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Thread: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

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    Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    This is a very important question in understanding this prophesy. Most equate the three to 3 of the 10 horns as verse 8 (bolded in red) does say "horns" which by no other investigation would infer 3 of the 10 horns are whom fell. However then verse 24 (bolded in blue) states they are kings which could infer that the Lion, Bear, and Leopard would be those whom fell. So which is it? let's investigate.

    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

    16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

    17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

    18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

    19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

    20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

    22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


    A. The four beasts are four kings. But also so are the 10 horns. Thus the possibility is that the three kings which fell are the first three beasts. Appears that horns and kings are synonymous.

    17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    B. The ten horns are seen still intact as one up until the second coming. So no way could these 10 be reduced to 7.

    Rev 17
    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
    14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    C. We see that it is 3 of the 4 beasts which fall.

    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    D. Why would the fourth beast overcome part of himself?

    The 10 horns are part of the fourth beast and would not cause them to fall. he will overcome the first three beasts and assume total power.


    In light of the investigation it is the lion, bear, and leopard whom fall. Thus affirms the following....

    1. These four beasts rise up together and are on earth at the same time.
    2. These four beasts are an end time kingdom. Demonic kingdom from the pit.
    3. These four beasts do not relate to Babylon, MP, nor Grecia.
    4. The fourth kingdom of Dan 2 are these four divisions and are not Rome.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Very interesting analysis. I appreciate it. I do think you are on to something here. Let me add something Jesus said.

    Matthew 12:25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?

    Everyone realizes that Jesus is saying that God is not divided against Himself. He is united as one. God's kingdom will endure forever. Therefore, it cannot be divided against itself. But, the reverse is also true. Satan's kingdom will certainly fall and be brought to desolation. Therefore, Jesus just gave us a heads up. Satan's kingdom WILL be divided against itself. Thus the wars and rumors of wars. So, I do believe you right to realize these beasts are not united. Rather they are at odds with one another.

    Since Jesus basically told us that satan's kingdom is divided against itself, we can better understand prophecy. (I don't want to get political, but we see this in politics often. Socialists and Communists are also provoking each other for control even though they are both on the same wicked side.)

    ---------------------------------------

    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    If your analysis is correct, then the only figure to accomplish this verse must be the false prophet. Four beasts arise. Then the fourth seizes control and has 10 kings. THEN, one who different than the first beasts, the false prophet, is the one to subdue the first three beasts. Then he gives allegiance to the fourth beast. Does that fit your understanding? Does it seem that it will be the false prophet that subdues the lion, bear, and leopard?

    Btw, I also agree that Daniel 7 has nothing to do with ancient kingdoms.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    They are 3 countries in the Middle East. the reasoning as follows:

    The ten horns only rise up at the end:
    Rev 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

    Three of those ten then come under the direct power of the antichrist:
    24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings.

    The region of the ten horns resembles the leopard according to Rev 13. The leopard is Alexander's Empire which covered the region from Greece/Egypt in the west to Afghanistan/Pakistan in the east. So the final beast resembles that Middle Eastern Empire. Conclusion: 3 of 10 Middle Eastern countries will fall under the direct control of the antichrist/little horn.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Hi Ross, interesting post

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Why would the fourth beast overcome part of himself?
    I believe the answer is in Hosea 13. God uses the leopard, lion, and bear kings against Israel and their wild beast king (anti-christ/4th beast). The antichrist overcomes the 3 kings for a time, until Christ himself descends and destroys him. After the antichrist is destroyed, the leopard, lion and bear resume their assault on Israel until they are completely repentant and Christ returns again to save them....

    Notice God says in Hosea "I will be like" the leopard, lion and bear...meaning he is using them for his purposes against Israel to cause them to come to repentance....

    Hosea 13:7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them 8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Hi Ross,
    I believe the answer is in Hosea 13. God uses the leopard, lion, and bear kings against Israel and their wild beast king (anti-christ/4th beast). The antichrist overcomes the 3 kings for a time, until Christ himself descends and destroys him.
    Excellent catch in Hosea!! I agree with the above I might note that the 4th rules for 42 months (rev 13) and the Lion, Bear, Leopard have their dominion taken away for a season (3 months) and a time (12 months) dan 7. Thus the 4th beast overcomes the others 15 months into his reign and for 27 months reigns alone.

