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Thread: under the Law or not?

  1. #1

    under the Law or not?

    I've noticed on this Forum, and throughout my Christian life, that Christians constantly want to "sneak back" under the Law, reasserting the need to follow Sabbath Law, the Law of Tithing, the Law of Head Covering, etc. etc. I can hear Martin Luther turning in his grave reasserting the need to dispose of the *entirety* of the Law, including all 10 Commandments, in order to make it clear that we are *saved by grace,* and not by one single thing that we can do by works!

    This has zero to do with not doing good deeds or with performing works under the New Covenant. Those works are done by obeying the commandments of Christ, which is in effect a new Law--not the old Law of Moses. We love God, and we love our neighbors, and this requires *works* as such. So we're not talking about doing good deeds, but rather, about performing according to written rules as they existed under the Law of Moses. We are *not* under that system, as Paul reiterated time and again.

    So I'd like to suggest that Christians have a problem with this for the same reason that Israel found it difficult to get close to their holy God. Not only was Israel fearful of getting too close to hear from God, but God warned them as well not to get too close, unless called upon to do so in a very specific way.

    Today we are invited by God to get close *in the name of Jesus.* This means we rely on him completely for our good works, by working in association with him, attributing to his Spirit the merit in our works. By revering his name we honor the memory of what he was like, as recorded in the Scriptures, and we acknowledge that he still lives through us via his Spirit.

    But Christians, fearful of getting too close to God, for whatever reason, may affix rules to live by, rather than consulting with Him in prayer. Life is lived moment by moment in constant prayer, rather than by consulting a set of rules.

    So I think we need to completely dispose of the "set of rules" offered us by the Law of Moses. We need, I think, to stop trying to "explain the Law in a NT sense," practicing Sabbath Law by Sunday Worship, practicing the Law of Tithing by fixing a strict 10% of our wages, etc. We need to *completely* dispose of the rules of the Law, and do strictly what NT theology calls on us to do, which is to pray regularly, and walk with the Lord always, loving God and loving our neighbor in accordance with the holiness that comes through His Spirit.

  2. #2
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    Re: under the Law or not?

    Well written. I would like to add a small portion - the reason for the Law given to Israel, and not anybody else.

    God created man in His image and likeness to have dominion over the earth, its environs of sea and sky, and all that is in them, and to fence about and bring a Garden of fellowship with God to order. When Israel was chosen out of all nations, God's idea had not changed a wit. Israel where to go into the Land, subdue it, cast out the nations who were polluting the Land, have God's morality, and build a House of Fellowship. And as a result they would be a testimony before all other nations that God is righteous and blesses and protects the righteous. The Covenant that initially got them into the Land was that of PROMISE made with Abraham over 400 years before. The Covenant of LAW was given 430 years later so that Israel could maintain their position in the Good Land. There are many scriptures to this effect but here is one - Deuteronomy 30:15-20;

    15 "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
    16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
    17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
    18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
    19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."


    The Law was there to create a SEPARATE People, who had God's morality, who treated the earth correctly and who were ritually clean so that a Holy God could dwell AMONG them, albeit veiled, without violating His holiness. The flesh is forever defiled, and so with moral living, correct clothing, correct diet, correct sexual practices, and correct agricultural practices, Israel were made worthy to host the God of the universe.

    Now, the end of the matter is well known. Israel broke this Covenant and were piecemeal cast out of their Good Land. Starting with Nebuchadnezzar, the rulership of the earth fell totally into the hands of the Gentiles, and the Time of Gentile dominion of the earth started. Without their Land, the Law profits Israel NOTHING. And this testimony is born out by the fact that the keeping of the Law is intimately connected with the Temple. With no City and no Temple, THE LAW IS MOOT. Even with Israel restored today NO JEW can keep the Law because there is no Temple there. And if one breaks one Law, he is guilty of ALL LAWS (Deut.27:26; Gal.3:10; Jas.2:10). By the time Judah and Benjamin were cast out, God had given Israel a bill of divorce, called them "lo-ammi" (you are NOT my people) and declared the Covenant, or Contract of Law as BROKEN. God does not patch things up, and so His prophets predict a future day when Israel will be restored to their Land under blessing, but to prevent another such catastrophe of being cast out, a New Covenant is to be made with Israel on a better foundation.

    This New Covenant serves exactly the same purpose as the Old. It makes Israel a worthy nation to host Emmanuel, Who will live AMONG them after His return.

    The Church is A WHOLE DIFFERENT MATTER! God does not live AMONG the Church. He lives IN the members of the Church and is AMONG them in their Assembling. With this grand and progressive step, HOW THEN DOES GOD DEAL WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OF BEING A SEPARATE PEOPLE BUT WHO ARE STILL IN THE FLESH? God solves this in a sovereign way.
    1. Israel have their origin IN Abraham via Isaac. That is, though they be a special nation THEY ARE STILL IN ADAM'S FLESH. So they inherit all of Adam's downside. Thus, the Law addresses THE FLESH and it shortcomings.
    2. The Church has its origin IN Christ (Eph.1:4). They are a New Creature with all the things of Christ, and all that He achieved IMPUTED to them. But the flesh still remains, so God, in the same principle, counts the Christian to HAVE GONE ONTO THE CROSS WITH CHRIST (Rom.6:1-7; Gal.2:20). Thus, the problem of the flesh is solved, NOT BY A SET OF LAWS, BUT BY TOTAL REMOVAL IN DEATH. The flesh is counted to have DIED and been replaced by a resurrection body (Rom.6:11). THUS, THE LAW IS NOT REQUIRED FOR THE CHURCH, and even worse, if a member of the Church returns to the Law, he/she is stating before men, angels and demons that Christ's death and resurrection was not good enough.

