of the genesis creation account of heaven and earth?
    I don't see a question here but I agree

    ohn 8:44 is not a literal rendering I have no idea why people who are not legalistic apply a legal meaning here, for example the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, those who would apply a literal rendering would believe before earth was created Jesus sacrificed himself and literally died before the creation account.

    Yet we know this is not the case, just as we know Satan did not murder anyone at the beginning.

    He told the Pharisees the devil was their father, again he is not their actual father but because of their desires it expresses the intentions of their heart, they were imitators of the devil, they lied because they kept saying God was their father, and they were murderers because in their heart they intended to kill the son of God.

    But the Pharisees had their own choices to make as did Satan they were not murderers from the beginning just as Judas wasn’t a betrayer from the beginning but through foreknowledge they were. Or the Pharisees were liars and murderer's from the beginning as they have followed the same lusts or patterned Satan.
    Satan was a murder from the beginning as his intention was to kill all people by tempting us to sin and sin results in death. Satan wanted to kill our bodies

    Again I don’t believe Satan was created sinful but perfect, and I don’t believe anyone knew that Satan tried to indwell Moses after he died so he could become the ruler of Israel until Jude by inspiration reveals this insight for us, its interesting to know God would not let Satan rule Israel and that he enters dead people (like the AntiChrist)

    Is it strange that those who say the bible doesn't tell us about Satans demise, are extremely vociferous about when and how they think his fall actually occurs?
    Satan was created perfect just like us but we all have free will and we can not be perfect when it is our choice as only God is perfect.

    I don't think that satan tried to indwell the body of Moses that is not what the text says and I have never heard of that before did you hear it somewhere else? I don't think that satan can enter any dead body and the bible does not say that he will enter the antichrist's dead body to bring him back to life to do that he would have the same power as God and only God can bring the dead back to life.

    Is it strange that those who say the bible doesn't tell us about Satans demise, are extremely vociferous about when and how they think his fall actually occurs?
    Sure but the bible does tell us about satan's demise here below

    Revelation 20:10
    10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

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    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I read the bible before I read any commentaries or without going to a church, not that I understood everything and I misunderstood some things, but I picked up from scriptures Adam sinned first without the paradigm that Satan sinned first so I did not read scripture with the bias that Satan was already cast out.
    For a start, Satan has not been cast out of heaven yet. But he will be before the return of the Messiah in the end times.

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Yep, that's how scripture seems to present it, as Adam as the original sinner.
    Satan had already sinned BEFORE God created Adam and Eve. The concept of "original sin" denotes the first sin against God by man. In contrast, Satan is not flesh and blood like us.

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Yet by one man sin entered the world, not by one angel sin entered the world.

    But tell me what verse or verses tells you Satan sinned long before Adam?
    Sin couldn't have entered the earth through Satan as he did not reproduce, ie, give birth to another human being. Adam and Eve were the first humans, they bore children and their transgression henceforth continues to flow down through every flesh on earth. Lucifer had already sinned through pride, and after his fall from grace, he became known as Satan. If he was still righteous and serving God faithfully, why would he then deceive Adam - an act that is a direction rebellion again God?

    These are a few scriptures about Satan's sin:

    Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


    Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

    17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

  10. #25

    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    For a start, Satan has not been cast out of heaven yet. But he will be before the return of the Messiah in the end times.
    Do you also mean he sinned but is not cast out of heaven and dwells in heaven but travels to earth to act out his own will?



    Satan had already sinned BEFORE God created Adam and Eve. The concept of "original sin" denotes the first sin against God by man. In contrast, Satan is not flesh and blood like us.
    Would you also agree with Marty that Eve sinned before Adam?


    Sin couldn't have entered the earth through Satan as he did not reproduce, ie, give birth to another human being. Adam and Eve were the first humans, they bore children and their transgression henceforth continues to flow down through every flesh on earth.
    But isn't all creation affected by sin, don't we need a new earth and heavens?

    Lucifer had already sinned through pride, and after his fall from grace, he became known as Satan. If he was still righteous and serving God faithfully, why would he then deceive Adam - an act that is a direction rebellion again God?
    I don't actually believe Adam was deceived, so he does not have that excuse, I think he knowingly or deliberately sinned when he ate from the Tree.

    These are a few scriptures about Satan's sin:
    When the serpent was made to eat dust I think there is a picture here of Satan being isolated to the earth, he is now to perform his priestly and kingly role on earth, so do the verses you provide look back to before Eden or are they looking forward?