    After the antichrist is destroyed, the leopard, lion and bear resume their assault on Israel until they are completely repentant and Christ returns again to save them....
    I do not agree with this point. The AC would be destroyed by the return of Christ.

    Notice God says in Hosea "I will be like" the leopard, lion and bear...meaning he is using them for his purposes against Israel to cause them to come to repentance....
    Yes and in anger appoints a king over them, the AC!

    Lion, bear, Leopard destroy Israel/Jerusalem

    7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
    8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
    9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

    Israel asks for a king in their iniquity. God gives them a king the AC but notes he will destroy him also. Note Ephraim will not get an inheritance.

    10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
    11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.
    12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.

    Now we see the reference to the woman. The city of Jerusalem/Israel. Note the woman in rev 12. We see that the "man child" would be the children of this woman.

    13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children.

    We see the reference to these coming up from the grave representing the dry bone of EZ 37 the tribes of Israel which rise up as a great army as the Lord will come with them from the east. They are the kings of the east in Rev.

    14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
    15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the Lord shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.


    Now also the first four seals are these 4 beasts. Seal 5 is the little horn.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Hi Ross, interesting post


    I believe the answer is in Hosea 13. God uses the leopard, lion, and bear kings against Israel and their wild beast king (anti-christ/4th beast). The antichrist overcomes the 3 kings for a time, until Christ himself descends and destroys him. After the antichrist is destroyed, the leopard, lion and bear resume their assault on Israel until they are completely repentant and Christ returns again to save them....

    Notice God says in Hosea "I will be like" the leopard, lion and bear...meaning he is using them for his purposes against Israel to cause them to come to repentance....

    Hosea 13:7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them 8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
    Interesting theory. What makes believe that Jesus will descend to destroy the antichrist and presumably return to heaven? And you say, after the AC is destroyed, the beasts (leopard, lion and bear) resume their assault on Israel and then, they have a change of heart and repent. And then Jesus returns a THIRD time to save Israel???

    Brother, this account is woefully inaccurate.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Weird, we are SPECIFICALLY told that the 10 horns are ALL on the 4th beast. Not a single horn is from any other beast, none of whom are mentioned as having horns.
    We are further told that three of these 10 are the ones uprooted.
    So I disagree with pretty much everything you are trying to say as it doesnt fit what is categorically stated.
    Last edited by ForHisglory; Nov 20th 2017 at 09:36 PM.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    This is a very important question in understanding this prophesy. Most equate the three to 3 of the 10 horns as verse 8 (bolded in red) does say "horns" which by no other investigation would infer 3 of the 10 horns are whom fell. However then verse 24 (bolded in blue) states they are kings which could infer that the Lion, Bear, and Leopard would be those whom fell. So which is it? let's investigate.

    7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

    10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

    14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

    16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

    17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

    18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

    19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

    20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

    21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

    22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.


    A. The four beasts are four kings. But also so are the 10 horns. Thus the possibility is that the three kings which fell are the first three beasts. Appears that horns and kings are synonymous.

    17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

    24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

    B. The ten horns are seen still intact as one up until the second coming. So no way could these 10 be reduced to 7.

    Rev 17
    12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
    14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    C. We see that it is 3 of the 4 beasts which fall.

    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    D. Why would the fourth beast overcome part of himself?

    The 10 horns are part of the fourth beast and would not cause them to fall. he will overcome the first three beasts and assume total power.


    In light of the investigation it is the lion, bear, and leopard whom fall. Thus affirms the following....

    1. These four beasts rise up together and are on earth at the same time.
    2. These four beasts are an end time kingdom. Demonic kingdom from the pit.
    3. These four beasts do not relate to Babylon, MP, nor Grecia.
    4. The fourth kingdom of Dan 2 are these four divisions and are not Rome.
    4 Beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome).

