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Thread: The Quickening

  1. #31
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Firstly, please check your posts, so we don't have to figure out what you mean; 'light' you mean line? 'one' you mean once? 'withing ' totally incomprehensible!

    There is no contradiction or misapplication between 1 Thess 4:15-17 and Revelation 20:4, where Jesus comes down from heaven, raises the dead martyrs and gathers those faithful Christian survivors to Himself, thence to Jerusalem, for His Millennium reign.
    I see the 30 days of Daniel 12:11, as the period of the Marriage Supper. Revelation 19:5-7 Then Jesus Returns to earth, seen by all and destroys the attacking armies and chains up Satan. Revelation 19:11-21

    The Romans 8:21-23 prophecy plainly refers to the final Judgement at the GWT, after the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then that immortality is conferred to those whose names are in the Book of Life. Revelation 21:1-7
    Yes, but 1 Thess 4:16 says Jesus raises them from the dead then TAKES THEM UP into the air to meet Him. Where is that part in Rev 19-20? How is it the same because of that missing part?

  2. #32

    Re: The Quickening

    A verse that some have errantly overlooked is found in Hebrews 9.

    *[[Heb 9:28]] KJV* So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
    ... to those that look for him...
    ... shall he appear the SECOND time....
    ... without sin unto salvation!

    You have to a living mortal to be looking for him!

    The salvation being referred to here is the incorruptible immortality. WITHOUT SIN!

    The second time refers to BEFORE millennium, not after.

    All those in Christ will be clothed with immortality AT HIS NEXT APPEARING!
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  3. #33
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Yes, but 1 Thess 4:16 says Jesus raises them from the dead then TAKES THEM UP into the air to meet Him. Where is that part in Rev 19-20? How is it the same because of that missing part?
    This transportation of the living faithful people, as described in 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31, is similar to what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39 It will include the dead martyrs of the Great Tribulation, Revelation 12:17 and those Christians who remain alive at the Return of Jesus.
    It seems that the 'meeting in the clouds', will be just momentary, as living people can't hang about up there for very long!

  4. #34
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    A verse that some have errantly overlooked is found in Hebrews 9.

    *[[Heb 9:28]] KJV* So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
    ... to those that look for him...
    ... shall he appear the SECOND time....
    ... without sin unto salvation!

    You have to a living mortal to be looking for him!

    The salvation being referred to here is the incorruptible immortality. WITHOUT SIN!

    The second time refers to BEFORE millennium, not after.

    All those in Christ will be clothed with immortality AT HIS NEXT APPEARING!
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    It is Jesus that is said to be without sin. NOT us fallible humans!

    Hebrews 9:28 does not mention immortality. You have added that.
    Our Salvation and our Promise, is for immortality. John 3:16 But the clear and indisputable scripture that tells us when this happens, is Revelation 20:11-15 and Rev 21:1-7

  5. #35

    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It is Jesus that is said to be without sin. NOT us fallible humans!

    Hebrews 9:28 does not mention immortality. You have added that.
    Our Salvation and our Promise, is for immortality. John 3:16 But the clear and indisputable scripture that tells us when this happens, is Revelation 20:11-15 and Rev 21:1-7
    It is the context that says otherwise.

    *[[Heb 9:26]] KJV* For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    Here it says that the purpose of Christ's FIRST comin was to "put away sin". That means to abolish sin forever.

    *[[Heb 9:27]] KJV* And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Here it says that once we die, judgment will then follow. We are not without sin, nor have we stood before the judgment bema of Christ, until all of the deeds of the body are complete.

    *[[2Co 5:10]] KJV* For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    *[[Col 3:4]] KJV* When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

    This is the same glory that is mentioned here:

    *[[Phi 3:20]] KJV* For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
    *[[Phi 3:21]] KJV* Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Did you get all of that?
    "At the appearing of the one that we look for to come from heaven, who shall change our bodies, just like unto his glorious body"?