    Isaiah 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    Notice the "which did weaken the nations" there were no nations before Adam and Eve so the reference appears to be future

    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    Ive tried to explain to Marty, that Satan or the dragon entering heaven seems to be one off thing, notice the verse "I will ascend into heaven" if Satan daily goes into heaven or has access then how is this even a point or a rebuke or warning? It seems to be an act of rebellion as is "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God"

    Again "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds" again I believe this is in regards to a future time from Isaiah's perspective, I don't believe there were any clouds before Noahs flood (or rainbows) so I don't see how it can be before Adams sin either. And again the point is Satan lifting himself to a place where he is not meant to be, and shows him going from earth to heaven and then his being thrown down, the only thing we are not told here is the timing.


    Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

    17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
    There is no timing associated with this verse, but notice the heart lifted up, and then cast down to the ground, and seen by kings, shows why some could conclude it could be post Eden?

  11. #26

    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Revelation 12:5-7
    5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

    7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

    But verse 7 starts with "Then war broke out in heaven" the key word being "Then" So this war happens after the the child is taken back up to heaven.
    For such a key word, the translators in the NIV have done it again (I presume NIV) "then" is predominantly translated here as "And"



    Yes he is in heaven where God is God asked "where have you been" not Where are you "have you been" is where was satan. Going to and fro the earth is where satan was.
    Yet there is no text here that says Satan is heaven, even the context of Job is whats happening is on earth, The sons of God presenting themselves here has to be Job and other Godly men, for angels are continually in the presence of God how can they present themselves more presently?

    Gabriel when talking to Mary says he stands before God, One could paraphrase that he continually is in the presence of God, In rev the angels are standing before God

    also Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.



    Yes it was future of when satan said it I agree and so does my position on this.
    Cool



    Satan is not the little horn that was Antiochus Epiphanies
    not even a type? The little horn grows up and reaches to the host of heaven, to throw some of the host down to the ground...



    He could enter heaven when summoned
    I know and agree God dwells in heaven, but Satan does not need summoned to heaven so God can have a catch up with him, God is omnipotent he is everywhere at once, he can talk to him anywhere.







    Satan was a murder from the beginning as his intention was to kill all people by tempting us to sin and sin results in death. Satan wanted to kill our bodies
    Actually if I was to get down to the nitty gritty I believe it was Gods plan all along for Adam to sin and for sin to enter the world and effect all creation, I don't think Satan managed to foil Gods plan here by making us sinners, but I take it you believe Satan murdered Adam and Eve, and therefore all mankind in type?



    Satan was created perfect just like us but we all have free will and we can not be perfect when it is our choice as only God is perfect.
    hmmm, this could go down a long side road, how does God create free choice?

    I don't think that satan tried to indwell the body of Moses that is not what the text says and I have never heard of that before did you hear it somewhere else? I don't think that satan can enter any dead body and the bible does not say that he will enter the antichrist's dead body to bring him back to life to do that he would have the same power as God and only God can bring the dead back to life.
    Wait Marty, you cant tell me im reading things into the text when you tell me Job shows us Satan is actually in heaven can you??

    did you hear it somewhere else?
    Um, yea I have, If I reveal the source will you then agree with it if you think the source is reputable?

    And the bible does not say that he will enter the antichrist's dead body to bring him back to life to do that he would have the same power as God and only God can bring the dead back to life
    that's ok, we can disagree it probably comes down to the understanding of the mortal wound, and whether the beast is the Antichrist etc etc

  12. #27

    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Genesis 3:1-7
    Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

    2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

    4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

    In the text above Adam was actually the third one to sin. Satan first as he deceived and lied to Eve then Eve was the second one to sin as she disobeyed God and ate the fruit and then Adam was third as he also ate the fruit
    The problem is though, romans 5 attributes the first sin to Adam, I can see how you think how you think and I can even see how it makes sense, but that doesn’t make it scriptural for even if something doesn’t appear to make sense I will still believe scripture over and above what appears to make sense for that is putting trust in the Word of God and not myself.

    Then once one believes something explicit like romans 5 and the first Adam is responsible for sin entering creation as in Cor 15 then cannot the rest of scripture line up which is the litmus test, or cannot implicit verses have more than one way to look at them for its risky to build doctrinal foundations on man’s thinking and implicit text. There is an irony in this for how was Eve deceived.

    I like how you have alluded sin to disobedience to God, there was only one command in Eden and the command was to Adam, in other words if Eve ate of the fruit then sin would not have entered the world, her eyes would not have been opened and she would not have noticed her nakedness, which is how the story in genesis is played out, after Adam ate and Eve saw that Adam ate then their eyes were opened and they knew they were naked.

    Eve played a role as did Satan and she reaped what she sowed but she did not sin for sin is disobedience to Gods word, for example If God told David to kill every man, woman and child in Moab then it would be a sin for him not to kill them all, and if God told Moses to stay his hand against Moab it would be sin for him to kill one person in Moab.


