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Thread: The Quickening

  1. #1
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    The Quickening

    1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    I have a couple questions:

    1) Does 1 Corinthians 15 happen during 1 Thessalonians 4?

    2) If 1=TRUE, At what point in 1 Thess 4 does 1 Cor 15 happen? (Do the resurrected and living get changed immediately when the dead are raised, or after they are together in the clouds, or all this happens instantaneously?)

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    I have a couple questions:

    1) Does 1 Corinthians 15 happen during 1 Thessalonians 4?

    2) If 1=TRUE, At what point in 1 Thess 4 does 1 Cor 15 happen? (Do the resurrected and living get changed immediately when the dead are raised, or after they are together in the clouds, or all this happens instantaneously?)
    1) yes
    2)The living and dead in Christ are impacted simultaneously by the appearing and coming of Jesus Christ. Together we are then gathered to him to remain with him 4ever.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: The Quickening

    [QUOTE=Soldier_of_Faith;3417822

    I have a couple questions:

    1) Does 1 Corinthians 15 happen during 1 Thessalonians 4?

    2) If 1=TRUE, At what point in 1 Thess 4 does 1 Cor 15 happen? (Do the resurrected and living get changed immediately when the dead are raised, or after they are together in the clouds, or all this happens instantaneously?)[/QUOTE]

    1/ No, they happen 1000 years apart. 1 Thess 4 at the Return of Jesus, when those who remain will be gathered to where Jesus is, that is: in Jerusalem.

    2/ There is no change to immortality for anyone until the Book of Life is opened. Even those martyrs brought back to life may die again, that is why Revelation 20:6 says this second death will have no power over them because their names are in the Book of Life.
    Paul's prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56 is all to do with the Great White Throne Judgement, NOT before that at all. Proved by how it is only then that God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 7:17 But note that Revelation 7:1-14 describes events on earth before Jesus Returns, soon after the terrible Day of the Lord, the Sixth Seal disaster.

  4. #4

    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    I have a couple questions:

    1) Does 1 Corinthians 15 happen during 1 Thessalonians 4?

    2) If 1=TRUE, At what point in 1 Thess 4 does 1 Cor 15 happen? (Do the resurrected and living get changed immediately when the dead are raised, or after they are together in the clouds, or all this happens instantaneously?)
    Both set of scriptures speak about the same event, which is the coming of the Son of man.

    In 1 Corinthians, more emphases are given to those who are alive and remain..... about how they change in a twinkle of an eye from putting on incorruption and immortality to putting on eternity and being quickened.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    I have a couple questions:

    1) Does 1 Corinthians 15 happen during 1 Thessalonians 4?
    Not quite. 1st Corinthians deals with the resurrection of ALL men, starting with Christ, the "Firstfruits of them that slept" (v.20), and gives facts about it. The resurrection of both Christian and Jew, followed by a pause and then the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" is shown. The Rapture is not mentioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    2) If 1=TRUE, At what point in 1 Thess 4 does 1 Cor 15 happen? (Do the resurrected and living get changed immediately when the dead are raised, or after they are together in the clouds, or all this happens instantaneously?)
    The sequence is;
    1. The dead are raised. Their SOULS languish in Hades. Their bodies have returned to the elements of the earth, and their spirits wait with God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). At resurrection the man (who always referred to a "soul" in scripture) RISES from the "heart of the earth". At the surface of the earth he meets his new BODY, prepared NOT in a womb like the first one, but prepared in heaven by the Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.5:1-2). Nevertheless, we understand from the few resurrections that are documented in scripture, that we will be very similar to our present body. Christ's resurrection, the best documented resurrection in scripture, shows that while He was different, and the Apostles had trouble recognizing Him, He still had His wounds from the cross. And these wounds REMAIN till His Second Coming because the Jews will see the One "whom they pierced" (Rev.1:7). Next, the spirit of the man, which gives him his life - his vitality (Gen.2:7; Jas.2:26), returns from God to take up residence again in the man. This is the "whole" man (1st Thess.5:23 shown twice). At this point the resurrected man is on the surace of the earth.
    2. While this resurrection is taking place, which seems to take only a few seconds if we study the other resurrections like that of Lazarus, the LIVING saints are made perfect for the Kingdom of Heaven. 1st Corinthians 15:50 says that in our present state of humanity, we are corrupt and unfit for the coming Millennial Kingdom. I judge that the thing that makes "flesh and blood" unfit for the Kingdom is the BLOOD. Our human physical life for both staying alive, procreating (Act.17:26) and carrying disease, is in the blood. And it is this blood that is removed in the resurrected Christian. Our Lord Jesus, true Man, shed His blood on Golgotha. That means He, like we men, had blood. But in His resurrection He presents Himself WITH FLESH but WITHOUT BLOOD. He says to His disciples in Luke 24:39, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." This is confirmed in both Genesis 2:23 and Ephesians 5:30. In Genesis 2:23 Eve is NOT Flesh and BLOOD of Adam. If she was, then the original sin of Adam would have been transmitted to Jesus, who was "seed of the woman". And in Ephesians 5:30, the Church will be finally built with men in resurrection (for the "Gates of Hades will not stop it"- Matt.16:18). What then will sustain our physical life? - is the obvious question. How can a physical man live without blood? The answer is, THE LIFE OF GOD in our spirits. Besides other reasons, this is one of the major advantages of believing in Jesus. We get ETERNAL LIFE in our spirits. And when the spirit of a Christian returns from God at his resurrection, this LIFE of God will sustain the Christian's human life FOREVER. He cannot die again, and must never fear death again. Not so those of the nations. In eternity future they must be "healed by the leaves (not fruit) of the Tree of Life" (Revelation 22:2).
    3. Lastly, the TWO - (1) the resurrected saints who have put on their heavenly and incorruptible bodies in resurrection, and who are on the surface of the earth, "TOGETHER" (1st Thess.4:17) with the CHANGED LIVING SAINTS, are caught up to the air and the clouds. A Trumpet is for calling a gathering (Joel.2:15, etc.). The timing of the resurrection of the sleeping Christians, AND the CHANGING of the living Christians is connected with the "last Trumpet". 1st Corinthians 15:52 says; "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" BEFORE BEING CAUGHT UP. According to this verse the CHANGING takes place at the same time as the RISING.

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    1/ No, they happen 1000 years apart. 1 Thess 4 at the Return of Jesus, when those who remain will be gathered to where Jesus is, that is: in Jerusalem.

    2/ There is no change to immortality for anyone until the Book of Life is opened. Even those martyrs brought back to life may die again, that is why Revelation 20:6 says this second death will have no power over them because their names are in the Book of Life.
    Paul's prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56 is all to do with the Great White Throne Judgement, NOT before that at all. Proved by how it is only then that God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 7:17 But note that Revelation 7:1-14 describes events on earth before Jesus Returns, soon after the terrible Day of the Lord, the Sixth Seal disaster.
    Do you believe Jesus is not coming until after the 1000 years is completed?

    1 Cor 15:23 speaks of actions of eternal life at His coming. Christ is the firstfruit in that He has a glorified body now. We will also receive a glorified body at His coming, as illustrated in 1 Cor 15:51-54.

    Do you believe 1 Cor 15:23 belongs with 1 Cor 15:51-54, being that it talks of "His coming"?

    If so, where does 1 Thess 4 fit in, if He is not coming until after the 1000 years?

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Not quite. 1st Corinthians deals with the resurrection of ALL men, starting with Christ, the "Firstfruits of them that slept" (v.20), and gives facts about it. The resurrection of both Christian and Jew, followed by a pause and then the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" is shown. The Rapture is not mentioned.
    By all men, do you mean the un-believing and the believing? If so, where does 1 Cor 15:23 fit in? It seems to indicate that Christ is the firstfruit (of those with glorified bodies), and we will get them too. But at His coming! So then, if you are referring to the GWTJ, then hasn't He ALREADY come?