    The Little Horn is a 5th Beast, he receives power from the 10 Kings who freely GIVE IT to him.....Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    Three being overcome means that subsequent to them giving their power unto the Beast three of them see the error of their ways and try to come against the Anti-Christ/Beast and he kills three of the Horns/Kings that gave him their power/blessings as the King/President of the European Union.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Hi Ross,
    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Excellent catch in Hosea!! I agree with the above I might note that the 4th rules for 42 months (rev 13) and the Lion, Bear, Leopard have their dominion taken away for a season (3 months) and a time (12 months) dan 7. Thus the 4th beast overcomes the others 15 months into his reign and for 27 months reigns alone.



    I do not agree with this point. The AC would be destroyed by the return of Christ.



    Yes and in anger appoints a king over them, the AC!

    Lion, bear, Leopard destroy Israel/Jerusalem

    7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
    8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
    9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

    Israel asks for a king in their iniquity. God gives them a king the AC but notes he will destroy him also. Note Ephraim will not get an inheritance.

    10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
    11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.
    12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.

    Now we see the reference to the woman. The city of Jerusalem/Israel. Note the woman in rev 12. We see that the "man child" would be the children of this woman.

    13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children.

    We see the reference to these coming up from the grave representing the dry bone of EZ 37 the tribes of Israel which rise up as a great army as the Lord will come with them from the east. They are the kings of the east in Rev.

    14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
    15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the Lord shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.


    Now also the first four seals are these 4 beasts. Seal 5 is the little horn.
    Thank you, yes I believe Hosea is a great timeline of the end and you have made an excellent presentation here. I also agree that Christ destroys the AC upon his return. I think that there are two final battles though. In the first battle Christ destroys the AC from the air (the wicked Israeli King) and then returns to heaven with the saints and resurrected martyrs. This battle triggers Israel to begin their repentance and realize that Jesus is their true King and Messiah. Later, after they have been persecuted by the leopard, lion and bear for a time, Christ returns for the final battle to save them from destruction.

    If you read Zechariah 14:3 carefully, you'll see that these two final battles are mentioned.

    Zech 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    Christ will fight "against those nations" (the leopard, lion, bear) in the same way he had previously fought the AC in the "day of battle".

    Daniel also makes it very clear, as you point out, that after the 4th beast (the AC) is destroyed by Christ, the other 3 beasts (the leopard, lion, bear) are not destroyed and allowed to continue for a time and season. Another battle is required to destroy the final 3 beasts after they have had their time to bring Israel into complete repentance.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Hi Trivalee,
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Interesting theory. What makes believe that Jesus will descend to destroy the antichrist and presumably return to heaven? And you say, after the AC is destroyed, the beasts (leopard, lion and bear) resume their assault on Israel and then, they have a change of heart and repent. And then Jesus returns a THIRD time to save Israel???

    Brother, this account is woefully inaccurate.
    I understand this theory isn't compatible with mainstream rapture doctrine. But how can you explain Dan 7:11-12 otherwise?

    Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


    According to Paul in 2 Thess 2 the AC must be destroyed by Christ personally. This occurs, as Ross points out, a year and 3 months prior to the destruction of the lion leopard and bear. If the 1000 year reign of peace begins exactly when Christ destroys the antichrist, why exactly is Satan allowed to continue into Christ reign for another year and 3 months? Satan is wounded by Christ but not destroyed when the AC is defeated....as I see it 2 battles to completely destroy Satan are outlined here separated by a year and a half time period.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    Hi Ross,
    I think that there are two final battles though. In the first battle Christ destroys the AC from the air (the wicked Israeli King) and then returns to heaven with the saints and resurrected martyrs. This battle triggers Israel to begin their repentance and realize that Jesus is their true King and Messiah. Later, after they have been persecuted by the leopard, lion and bear for a time, Christ returns for the final battle to save them from destruction.

    If you read Zechariah 14:3 carefully, you'll see that these two final battles are mentioned.

    Zech 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    Christ will fight "against those nations" (the leopard, lion, bear) in the same way he had previously fought the AC in the "day of battle".
    need to look into the multiple battles. However it would be the other way around. A battle against the Lion Bear Leopard would be before a battle against the AC.

    Daniel also makes it very clear, as you point out, that after the 4th beast (the AC) is destroyed by Christ, the other 3 beasts (the leopard, lion, bear) are not destroyed and allowed to continue for a time and season. Another battle is required to destroy the final 3 beasts after they have had their time to bring Israel into complete repentance.
    The Lion Bear and Leopard are conquered by the 4th beast first by the AC. The AC takes power over all. Then the AC is destoyed by Christ. There is no other battle after wherein the Lion bear Leopard against Israel.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    4 Beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome).