    It is at once clear that the Law of Moses is a STUMBLING BLOCK for any Christian. While the Law is vital for the Jew when he lives in his Good Land, the Law IS A SNARE TO THE CHRISTIAN. Any attempt by a Christian to adhere to the Law is to put Christ an His Work aside as INSUFFICIENT! There are two Books in the new Testament that appear to be out of flavor with the age of grace. They are Galatians and Hebrews. They speak harshly, condemningly and threateningly. Why? Because any attempt by a Christian to return to Moses is not just a mistake. IT SAYS TO THE FATHER THAT THE SON'S WORK WAS USELESS AND TO BE DENIED. Now, it is one thing to sin. But it is fully another thing to demean the wonderful work of Christ before His Father. I shudder to think of the consequences for even intimating this!

  3. #3
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    Re: under the Law or not?

    Walls - THUS, THE LAW IS NOT REQUIRED FOR THE CHURCH, and even worse, if a member of the Church returns to the Law, he/she is stating before men, angels and demons that Christ's death and resurrection was not good enough. Any attempt by a Christian to adhere to the Law is to put Christ an His Work aside as INSUFFICIENT!

    Amen!

    Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

    Romans 4:13 - For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

  4. #4

    Re: under the Law or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've noticed on this Forum, and throughout my Christian life, that Christians constantly want to "sneak back" under the Law, reasserting the need to follow Sabbath Law, the Law of Tithing, the Law of Head Covering, etc. etc. I can hear Martin Luther turning in his grave reasserting the need to dispose of the *entirety* of the Law, including all 10 Commandments, in order to make it clear that we are *saved by grace,* and not by one single thing that we can do by works!

    This has zero to do with not doing good deeds or with performing works under the New Covenant. Those works are done by obeying the commandments of Christ, which is in effect a new Law--not the old Law of Moses. We love God, and we love our neighbors, and this requires *works* as such. So we're not talking about doing good deeds, but rather, about performing according to written rules as they existed under the Law of Moses. We are *not* under that system, as Paul reiterated time and again.

    So I'd like to suggest that Christians have a problem with this for the same reason that Israel found it difficult to get close to their holy God. Not only was Israel fearful of getting too close to hear from God, but God warned them as well not to get too close, unless called upon to do so in a very specific way.

    Today we are invited by God to get close *in the name of Jesus.* This means we rely on him completely for our good works, by working in association with him, attributing to his Spirit the merit in our works. By revering his name we honor the memory of what he was like, as recorded in the Scriptures, and we acknowledge that he still lives through us via his Spirit.

    But Christians, fearful of getting too close to God, for whatever reason, may affix rules to live by, rather than consulting with Him in prayer. Life is lived moment by moment in constant prayer, rather than by consulting a set of rules.

    So I think we need to completely dispose of the "set of rules" offered us by the Law of Moses. We need, I think, to stop trying to "explain the Law in a NT sense," practicing Sabbath Law by Sunday Worship, practicing the Law of Tithing by fixing a strict 10% of our wages, etc. We need to *completely* dispose of the rules of the Law, and do strictly what NT theology calls on us to do, which is to pray regularly, and walk with the Lord always, loving God and loving our neighbor in accordance with the holiness that comes through His Spirit.
    I'd say you live under the law! These are pretty strong words.

    Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    The question then becomes whom is the higher power to you? God or government? You are simply choosing what laws you honor. The same goes for everyone. You choose government over the 10 commandments. It becomes pretty obvious by those that post which laws they choose to learn and live by. You had to learn them that didn't happen by the Spirit nor by loving you neighbor. You chose to learn and live by the laws you choose.

    I wouldn't hold it against someone that is able to do both as Jesus did. He taught on the ten commandments giving honor to them, said they should be taught. So I wouldn't hold it against anyone that is able to do both as Jesus did.

    I must say I am surprised at you randyk, being raised Lutheran, as so was I school and all, and the 10 commandments were part of a big teaching in school and church. So I don't understand your big distaste for the commandments. We were taught to love and honor them.

  5. #5

    Re: under the Law or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Well written. I would like to add a small portion - the reason for the Law given to Israel, and not anybody else.

    God created man in His image and likeness to have dominion over the earth, its environs of sea and sky, and all that is in them, and to fence about and bring a Garden of fellowship with God to order. When Israel was chosen out of all nations, God's idea had not changed a wit. Israel where to go into the Land, subdue it, cast out the nations who were polluting the Land, have God's morality, and build a House of Fellowship. And as a result they would be a testimony before all other nations that God is righteous and blesses and protects the righteous. The Covenant that initially got them into the Land was that of PROMISE made with Abraham over 400 years before. The Covenant of LAW was given 430 years later so that Israel could maintain their position in the Good Land. There are many scriptures to this effect but here is one - Deuteronomy 30:15-20;

    15 "See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
    16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
    17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
    18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
    19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."


