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Thread: What was the real purpose of the Sabbath law?

  1. #91
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    Re: What was the real purpose of the Sabbath law?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Is the answer in your Bible?
    Are you making a statement or asking a question? Because I asked Fenris a question - I will gladly accept the answer if you have it. But I won't answer a rhetoric question when mine has not been answered.

  2. #92
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    Re: What was the real purpose of the Sabbath law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Are you making a statement or asking a question? Because I asked Fenris a question - I will gladly accept the answer if you have it. But I won't answer a rhetoric question when mine has not been answered.
    I'm asking the question. I haven't found anything in the Torah that promises eternal life. I was thinking you might have read something contrary to that.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  3. #93

    Re: What was the real purpose of the Sabbath law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Um, no. It's significant. You don't get to gloss over it. Judah is the kingdom that survived and returned, and God never "divorced" Judah. That's not a surface argument, it's the whole point.
    Okay then--you've heard all my arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    And he only mentions that God "divorced" Israel . And Isaiah says the exact opposite of what you do: That there was no "divorce".

    Again, you're confused. God doesn't grant divorce, yet they are divorced. Make up your mind.

    But we both agree that God doesn't issue a "divorce" to Judah.
    No, I certainly don't agree with that, unless you're referring to the Prophet speaking to Judah *before* she was divorced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    If you focus on the entire passage, you see that God doesn't annul the covenant. Plain language.
    It's sort of ambiguous but I've already agreed. The covenant God made with Abraham represented an eternal promise, which couldn't be broken. So although it appears as if Israel could annihilate the covenant of Moses between God and Israel, somehow God would manage to rebuild Israel through a faithful remnant. That's the Bible story as I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    But that isn't what it says at all. There are rewards for obedience and punishments for disobedience- including exile. But God specifically and clearly states, in plain language, that He won't break the covenant. Now who should I believe, you or Him?

    And there are Christian snake handlers. That doesn't make it a normative Christian practice.
    I specifically referenced historic Christianity, conservative Christianity, doctrinally orthodox Christianity. "Snake handlers" are an aberrant group. I'm referring to a rather large group of people--not a small sect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    None of them make the case for the covenant being annulled in 586BC.

    No, the purpose of the law is to carry out God's will in this world. Judaism didn't start in Israel, but in the Sinai, and Judaism has survived being without a land as well.
    Well that sounds just plain ignorant to me! Perhaps your own Jewish tradition wants to sidestep the plain fact that Israel is eternally linked to the land of Canaan? Maybe that's what is meant by "rabbinic interpretation?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    Which happened
    Yes, we talked about the ark going away after 586 BC. And my point is that since the ark was *required* under the Law of Moses that made temple worship a little different--perhaps even incomplete--after the restoration of the temple in Zerubbabel's time?

    You do seem to be right that the literal law can be altered over time, Israel not having to be in Canaan, the ark not having to be in the temple, and perhaps maybe not even needing the temple at all? Very similar to Christianity, as far as I'm concerned!

    But I do believe that Jeremiah's point about the ark going away indicated a change would eventually come, removing the temple worship altogether. And that also has happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    Gentiles always had the option of conversion. Ever hear of Ruth? Still, this new covenant is with Judah and Israel, not the nations of the world.
    Read: "consolation prize!" Messiah was to be messiah of the whole world--not, a Messiah for an elite Israel with their own special worship system, and then a 2nd-class worship system for the Gentiles, with separate bathroom facilities! God ain't like that, my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    No, it says the covenant won't be like the one at Sinai. It says nothing about the law. Because the law isn't changed.
    Sorry, but Sinai was all about law! If the new covenant is unlike Sinai, and Sinai was a covenant of law, then what you have is a new law. Logic 101.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    Again, conversion was always open for gentiles. But God listens to everyone. Have you read 1 Kings 8?
    For some reason Gentiles were not yet given to pass through the deep waters that Israel was given to pass through. To get cleansed from paganism was not an easy process, and Israel paid an expensive price to come through it!

    Today, I believe Gentile nations have had their chance with Christianity, having to try to dispose of paganism in their own cultural surroundings. Christianity is an equal opportunity religion. Judaism only offers "consolation prizes" to those perennially disinterested in emigrating to Israel (which is highly impractical).

    Perhaps Rabbinic Judaism has tried to make Judaism into a more universal religion, distilled from what used to be a primitive, exclusivistic religion? Are you Reformed or Orthodox, Fenris? (I'm supposing Orthodox from the pic?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    As for the foreigner who does not belong to your people Israel but has come from a distant land because of your name— for they will hear of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm—when they come and pray toward this temple, then hear from heaven, your dwelling place. Do whatever the foreigner asks of you, so that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your own people Israel, and may know that this house I have built bears your Name.
    Yes, I know the Scriptures pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    Yes, they were. Go read a history book. I don't have anything else on the subject.
    What information is available is at best of guess of what happened in ancient times with respect to Jewish immigration. Some things can certainly be known. Some things will certainly never be known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    The JEWISH people. Of Judah. Exiled by Babylon in 586BC. Not the the ten tribes. Exiled by Assyria. In 722BC.
    You're arguing an absurd point. What came to be known as "the Jewish People" have originated from many sources--many of these sources being completely unknowable, since their origins are from very ancient times!

    You *cannot* know that the 10 tribes completely assimilated. They most certainly could've been Hebrew groups in Diaspora, later blending in with what we now call "the Jewish People." You would have to do DNA testing on Jews today to see if they had the DNA of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris
    [I]You're talking about Jews in Italy. Trust me, then didn't get there from the Assyrian exile, which was in the opposite direction. But whatever, you already know everything.
    Just the opposite, I'm saying we *don't* know everything. If we don't even know the origin of Jews in Italy, who apparently dated from the early period of Roman rule, then we certainly don't know what happened hundreds of years earlier, when 10 tribes lost their tribal distinctions in the Assyrian Diaspora. Jewish groups were everywhere in Diaspora. Some of these *had* to be remnants of the 10 tribes. It sounds like you're trying to fit what we don't know into a preconceived view of Scriptures?

    Again, I'm open to learning. I just need facts, Fenris. I'm not a scholar.

  4. #94

    Re: What was the real purpose of the Sabbath law?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I beg to differ; Daniel 12:2 is indeed the dead coming back to life, but not as mortal. The righteous will rise to "immortality" and the wicked to everlasting contempt, ie hellfire. So it I think it's connected to heaven alright.
    I agree with you. I don't know precisely how the early Patriarchs and the Prophets viewed the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden. But I suspect they all hoped in an afterlife, in going back to the tree of life, eating of the fruit, and experiencing immortality.

  5. #95

    Re: What was the real purpose of the Sabbath law?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Is the answer in your Bible?
    Of course it's in both our Bibles! It's in the Hebrew Bible, which is also the Christian Bible. Israel followed the Law as a means of fulfilling the eternal covenant God made with Israel. And that covenant was an *everlasting promise,* assuring him that they would exist forever.

    The assumption has to be made that what God says must come true. God would be a liar if Israel ceases to exist and have a place in God's eternal Kingdom. At least that's how I see it.

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