    The Little Horn is a 5th Beast, he receives power from the 10 Kings who freely GIVE IT to him.....Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

    13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    Three being overcome means that subsequent to them giving their power unto the Beast three of them see the error of their ways and try to come against the Anti-Christ/Beast and he kills three of the Horns/Kings that gave him their power/blessings as the King/President of the European Union.
    The bible wording of Daniel 7 isn't clear enough to conclude the way you do. It says the three are "plucked up by their roots" (v8) or "fell" (v20) or were "subdued" (v24), which does not necessarily mean they saw the error of their ways.

    What I am expecting is a large Turkish Union to arise, similar in geography to Alexander's Empire, as per Rev 13 the beast resembles the leopard.

    After WW2 the ten countries of that geography were approximately Greece, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Palestine, Egypt. These countries were established by the two world wars. The Middle East never had those ten countries before 1900, but Europe established those countries after the two world wars.

    A little horn arises, before which three fell. This could mean that Israel arose, before which Palestine and soon Syria and Iraq will fall. Or alternatively, it is a new Kurdistan before which Israel, Iraq and Syria will fall. The reason I include those three countries is because Jesus warns of a false Messiah during the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24), and any believable Messiah has to conquer those regions to be accepted as a Jewish Messiah. Is there any biblical reason to reject my scenario?

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Hi Ross,
    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    need to look into the multiple battles. However it would be the other way around. A battle against the Lion Bear Leopard would be before a battle against the AC.



    The Lion Bear and Leopard are conquered by the 4th beast first by the AC. The AC takes power over all. Then the AC is destoyed by Christ. There is no other battle after wherein the Lion bear Leopard against Israel.
    How then does God use the leopard, lion and bear to "rend the caul of their (Israel's) heart"? It seems to me that in your scenario the 4th beast would be glorified in their eyes and they would be only more convinced that he is their protector/messiah.

    I would also take issue with the statement that the leopard lion and bear are 'conquered' by the AC. Their 'dominion' is not taken from them until after the defeat of the AC by Jesus in Dan 7:11. At the time all dominion of the whole earth is given to Jesus by God in the throne room in heaven. IOW, they retain their earthly kingdoms up until the time of the AC's destruction.

    The order of events I see in Dan 7:11-14 are:

    1) The defeat of the AC by Christ
    2) The lives of the leopard lion bear spared for a year and 3 months, but their dominion taken away
    3) The ceremony in heaven where Christ and the saints receive dominion of the earth

    Keep in mind, Israel must be in need of "saving", be repentant, and be crying out for their true Messiah, Jesus, when he does ultimately come to save them and be their king. If they are believing that the AC is their true Messiah, and the AC is keeping their enemies at bay until the very end why would they bother? The AC is keeping them safe, destroying their enemies (Christians, Messianic Jews, Heathens that would challenge their territories). Everything is playing out for them just like they thought it would when their Messiah comes. They don't even know Jesus until the time that he appears and destroys the AC, at which time they realize they've made a huge mistake. At that time they have no longer have the protection of the AC against the leopard lion and bear, and their suffering begins. So basically, in the same way the AC is prepared against Christianity, the leopard lion and bear are prepared against Israel. Or Jacob's trouble starts when the great tribulation ends....

    The timeline of Daniel 7:11-14 seems pretty ironclad to me. The AC is defeated first (Christ must come to earth to defeat him). Christ and the saints receive ownership of the earth from God in heaven (Christ must return to heaven with the saints to receive this reward). The leopard lion bear remain alive on the earth (to caul the heart of Israel). I'm sorry but I can't see any way that the AC isn't defeated by Christ first. I would agree that the AC keeps the leopard lion bear in a state of defeat during his reign on earth in his capacity as protector of Israel. But ultimately they outlive him, and they retain their dominion up until the time of his destruction.....