    The Law was there to create a SEPARATE People, who had God's morality, who treated the earth correctly and who were ritually clean so that a Holy God could dwell AMONG them, albeit veiled, without violating His holiness. The flesh is forever defiled, and so with moral living, correct clothing, correct diet, correct sexual practices, and correct agricultural practices, Israel were made worthy to host the God of the universe.

    Now, the end of the matter is well known. Israel broke this Covenant and were piecemeal cast out of their Good Land. Starting with Nebuchadnezzar, the rulership of the earth fell totally into the hands of the Gentiles, and the Time of Gentile dominion of the earth started. Without their Land, the Law profits Israel NOTHING. And this testimony is born out by the fact that the keeping of the Law is intimately connected with the Temple. With no City and no Temple, THE LAW IS MOOT. Even with Israel restored today NO JEW can keep the Law because there is no Temple there. And if one breaks one Law, he is guilty of ALL LAWS (Deut.27:26; Gal.3:10; Jas.2:10). By the time Judah and Benjamin were cast out, God had given Israel a bill of divorce, called them "lo-ammi" (you are NOT my people) and declared the Covenant, or Contract of Law as BROKEN. God does not patch things up, and so His prophets predict a future day when Israel will be restored to their Land under blessing, but to prevent another such catastrophe of being cast out, a New Covenant is to be made with Israel on a better foundation.

    This New Covenant serves exactly the same purpose as the Old. It makes Israel a worthy nation to host Emmanuel, Who will live AMONG them after His return.

    The Church is A WHOLE DIFFERENT MATTER! God does not live AMONG the Church. He lives IN the members of the Church and is AMONG them in their Assembling. With this grand and progressive step, HOW THEN DOES GOD DEAL WITH THE REQUIREMENTS OF BEING A SEPARATE PEOPLE BUT WHO ARE STILL IN THE FLESH? God solves this in a sovereign way.
    1. Israel have their origin IN Abraham via Isaac. That is, though they be a special nation THEY ARE STILL IN ADAM'S FLESH. So they inherit all of Adam's downside. Thus, the Law addresses THE FLESH and it shortcomings.
    2. The Church has its origin IN Christ (Eph.1:4). They are a New Creature with all the things of Christ, and all that He achieved IMPUTED to them. But the flesh still remains, so God, in the same principle, counts the Christian to HAVE GONE ONTO THE CROSS WITH CHRIST (Rom.6:1-7; Gal.2:20). Thus, the problem of the flesh is solved, NOT BY A SET OF LAWS, BUT BY TOTAL REMOVAL IN DEATH. The flesh is counted to have DIED and been replaced by a resurrection body (Rom.6:11). THUS, THE LAW IS NOT REQUIRED FOR THE CHURCH, and even worse, if a member of the Church returns to the Law, he/she is stating before men, angels and demons that Christ's death and resurrection was not good enough.

    It is at once clear that the Law of Moses is a STUMBLING BLOCK for any Christian. While the Law is vital for the Jew when he lives in his Good Land, the Law IS A SNARE TO THE CHRISTIAN. Any attempt by a Christian to adhere to the Law is to put Christ an His Work aside as INSUFFICIENT! There are two Books in the new Testament that appear to be out of flavor with the age of grace. They are Galatians and Hebrews. They speak harshly, condemningly and threateningly. Why? Because any attempt by a Christian to return to Moses is not just a mistake. IT SAYS TO THE FATHER THAT THE SON'S WORK WAS USELESS AND TO BE DENIED. Now, it is one thing to sin. But it is fully another thing to demean the wonderful work of Christ before His Father. I shudder to think of the consequences for even intimating this!
    Clearly we agree on some of this, but I'm a bit confused about your version of the "New Covenant for Israel?" Are you describing this as a renewal of the Law, whereas for the Church the Gospel is something different?

    I don't believe the Law is valid for anybody anymore--certainly not for the universal Church, because the lion's share of it is not Israel at all. But a remnant of Israel is in the Church, and thus, they are not under the Law either, but rather, in conformity with nations outside of Israel who never were under the Law.

    Neither is Israel today supposed to be under the Law, since Christ initiated the New Covenant precisely for them, starting with a remnant of Christians and hoping to eventually result in the full restoration of the nation under the Christian religion.

    If I'm missing what you're saying, please explain.

  6. #6

    Re: under the Law or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I'd say you live under the law! These are pretty strong words.

    Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    The question then becomes whom is the higher power to you? God or government? You are simply choosing what laws you honor. The same goes for everyone. You choose government over the 10 commandments. It becomes pretty obvious by those that post which laws they choose to learn and live by. You had to learn them that didn't happen by the Spirit nor by loving you neighbor. You chose to learn and live by the laws you choose.