    Anyway the fact Eve was deceived, also means Adam wasn’t deceived so he wilfully disobeyed God and sinned.
    I hate using made up examples for they are more inaccurate than the bible example but here goes.

    I have three kids, I tell the middle kid he is not allowed to watch TV today and if he does ill not spare the rod, when he and the youngest arrive home from school they play outside, When the eldest arrives home from work he tells them batman is on tv, the youngest tells them dad said they are not allowed to watch TV, the eldest asks really? And tells him Nah it will be alright.

    If the scenario plays out and the middle kid doesn’t watch tv and the other two do, then they have not disobeyed me and I will not discipline anyone, if the middle kid does watch tv, he will get the rod and the other two will have their consequences for assisting in him disobeying me.

    While not exact, this is similar to how I see the account in Genesis played out.

    There are that many unknowns in the Genesis account that I can’t state with certainty, anything like was being put out of Eden part of the process of dying beginning to die, etc

    Also what was Satan allowed and not allowed to do is pure speculation, Satan was allowed to kill Jobs family do you think this was a sin? But there is one thing I know that is not speculation and that is by Adam sin entered the world.

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    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Yet there is no text here that says Satan is heaven, even the context of Job is whats happening is on earth, The sons of God presenting themselves here has to be Job and other Godly men, for angels are continually in the presence of God how can they present themselves more presently?

    Gabriel when talking to Mary says he stands before God, One could paraphrase that he continually is in the presence of God, In rev the angels are standing before God

    also Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
    I really can't see why you can't accept this happens in heaven. Angles are not always standing in the presence of God as Gabriel wasn't when he was talking to Mary or visiting Daniel in the book of Daniel you can not always take things so literal like when God asked satan were he had been we know that God already knew were he had been.

    Actually if I was to get down to the nitty gritty I believe it was Gods plan all along for Adam to sin and for sin to enter the world and effect all creation, I don't think Satan managed to foil Gods plan here by making us sinners, but I take it you believe Satan murdered Adam and Eve, and therefore all mankind in type?
    No it was never Gods plan for us to sin as God does not want us to sin it was our free will to sin but Gods plan was the salvation from our sin.

    hmmm, this could go down a long side road, how does God create free choice?
    God gave us free will


    Galatians 5:13
    13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

    John 7:17
    17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

    Wait Marty, you cant tell me im reading things into the text when you tell me Job shows us Satan is actually in heaven can you??
    Job 1:6-7
    6 One day the angels[a] came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan[b] also came with them. 7 The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

    Satan answered the Lord, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

    God dwells in heaven and satan says that he came FROM roaming the earth as in he isn't there anymore

    Um, yea I have, If I reveal the source will you then agree with it if you think the source is reputable?
    Who was it? Even if they are reputable they can still make mistakes its just that I have never heard that before and the bible doesn't refer to it

  14. #29
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    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    The problem is though, romans 5 attributes the first sin to Adam, I can see how you think how you think and I can even see how it makes sense, but that doesn’t make it scriptural for even if something doesn’t appear to make sense I will still believe scripture over and above what appears to make sense for that is putting trust in the Word of God and not myself.
    But the verse I provided are also scripture and it is a fact that Eve sinned first but that still doesn't contradict Romans 5. Sin did enter the world through Adam as he was the first man and we are his seed we now have a sinful nature and we all came from him even Eve.

    Eve knew that it was wrong and she even revealed it to the serpent and paid for the consequences of her actions she wanted to be as great as God

    I have three kids, I tell the middle kid he is not allowed to watch TV today and if he does ill not spare the rod, when he and the youngest arrive home from school they play outside, When the eldest arrives home from work he tells them batman is on tv, the youngest tells them dad said they are not allowed to watch TV, the eldest asks really? And tells him Nah it will be alright.

    If the scenario plays out and the middle kid doesn’t watch tv and the other two do, then they have not disobeyed me and I will not discipline anyone, if the middle kid does watch tv, he will get the rod and the other two will have their consequences for assisting in him disobeying me.
    I see what you are saying but the circumstances are different Eve knew the rule and Yes God did only tell Adam Eve still knew that it was wrong and still did it out of pride to be like God and the proof is that She had to deal with the consequences and was punished by God see below

    Genesis 3:16
    16 To the woman he said,

    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
    with painful labor you will give birth to children.
    Your desire will be for your husband,
    and he will rule over you.”

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    Re: How God helped the church when satan was cast out of heaven

    Eve played a role as did Satan and she reaped what she sowed but she did not sin for sin is disobedience to Gods word,
    Of course she did why do you think that satan tempted Eve and not Adam? He knew she desired to be like God

    James 1:13-16

    13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. 16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.

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