  14. #14
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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The bible wording of Daniel 7 isn't clear enough to conclude the way you do. It says the three are "plucked up by their roots" (v8) or "fell" (v20) or were "subdued" (v24), which does not necessarily mean they saw the error of their ways.
    Which means we have to use common sense right? If three freely give their powers unto someone, what would make the person the gave power to freely, uproot/kill them? They turned against the person they freely gave powers unto. Its pretty normal thinking also, when the E.U. makes this man its President, then when some of its leaders (lets just say Spain, France and Switzerland) see the monster they created they try to unseat him behind the scenes, and he has them arrested an jailed/or executed. Hes TAKES AWAY their Kingdom, he UPROOTS THEM.

    What I am expecting is a large Turkish Union to arise, similar in geography to Alexander's Empire, as per Rev 13 the beast resembles the leopard.
    Yea, we have two-factions that I think are both treading water. The RCC is the Beast/Pope is the Beast/False Prophet guys and the other faction are the Anti-Christ/Little Horn is an Islamic person and the 10 nations are..........Kind of those you mentioned. In my opinion they do not put Daniel ch. 7 and Daniel ch. 8 together as God intended, thus God gave us the answer in a riddle as to where the Anti-Christ is born. Daniel ch. 7 says the 10 Horns and the Little Horn arise in the end times out of the Fourth Beasts head. (Europe) Then Daniel ch. 8 insists the Little Horn is born in one of the Four Generals Kingdoms in the latter time/End Time, when Gods Wrath is filled up. (Greece). So I combined the two and cross reference them to find out the only place the Anti-Christ can be born.

    Out of the Four Generals, only Greece is in the European Union, and remember, he has to arise out of BOTH KINGDOMS at once. I have a blog I wrote on this a couple of years back. I think people over analyze these and do not think of how God gives us His people things in riddles so the world will not understand them. Dan. 7 (Europe) Dan. 8 one of the Four Generals AND it has to be in Europe (Greece).

    After WW2 the ten countries of that geography were approximately Greece, Turkey, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Palestine, Egypt. These countries were established by the two world wars. The Middle East never had those ten countries before 1900, but Europe established those countries after the two world wars.

    A little horn arises, before which three fell. This could mean that Israel arose, before which Palestine and soon Syria and Iraq will fall. Or alternatively, it is a new Kurdistan before which Israel, Iraq and Syria will fall. The reason I include those three countries is because Jesus warns of a false Messiah during the Great Tribulation (Matthew 24), and any believable Messiah has to conquer those regions to be accepted as a Jewish Messiah. Is there any biblical reason to reject my scenario?
    People have a lot of ideas like this, but Daniel 7 says the 10 Horns arise out of Europe. (Fourth Beast) We now have a European Union, I think the Muslim problem via open borders will cause some shake up, nations like Poland will probably leave, they will get down to 10 Nations in my opinion. Israel is not the Little Horn, that is clearly a MAN Brother.

    As per the false chirst of Matthew 24:24 the word chirst means Messiah and the Messiah is supposed to save the world so to speak, this MAN is going to claim to be God or demand to be worshiped as God, which means he is usurping Jesus coming Kingdom on earth, I do not think he claims to be the Jewish Messiah however. I do think a False Prophet who arises fr the Land is a Jewish Rabbi who lies, so maybe he tells them this is the coming Messiah, but I am not sure the Anti-Christ claims this, its semantics, but the reality is he claims to be God. Muslims are not going to WORSHIP a Man over Allah. (Even though he is a false god also) Its just not going to happen. This is a head fake by Satan IMHO.

    The Harlot being killed in Rev. 17:16 is Islam being WIPED OUT along with all False Religions. It happens when the First Seal is broken. The first thing this Tyrant will do is disable the crazies that would come against him being Worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! And the Muslims will be his very first target. The Christians are Raptured and in Heaven by now. He does come after the Jews who flee to Judea and after the REMNANT of the Church (Rev. 12:17) who have to testimony of Christ.

    But his first target in killing the Harlot (All False Religion) will be Islam. He will wipe it out.

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    Re: Dan 7 "Before whom three fell" - who are they? Lion, Bear, Leopard

    Dan 7 doesn't have the 4th beast arising out of Europe.
    You will only come to that conclusion IF you make Dan 7 and Dan 2 be speaking of the same kingdoms.
    It also requires you to believe there are only 4 kingdoms in Dan 2.

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