    I wouldn't hold it against someone that is able to do both as Jesus did. He taught on the ten commandments giving honor to them, said they should be taught. So I wouldn't hold it against anyone that is able to do both as Jesus did.

    I must say I am surprised at you randyk, being raised Lutheran, as so was I school and all, and the 10 commandments were part of a big teaching in school and church. So I don't understand your big distaste for the commandments. We were taught to love and honor them.
    I wasn't just taught Luther's Small Catechism, but I've also read Luther himself, as well as the history of Luther. He was so strongly against reviving the Law that Protestant Theology reaffirms Paul's view that no part of the Law should be retained, including circumcision, observance of days, or any element that had been required under the Law depicting Christ as a shadow.

    I am not saying that Christians are not under law. We do need to submit to our society and to its legal representatives. And the principles contained in the 10 Commandments are universal truths also present in Christianity.

    The point I'm trying to make, with respect to the 10 Commandments, is that it was being kept in compliance with a covenant between God and Israel. And Israel, if they were to keep the 10 Commandments, also had to keep the whole Law--all 613 or so laws! If they were to be blessed, they had to observe all of God's requirements. That is what Jesus meant in Matthew 5.

    Mat 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

    When Jesus said this the covenant of Law was still in effect. And Jesus was just asserting this fact. If one was to observe God's Law he was required to keep not just the 10 Commandments, but the total requirements of the Law!

    And that's why I point out that Christians do *not* observe the 10 Commandments, because in doing so they would be acknowledging that the Jewish People are still under the totality of the Law. And that is neither possible nor desirable, since the superstructure of the Law is no longer there, and since at any rate the Law could only remedy sin on a temporary basis. Final justification is much to be preferred and the only option, in our view.

    I'm not, however, saying that the principles contained in the 10 Commandments are not still valid under the New Covenant. The righteousness contained in these 10 Commandments are present in Jesus, though not in precisely the same form. They do not rely upon *Israel's observance* of the Law. Instead, they rely on *Jesus' righteousness,* which is higher than the Law. He certainly wasn't, for example, under the law of Sabbath--the 4th Commandment--since that Law commanded impure Israel to "rest." Jesus never had to rest from evil works that he did not have!

    So don't confuse my idea of Christian righteousness with antinomianism. I believe Christians are under law, though it isn't the law of the Old Covenant. Rather, the Law bore testimony to the righteousness now revealed in Christ, who never was under the Law. His righteousness supersedes the Law, since the Old Covenant has failed and has now passed away. Law continues as universal moral principles for man. But it is established under a different covenant. The universal moral principles present under the Law have had to be rewritten as a righteousness that Christ alone demonstrated--not as something man could live up to unless it is by participation in him.

  7. #7
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    Re: under the Law or not?

    People love the Law because in it they can judge someone elseís sin to justify their sin

    And of course there are those who donít like the idea of God being in control of someoneís life instead of their legalism

  8. #8

    Re: under the Law or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    People love the Law because in it they can judge someone else’s sin to justify their sin

    And of course there are those who don’t like the idea of God being in control of someone’s life instead of their legalism
    I think this is absolutely true! Thank you. Actually, brilliant, as the English say.

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    Re: under the Law or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Walls - THUS, THE LAW IS NOT REQUIRED FOR THE CHURCH, and even worse, if a member of the Church returns to the Law, he/she is stating before men, angels and demons that Christ's death and resurrection was not good enough. Any attempt by a Christian to adhere to the Law is to put Christ an His Work aside as INSUFFICIENT!

    Amen!

    Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

    Romans 4:13 - For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.
    Precisely. Absolutely. The sons of Abraham are only those of faith, and it has nothing to do with bloodline or ancestry. Only those who believe Jesus is the Christ are sons of Abraham. The law isn't for sons! It is for servants only. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had no law because they had faith. Faith is the much preferred method as it leads to God by grace. Just as Jesus said:

    John 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

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    Re: under the Law or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Clearly we agree on some of this, but I'm a bit confused about your version of the "New Covenant for Israel?" Are you describing this as a renewal of the Law, whereas for the Church the Gospel is something different?

    I don't believe the Law is valid for anybody anymore--certainly not for the universal Church, because the lion's share of it is not Israel at all. But a remnant of Israel is in the Church, and thus, they are not under the Law either, but rather, in conformity with nations outside of Israel who never were under the Law.

    Neither is Israel today supposed to be under the Law, since Christ initiated the New Covenant precisely for them, starting with a remnant of Christians and hoping to eventually result in the full restoration of the nation under the Christian religion.

    If I'm missing what you're saying, please explain.
    I think the difficulty lies, not only for you, and I (for many years), but for many Christians, in that they don't make difference between the peoples of this earth where scripture does. No-one will deny that one's future is dictated largely by one's origin. If a man is born to a homeless beggar in a cardboard shanty in Haiti, there are only certain possibilities for his future. But Prince Charles of England was born to a Queen and as long as he does not break too many laws of his country, he will, without any effort, ascend the throne of Great Britain. And nobody will deny that Israel was a chosen nation to be SEPARATE from the other nations, have the Covenants, have the Word or Oracles of God, and have the very God of the universe's presence in their midst (Rom.9:4). This was accorded to NO-ONE ELSE. And by this same God's decree, the neighbor of Israel, Moab, may not enter the congregation of Israel unto the tenth generation (Deut.23:3). That is, God makes a an irreconcilable difference to those born of Isaac and those born of Lot's incest, though they all be Shemites.