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The sequence is;
    1. The dead are raised. Their SOULS languish in Hades. Their bodies have returned to the elements of the earth, and their spirits wait with God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). At resurrection the man (who always referred to a "soul" in scripture) RISES from the "heart of the earth". At the surface of the earth he meets his new BODY, prepared NOT in a womb like the first one, but prepared in heaven by the Holy Spirit (2nd Cor.5:1-2). Nevertheless, we understand from the few resurrections that are documented in scripture, that we will be very similar to our present body. Christ's resurrection, the best documented resurrection in scripture, shows that while He was different, and the Apostles had trouble recognizing Him, He still had His wounds from the cross. And these wounds REMAIN till His Second Coming because the Jews will see the One "whom they pierced" (Rev.1:7). Next, the spirit of the man, which gives him his life - his vitality (Gen.2:7; Jas.2:26), returns from God to take up residence again in the man. This is the "whole" man (1st Thess.5:23 shown twice). At this point the resurrected man is on the surace of the earth.
    2. While this resurrection is taking place, which seems to take only a few seconds if we study the other resurrections like that of Lazarus, the LIVING saints are made perfect for the Kingdom of Heaven. 1st Corinthians 15:50 says that in our present state of humanity, we are corrupt and unfit for the coming Millennial Kingdom. I judge that the thing that makes "flesh and blood" unfit for the Kingdom is the BLOOD. Our human physical life for both staying alive, procreating (Act.17:26) and carrying disease, is in the blood. And it is this blood that is removed in the resurrected Christian. Our Lord Jesus, true Man, shed His blood on Golgotha. That means He, like we men, had blood. But in His resurrection He presents Himself WITH FLESH but WITHOUT BLOOD. He says to His disciples in Luke 24:39, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." This is confirmed in both Genesis 2:23 and Ephesians 5:30. In Genesis 2:23 Eve is NOT Flesh and BLOOD of Adam. If she was, then the original sin of Adam would have been transmitted to Jesus, who was "seed of the woman". And in Ephesians 5:30, the Church will be finally built with men in resurrection (for the "Gates of Hades will not stop it"- Matt.16:18). What then will sustain our physical life? - is the obvious question. How can a physical man live without blood? The answer is, THE LIFE OF GOD in our spirits. Besides other reasons, this is one of the major advantages of believing in Jesus. We get ETERNAL LIFE in our spirits. And when the spirit of a Christian returns from God at his resurrection, this LIFE of God will sustain the Christian's human life FOREVER. He cannot die again, and must never fear death again. Not so those of the nations. In eternity future they must be "healed by the leaves (not fruit) of the Tree of Life" (Revelation 22:2).
    3. Lastly, the TWO - (1) the resurrected saints who have put on their heavenly and incorruptible bodies in resurrection, and who are on the surface of the earth, "TOGETHER" (1st Thess.4:17) with the CHANGED LIVING SAINTS, are caught up to the air and the clouds. A Trumpet is for calling a gathering (Joel.2:15, etc.). The timing of the resurrection of the sleeping Christians, AND the CHANGING of the living Christians is connected with the "last Trumpet". 1st Corinthians 15:52 says; "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" BEFORE BEING CAUGHT UP. According to this verse the CHANGING takes place at the same time as the RISING.
    I was leaning towards an idea that the resurection from the dead is into an earthly body first, then being quickened into a glorified body. However then I see this:

    1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    So in "the resurrection" spoken of in 1 Cor 15, all dead who are raised are raised into INCORRUPTIBLE, GLORIOUS, POWERFUL bodies. This does not sound like those bodies that will be thrown into the lake of fire to me... Do they to you? SO then, can we say "all dead are RESURRECTED"?

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Both set of scriptures speak about the same event, which is the coming of the Son of man.