    Now consider this. This is the ORIGIN of the peoples of the world;
    1. The Gentiles or the Nations, born of the FLESH of Adam via Noah
    2. Israel, born of the FLESH Isaac via Abraham via Noah via Adam - a special people by God's choice but born to WOMEN (like John Baptist)
    3. The Church, BORN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, a spiritual people built into a spiritual House, having NO ETHNICITY TO THE FLESH

    Just like God's decree that the Moabite may not enter the congregation of Israel, any member of the Gentiles, born of the flesh, and any member of Israel, born of a special flesh, CANNOT BE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH WITHOUT THE BIRTH FROM ABOVE BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. As soon as either a Gentile or a Jew experiences the New Birth from Above by the Holy Spirit, their ORIGIN CHANGES, and the privileges and problems of the Church become their portion. Just as there is no way that a Moabite may enter Israel and partake of, "... the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rom.9:4), an Israelite cannot enter the Assembly of God - the Church, and partake of her privileges. They must have a new origin!

    Now the Covenant of Law, which was to ensure that Israel stayed in their Land and did not pollute the place where God lived, IS EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL. Neither the Gentiles NOR the Church has part of this Contract. It has its privileges and its penalties, AND THESE ARE MEANT FOR ISRAEL ONLY. God does not care one wit if a Gentile eats pork or a Church member has sex with his wife within a week after her period. But Israel may not do this under penalty. Now, when Israel thoroughly broke the Covenant of Law of Sinai, the ramifications of this breech of Contract apply only to Israel. And God, because He does not patch broken things up, but rather starts a new thing, will not patch up the Covenant of Sinai WITH ISRAEL. He will institute a NEW Covenant. This Covenant is STILL A COVENANT OF LAW, AND IT ONLY APPLIES TO ISRAEL as we see so clearly in Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:8. As Israel rejected their Messiah, they cannot possibly partake of the privileges and problems of the Church. They refused Christ, so their ORIGINAL position remains unchanged.

    They are still God's chosen NATION among the Nations. They still have the , "... the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises." But they FORFEIT, because of NO FAITH, the Rebirth by the Holy Spirit and all that goes with it. Nevertheless, because of the "Promises" (both to Abraham and the Prophets) they will be forgiven and restored to their Land. But to ensure that they are never driven out again, the New Covenant OF LAW is made with them, one which is a better Covenant, based on better Promises (Heb.7:22, 8:6). And the "better Promises" are that it will no longer be written on outward stones, but on the inward parts - the spirit and the heart. In this way, Israel will successfully KEEP and FULFILL the Law in the Millennium. It is the same Law, for the Law does not pass until after the Millennium when heaven and earth pass, but Israel are in a much better and stronger position to keep it - and do.

    Now only ONE THING needs to be explained. Why did our Lord Jesus introduce this New Covenant at the so-called "Last Supper"? Christians are confused into thinking that is has something to do with them - BUT IS HAS NOT. The blood of Christ is for the Christian's SIN and SINS, but the New Covenant is something EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL. So why is it part of the Lord's discourse? BECAUSE ALL COVENANTS WITH GOD HAVE TO BE RATIFIED IN BLOOD. Noah sacrificed and God accepted the Covenant of the Rainbow. Abraham sacrificed and was given the Covenant of Promise and Circumcision. The First Covenant of Law at Sinai is ratified by Moses sacrificing. It is, in Hebrews 9:19-20, "For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you." It needs the BLOOD of an innocent substitute to RATIFY a Covenant between God and man, seeing that man is a sinner.

    THE BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT IS TO RATIFY THE NEW COVENANT OF LAW WITH ISRAEL. The death of Christ achieves many things, and not all of them have to do with the Church. For instance in Hebrews 12:24 we learn, "And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." What is this? The answer is that Abel's blood cried for vengeance - and God, in His righteousness, cursed the earth into which Abel's blood flowed. But God cannot look upon a cursed earth forever, so Christ's blood does not call for justice. It calls for reconciliation. It is shed in lieu of Abel's blood and the justifiable curse can be lifted at God's discretion (Rom.8:19-23). This a work of Christ's blood that does not directly touch the Church, and Christ's blood shed as RATIFICATION for the New Covenant of Law DOES NOT TOUCH THE CHURCH EITHER.

    To summarize;
    • The Covenant of Law at Sinai is made exclusively with Israel - no other nation, and also NOT with the Church
    • The Covenant of Sinai was broken by Israel, but God, wary of His Promise to Abraham, promises a restoration of Israel to their Land
    • In order for Israel never to be cast out of their Land again, a New and Better Covenant OF THE SAME LAW is to be made when Christ returns
    • This New Covenant of Law is made with ISRAEL ALONE, just like the previous one at Sinai
    • This New Covenant MUST be ratified in blood. It is RATIFIED by none other blood than that of Jesus
    • This portion of Christ's death does not involve the church, just like that portion of Christ's death that deals with the restoration of the creature

  11. #11
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    Re: under the Law or not?

    There is only one new covenant who was made through Christ as the Mediator and Priest to all. A covenant that cannot change and is now in place for eternity, a covenant that do not end.

    See Gill

    Hebrews 8:8
    For finding fault with them,.... Both with the covenant, which had its faults, and with the people who continued not in it, and were therefore disregarded by the Lord, Heb_8:9
    he saith, behold, the days come (saith the Lord) when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; the words are cited from Jer_31:31 in which God promises a "new covenant"; so called, not because newly made; for with respect to its original constitution, it was made from eternity; Christ the Mediator of it, and with whom it was made, was set up from everlasting; and promises and blessings of grace were put into his hands before the world began: nor is it newly revealed, for it was made known to Adam, and in some measure to all the Old Testament saints, though it is more clearly revealed than it was; but it is so called in distinction from the former administration of it, which is waxen old, and vanished away; and with respect to the order of succession, it taking place upon the former being removed; and on account of the time of its more clear revelation and establishment being in the last days; and because of its mode of administration, which is different from the former, in a new way, and by the use of new ordinances; and because it is always new, its vigour and efficacy are perpetual; it will never be antiquated, or give place to another; and it provides for, and promises new things, a new heart, a new spirit, &c. to which may be added, that it is a famous, excellent covenant, there is none like it; just as an excellent song is called a new song. The persons with whom this covenant is promised to be made, are the houses of Israel and Judah; which being literally taken, had its fulfilment in the first times of the Gospel, through the ministry of John the Baptist, Christ, and his apostles, by whom this covenant was made known to God's elect among the twelve tribes; but being mystically understood, includes both Jews and Gentiles, the whole Israel of God; Israel not after the flesh, but after the Spirit; such as were Jews inwardly; God's elect of every nation: the word συντελεσω, rendered, "I will make", signifies, I will consummate, or finish, or end, or fulfil it; which shows the perfection of this covenant, and the imperfection of the former; and that what was typified in the first is fulfilled in this; and that it is now established and ratified by Christ; and is so finished, as to the manifestation and administration of it, that there will be no alteration made in it, nor any addition to it: the time of doing all this is called "the days to come"; the last days, the days of the Messiah, which were future in Jeremiah's time: and a "behold" is prefixed to the whole, as a note of attention, this being an affair of great moment and importance; and as a note of demonstration, or as pointing to something that was desired and expected; and as a note of admiration, it containing things wonderful and marvellous.

    Hebrews 8:10
    For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel,.... That is, this is the sum and substance of the covenant, which God promised to make with, or to make manifest and known to his chosen people, the true Israelites, under the Gospel dispensation; or the following are the several articles of that covenant, he proposed to consummate or finish, as before:
    after those days, saith the Lord; after the times of the Old Testament, when the Messiah shall be come, and the Gospel day shall take place. So the Jews (i) apply these days, when they represent the Israelites saying to Moses, O that he (God) would reveal (himself or will) to us a second time! O that he would kiss us with the kisses of his mouth, and that the doctrine of the law was fixed in our hearts; when he (Moses) said to them, this is not to be done now, but לעתיד לבא, in the time to come, (i.e. in the times of the Messiah,) as it is said, Jer_31:33.
    I will put my law, &c. and so (k) they are elsewhere applied to the same times. And the first article in it is,
    I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; by the laws of God are meant not the precepts of the ceremonial law, which were now abrogated, but either the moral law, and its commands; which is a transcript of the divine nature, was inscribed on Adam's heart in innocence, and some remains of it are even in the Gentiles, but greatly obliterated through the sin of man; and there is in men naturally a contrary disposition to it; in regeneration it is reinscribed by the Spirit of God; and great respect is had to it by regenerate persons, in which lies one part of their conformity to Christ: or else, since the word "law" signifies sometimes no other than a doctrine, an instruction, the doctrines of grace, of repentance towards God, of faith in Christ, and love to him, and every other doctrine may be intended; and the tables where, according to the tenor of this covenant, these are put and written, are two tables, as before, the "mind" and "heart"; but not two tables of stone, on which the law of Moses was written, partly that it might not be lost, through defect of memory, and partly to denote the firmness and stability of it, as also to point at the hardness of man's heart; but the fleshly tables of the heart; not that part of our flesh that is called the heart; but the souls of men, such hearts as are regenerated and sanctified by the Spirit of God, and such minds as are renewed by him: and the "putting" of them into the mind, designs the knowledge of them, which God gives; as of the moral law, of its spirituality and perfection, showing that there is no life and righteousness by it, that it is fulfilled by Christ, and is a rule of conversation to the saints; and of all other laws, ordinances, and doctrines of Christ: and the "writing" them in, or on the heart, intends a filling the soul with love and affection to them, so that it regards them singly and heartily; and a powerful inclination of the heart to be subject to them, through the efficacious grace of God; and which is done not with the ink of nature's power, but with the Spirit of the living God, 2Co_3:3.
    And I will be to them a God; not in such sense as he is the God of all mankind, or as he was the God of Israel in a distinguishing manner, but as he is the God of Christ, and of all the elect in him; and he is their God, not merely as the God of nature and providence, but as the God of all grace; he is so in a covenant way, and as in Christ, and by virtue of electing grace, and which is made manifest in the effectual calling; and as such, he has set his heart on them, and set them apart for himself; he saves them by his Son, adopts and regenerates them, justifies and sanctifies them, provides for them, protects and preserves them; and happy are they that are interested in this blessing of the covenant, which is preferable to everything else; they have everything, and can want no good thing; they need fear no enemy; all things work together for their good; and God continues to be their God in life and in death; so that they may depend on his love, be secure of his power, expect every needful supply of grace, and to be carried through every duty and trial, and to share in the first resurrection, and to enjoy eternal happiness:
    and they shall be to me a people; not in such sense as all mankind are, or the Jews were in a more peculiar respect, but as all God's elect are, whether Jews or Gentiles; and who are such whom God has loved with a special love, has chose in Christ, and given to him, and with whom he has made a covenant in him; whom Christ saves from their sins by his blood, and calls them by his grace and Spirit, and who give up themselves to him; these are a distinct and peculiar people, a people near unto the Lord, and who are all righteous in Christ, and are made willing in the day of his power on their souls.
    (i) Shirhashirim Rabba, fol. 3. 2. (k) Midrash Kohelet, fol. 64. 3.