    In 1 Corinthians, more emphases are given to those who are alive and remain..... about how they change in a twinkle of an eye from putting on incorruption and immortality to putting on eternity and being quickened.
    I believe you are right Glorious. To me, 1 Cor 15 speaks directly to the Believer, giving Hope that we will be transformed into the glorious body that Jesus now Has. And I believe that 1 Cor 15 timing is referenced in verse 23, "At His coming", just like 1 Thess 4 speaks of "the coming of the Lord".

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    By all men, do you mean the un-believing and the believing? If so, where does 1 Cor 15:23 fit in? It seems to indicate that Christ is the firstfruit (of those with glorified bodies), and we will get them too. But at His coming! So then, if you are referring to the GWTJ, then hasn't He ALREADY come?




    I was leaning towards an idea that the resurection from the dead is into an earthly body first, then being quickened into a glorified body. However then I see this:

    1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    So in "the resurrection" spoken of in 1 Cor 15, all dead who are raised are raised into INCORRUPTIBLE, GLORIOUS, POWERFUL bodies. This does not sound like those bodies that will be thrown into the lake of fire to me... Do they to you? SO then, can we say "all dead are RESURRECTED"?
    May I refer you to my posting #7 in the thread on this same Forum called "Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?". It is 00:30 here and I'm about ready for some shut-eye. But if, after reading my reference, you still have questions, I'll answer tomorrow (actually later today). God bless and good-night.

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post

    2/ There is no change to immortality for anyone until the Book of Life is opened. Even those martyrs brought back to life may die again, that is why Revelation 20:6 says this second death will have no power over them because their names are in the Book of Life.
    Paul's prophecy in 1 Cor 15:50-56 is all to do with the Great White Throne Judgement, NOT before that at all. Proved by how it is only then that God will wipe away every tear. Revelation 7:17 But note that Revelation 7:1-14 describes events on earth before Jesus Returns, soon after the terrible Day of the Lord, the Sixth Seal disaster.
    Why on earth would the dead that sleep in Christ rise to mortality at that time rather than immortality instead?

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52*In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Can you point out this last trumpet in Scriptures, showing where it indicates a trumpet sounds after the still to come future thousand years has ended, followed by the sounding of it, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed? I see zero in Rev 20 about any last trumpet sounding post the thousand years. I'm sure your view makes perfect sense to you. Can't say it does to me though. If you were Amil and placed the thousand years prior to the 2nd coming, in that case it might at least make sense. But if you place the thousand years after the 2nd coming, then conclude what you are concluding here, you would need to show with Scriptures that there is a last trump following the end of the thousand years and the end of satan's little season.

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Do you believe Jesus is not coming until after the 1000 years is completed?

    1 Cor 15:23 speaks of actions of eternal life at His coming. Christ is the firstfruit in that He has a glorified body now. We will also receive a glorified body at His coming, as illustrated in 1 Cor 15:51-54.

    Do you believe 1 Cor 15:23 belongs with 1 Cor 15:51-54, being that it talks of "His coming"?

    If so, where does 1 Thess 4 fit in, if He is not coming until after the 1000 years?
    I believe Jesus will Return in glory and reign for 1 thousand years.
    1 Corinthians 15:23 refers those martyrs killed during the reign of the Anti-Christ. As is plainly stated in Revelation 20:4-5.
    Christians alive at the Return, will be gathered to Jesus, as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and Matthew 24:31.

    These are clear scriptures and to believe that immortality or even 'glorified bodies' are given to anyone before the GWT Judgement of ALL the dead and, of course; those alive at the end of the Millennium, is wrong and unscriptural.

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Why on earth would the dead that sleep in Christ rise to mortality at that time rather than immortality instead?

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52*In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Can you point out this last trumpet in Scriptures, showing where it indicates a trumpet sounds after the still to come future thousand years has ended, followed by the sounding of it, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed? I see zero in Rev 20 about any last trumpet sounding post the thousand years. I'm sure your view makes perfect sense to you. Can't say it does to me though. If you were Amil and placed the thousand years prior to the 2nd coming, in that case it might at least make sense. But if you place the thousand years after the 2nd coming, then conclude what you are concluding here, you would need to show with Scriptures that there is a last trump following the end of the thousand years and the end of satan's little season.
    Jesus raised Lazarus to mortality. Elijah raised the son of the widow to mortality, etc. They all died again.
    Revelation 20:4 plainly states that those martyrs killed by the Anti-Christ, will be brought back to life and they will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. THEN, at the GWT Judgement, they will be among those whom Paul tells us about in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 - instantly transformed into immortality.