  12. #12

    Re: under the Law or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think the difficulty lies, not only for you, and I (for many years), but for many Christians, in that they don't make difference between the peoples of this earth where scripture does. No-one will deny that one's future is dictated largely by one's origin. If a man is born to a homeless beggar in a cardboard shanty in Haiti, there are only certain possibilities for his future. But Prince Charles of England was born to a Queen and as long as he does not break too many laws of his country, he will, without any effort, ascend the throne of Great Britain. And nobody will deny that Israel was a chosen nation to be SEPARATE from the other nations, have the Covenants, have the Word or Oracles of God, and have the very God of the universe's presence in their midst (Rom.9:4). This was accorded to NO-ONE ELSE. And by this same God's decree, the neighbor of Israel, Moab, may not enter the congregation of Israel unto the tenth generation (Deut.23:3). That is, God makes a an irreconcilable difference to those born of Isaac and those born of Lot's incest, though they all be Shemites.

    Now consider this. This is the ORIGIN of the peoples of the world;
    1. The Gentiles or the Nations, born of the FLESH of Adam via Noah
    2. Israel, born of the FLESH Isaac via Abraham via Noah via Adam - a special people by God's choice but born to WOMEN (like John Baptist)
    3. The Church, BORN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, a spiritual people built into a spiritual House, having NO ETHNICITY TO THE FLESH

    Just like God's decree that the Moabite may not enter the congregation of Israel, any member of the Gentiles, born of the flesh, and any member of Israel, born of a special flesh, CANNOT BE A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH WITHOUT THE BIRTH FROM ABOVE BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. As soon as either a Gentile or a Jew experiences the New Birth from Above by the Holy Spirit, their ORIGIN CHANGES, and the privileges and problems of the Church become their portion. Just as there is no way that a Moabite may enter Israel and partake of, "... the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rom.9:4), an Israelite cannot enter the Assembly of God - the Church, and partake of her privileges. They must have a new origin!

    Now the Covenant of Law, which was to ensure that Israel stayed in their Land and did not pollute the place where God lived, IS EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL. Neither the Gentiles NOR the Church has part of this Contract. It has its privileges and its penalties, AND THESE ARE MEANT FOR ISRAEL ONLY. God does not care one wit if a Gentile eats pork or a Church member has sex with his wife within a week after her period. But Israel may not do this under penalty. Now, when Israel thoroughly broke the Covenant of Law of Sinai, the ramifications of this breech of Contract apply only to Israel. And God, because He does not patch broken things up, but rather starts a new thing, will not patch up the Covenant of Sinai WITH ISRAEL. He will institute a NEW Covenant. This Covenant is STILL A COVENANT OF LAW, AND IT ONLY APPLIES TO ISRAEL as we see so clearly in Jeremiah 31:31 and Hebrews 8:8. As Israel rejected their Messiah, they cannot possibly partake of the privileges and problems of the Church. They refused Christ, so their ORIGINAL position remains unchanged.

    They are still God's chosen NATION among the Nations. They still have the , "... the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises." But they FORFEIT, because of NO FAITH, the Rebirth by the Holy Spirit and all that goes with it. Nevertheless, because of the "Promises" (both to Abraham and the Prophets) they will be forgiven and restored to their Land. But to ensure that they are never driven out again, the New Covenant OF LAW is made with them, one which is a better Covenant, based on better Promises (Heb.7:22, 8:6). And the "better Promises" are that it will no longer be written on outward stones, but on the inward parts - the spirit and the heart. In this way, Israel will successfully KEEP and FULFILL the Law in the Millennium. It is the same Law, for the Law does not pass until after the Millennium when heaven and earth pass, but Israel are in a much better and stronger position to keep it - and do.