    Paul mentions the last trumpet in verse 52. The Seventh Trumpet of Revelation 11:15, is not called the 'last Trumpet'. So; even though no Trumpets are mentioned in Daniel 7:9-10 or Revelation 20:11-15, we can be sure by how Paul says Death will be no more; that he is referring to the end of the Millennium and the Great White Throne final event , when the actual 'Last Trumpet' will be blown to signify the end of God's decreed time of 7000 years of mankind on the old earth.
    Revelation 21 and Revelation 22:1-5 describe how it will be after that; the gift of Eternal Life for those victorious. Not before, that is illogical and unscriptural.

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    I have a couple questions:

    1) Does 1 Corinthians 15 happen during 1 Thessalonians 4?

    2) If 1=TRUE, At what point in 1 Thess 4 does 1 Cor 15 happen? (Do the resurrected and living get changed immediately when the dead are raised, or after they are together in the clouds, or all this happens instantaneously?)
    No, these are not the same event. 1 Thess 4 is about the rapture. 1 Cor 15:50ff is about the second resurrection at the end of the Millennium. THAT is when we will receive a new body. There is no need for a physical body in heaven, the place of God's rest for the Millennium. Rapture and resurrection have nothing to do with each other.

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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Why on earth would the dead that sleep in Christ rise to mortality at that time rather than immortality instead?

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52*In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Can you point out this last trumpet in Scriptures, showing where it indicates a trumpet sounds after the still to come future thousand years has ended, followed by the sounding of it, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall be changed? I see zero in Rev 20 about any last trumpet sounding post the thousand years. I'm sure your view makes perfect sense to you. Can't say it does to me though. If you were Amil and placed the thousand years prior to the 2nd coming, in that case it might at least make sense. But if you place the thousand years after the 2nd coming, then conclude what you are concluding here, you would need to show with Scriptures that there is a last trump following the end of the thousand years and the end of satan's little season.
    For a while I believed as Keraz, in that when Christ comes Believers would be resurrected in the Flesh first, then if Worthy (Judged worthy by Christ through their Works -Fruit while in Christ Jesus), they would receive the Glorified Body. However I was corrected (I believe by the Holy Spirit) when I was directed to 1 Cor 15 which SPECIFICALLY says (speaking of the Resurrection specifically) that we are raised INCORRUPTIBLE, POWERFUL, and full of GLORY. (1 Cor 15:42-44)

    I believe he, like I, separated the "quickening" (Change of Flesh into a spiritual body) from the "resurrection" (Flesh rising up out of the grave) . Now I see these two things as interchangeable, AT HIS COMING. All resurrections (that occurred while Christ was o the earth) that I see in the Word seem to be into Flesh (with Christ as the exception, however some question if He was fully Glorified before He ascended or after...) not into Glorified Spiritual bodies. This is where I got my confusion from.

  15. #15
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    No, these are not the same event. 1 Thess 4 is about the rapture. 1 Cor 15:50ff is about the second resurrection at the end of the Millennium. THAT is when we will receive a new body. There is no need for a physical body in heaven, the place of God's rest for the Millennium. Rapture and resurrection have nothing to do with each other.
    Thanks, Tony. Let me ask then If Christ will resurrect people at His coming, and Christ resurrects at the same time he "changes" those who are alive, (1 Cor 15:52), How if He has already appeared can this happen at the end of the Millennium? If you do not believe He appears before Rev 19, lets use that. He most certainly appears on a White Horse at Armageddon. So that at least then, all "that are Christ's at his coming" shall be changed in a moment, "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

    I can not reconcile NO resurrection before the end of the Millennium.

    How is this reconciled?

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