    Now only ONE THING needs to be explained. Why did our Lord Jesus introduce this New Covenant at the so-called "Last Supper"? Christians are confused into thinking that is has something to do with them - BUT IS HAS NOT. The blood of Christ is for the Christian's SIN and SINS, but the New Covenant is something EXCLUSIVE TO ISRAEL. So why is it part of the Lord's discourse? BECAUSE ALL COVENANTS WITH GOD HAVE TO BE RATIFIED IN BLOOD. Noah sacrificed and God accepted the Covenant of the Rainbow. Abraham sacrificed and was given the Covenant of Promise and Circumcision. The First Covenant of Law at Sinai is ratified by Moses sacrificing. It is, in Hebrews 9:19-20, "For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you." It needs the BLOOD of an innocent substitute to RATIFY a Covenant between God and man, seeing that man is a sinner.

    THE BLOOD OF THE NEW COVENANT IS TO RATIFY THE NEW COVENANT OF LAW WITH ISRAEL. The death of Christ achieves many things, and not all of them have to do with the Church. For instance in Hebrews 12:24 we learn, "And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel." What is this? The answer is that Abel's blood cried for vengeance - and God, in His righteousness, cursed the earth into which Abel's blood flowed. But God cannot look upon a cursed earth forever, so Christ's blood does not call for justice. It calls for reconciliation. It is shed in lieu of Abel's blood and the justifiable curse can be lifted at God's discretion (Rom.8:19-23). This a work of Christ's blood that does not directly touch the Church, and Christ's blood shed as RATIFICATION for the New Covenant of Law DOES NOT TOUCH THE CHURCH EITHER.

    To summarize;
    • The Covenant of Law at Sinai is made exclusively with Israel - no other nation, and also NOT with the Church
    • The Covenant of Sinai was broken by Israel, but God, wary of His Promise to Abraham, promises a restoration of Israel to their Land
    • In order for Israel never to be cast out of their Land again, a New and Better Covenant OF THE SAME LAW is to be made when Christ returns
    • This New Covenant of Law is made with ISRAEL ALONE, just like the previous one at Sinai
    • This New Covenant MUST be ratified in blood. It is RATIFIED by none other blood than that of Jesus
    • This portion of Christ's death does not involve the church, just like that portion of Christ's death that deals with the restoration of the creature
    This appears to be a form of Dispensationalism in which two systems of salvation are presented, one for Israel and another for the Church. I do not personally see this at all. There is only one way of salvation, and not a higher and lower form of salvation, one for Israel and one for the Church. The exclusive salvation of Christ is both for Israel and for the Church. God intends to bring the whole nation of Israel into the Church by making Israel a Christian nation.

    There is nothing strange about this. There have been many Christian nations in history. Israel will be but a kind of last Christian nation. Some are first and some are last. Israel is a kind of last Christian nation.

    I don't believe Jesus ever said the Law would last until the end of the universe. He just said the universe--man's home--could not pass away until something final had happened, the complete fulfillment of the Law. That happened when Christ died on the cross, completing all of the prophecies about him, and completing the sum total of his righteous obedience to the Father.

    Until such time, ie the death of Christ, Jesus was telling Israel that they had to obey all of the 613 or so laws of the Law of Moses. Every one was significant in the sense that God was requiring a perfect sacrifice for Israel's sin--a sinless offering. Jesus was that God-man who was sinless--the only one who could bring final forgiveness to Israel, and the only one who could bring eternal life to Israel.

    So it is out of respect for him that Israel was required to observe *all* of the commandments--not because Israel could complete these requirements perfectly, but that in their repentance and purification ceremonies they would pay homage to the fact they are sorry for all their sins committed against God.

  13. #13
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    Re: under the Law or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This appears to be a form of Dispensationalism in which two systems of salvation are presented, one for Israel and another for the Church. I do not personally see this at all. There is only one way of salvation, and not a higher and lower form of salvation, one for Israel and one for the Church. The exclusive salvation of Christ is both for Israel and for the Church. God intends to bring the whole nation of Israel into the Church by making Israel a Christian nation.

    There is nothing strange about this. There have been many Christian nations in history. Israel will be but a kind of last Christian nation. Some are first and some are last. Israel is a kind of last Christian nation.

    I don't believe Jesus ever said the Law would last until the end of the universe. He just said the universe--man's home--could not pass away until something final had happened, the complete fulfillment of the Law. That happened when Christ died on the cross, completing all of the prophecies about him, and completing the sum total of his righteous obedience to the Father.

    Until such time, ie the death of Christ, Jesus was telling Israel that they had to obey all of the 613 or so laws of the Law of Moses. Every one was significant in the sense that God was requiring a perfect sacrifice for Israel's sin--a sinless offering. Jesus was that God-man who was sinless--the only one who could bring final forgiveness to Israel, and the only one who could bring eternal life to Israel.

    So it is out of respect for him that Israel was required to observe *all* of the commandments--not because Israel could complete these requirements perfectly, but that in their repentance and purification ceremonies they would pay homage to the fact they are sorry for all their sins committed against God.
    OK. You've made yourself clear, and I am familiar with your "beliefs". God bless.

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