    *[[Heb 9:28]] KJV* So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

  6. #36
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This transportation of the living faithful people, as described in 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31, is similar to what happened to Philip. Acts 8:39 It will include the dead martyrs of the Great Tribulation, Revelation 12:17 and those Christians who remain alive at the Return of Jesus.
    It seems that the 'meeting in the clouds', will be just momentary, as living people can't hang about up there for very long!
    Interesting idea. Can angels hang around up there? If so, don't you know we will be as the angels once we are resurrected? Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

  7. #37
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    Re: The Quickening

    What might help the present discussion is a bird's-eye view of what God is doing with resurrection. Man was made with a body. This BODY serves TWO purposes;
    1. Since the creation is a physical one, the rulers and/or kings of the earth must be physical. Man is thus made FROM the ground, he is nourished from the ground (even our Lord Jesus must be a TREE of Life), and he must exercise dominion over the physical earth by his physical presence. That is, God wants man to occupy the earth. This no more clearly seen that when Israel started their conquest of the Good Land. To stop ANIMALS from occupying the Land, God said in Deuteronomy 7:22; "And the LORD thy God will put out those nations before thee by little and little: thou mayest not consume them at once, lest the beasts of the field increase upon thee." That is, God would even tolerate cursed idol-worshiping pagan men occupying the earth than "beasts". The universe is matter and the earth's rulers are "formed" from it physically.
    2. God's gave Adam TWO commands ONLY. (1) "Subdue and rule the earth, sea and sky, and (2) Eat from all trees except one. If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life God would have been inside of Adam. When a man eats fruit the substance of the fruit permeates the man, dwells in him and becomes organically one with him. If God had ENTERED Adam and the union was organic, then God would have forever DWELT in Adam. Thus we see that God did not want a relationship with man from a distance. He wanted an organic union with man by Him dwelling IN Man. The man must be a VESSEL to contain God. Thus, while God dealt with men in the flesh, Israel, the Church is not mentioned or revealed in the Old Testament. But NOW knowing God's "eternal purpose", we can understand Ephesians 3:9-11 and Colossians 1:24-27.

    9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord."
    .

    24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
    25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
    26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:"


    It is abundantly clear that the Church, the "House of the Living God" (1st Tim.3:15), is God's "Eternal Purpose", and this House is made of BODIES OF MEN (1st Cor.6:15, 19)

    Now this BODY of man became TOTALLY unfit for its duty because of the fall of man. It;
    1. became susceptible to death
    2. became evil
    3. became defiled
    4. procreated more of the same evil men through its blood

    So God drives man away from the Tree of Life with the express purpose of letting the rotting thing DIE (Gen.3:22-23). But that does not mean that God had given up on His plan for man. Rather than patch up the rotting man, God allows death to take over temporarily. His glory is best shown NOT in healing, but in GIVING LIFE to the dead. In 1 Corinthians 15:50 the matter is clear; "... flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." God's rule on earth shall not be the same as Lucifer's. It will not be undermined by corruption and death like the present Gentile rulers of this world. God's co-kings must be IMMORTAL and RIGHTEOUS. So God starts a work by first putting away sins judicially, then implanting (or breathing in) His Spirit into man's spirit, then allowing the man to undergo a rigorous training in righteousness and the FINALLY REPLACING THE ROTTING BODY WITH A NEW AND HEAVENLY BODY.

    That is, when Christ, Chiefest of Kings, Maker and Owner of the universe, takes His rightful and preordained place as King of the earth, His co-kings MUST DISPLAY HIS ATTRIBUTES. When Jesus comes for the Second Time, He will institute a Kingdom of "righteousness, peace and joy" (Rom.14:17). And these are the ATTRIBUTES NEEDED
    1. The man must be physical and be a Vessel (of honor)
    2. The man must be IMMORTAL. If he is not, the kingdom will collapse when the king dies
    3. The man must be son of God to be an heir to this Kingdom by another and additional birth
    4. The man must have passed the rigorous training a Kingdom of righteousness
    5. The man must be intimate with the Chief King - Jesus
    6. The man must have shed the old BODY and have body that is not the source of evil and death
    7. The man must have these attributes WHEN JESUS COMES TO SET UP HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH

    So it is simple to understand then (1) WHEN THE RESURRECTION IS, AND (2) WHAT IS THE MANNER OF THE MEN WHO PARTAKE OF IT. If you approach every scripture that deals with the resurrection with this view, you should be able to fit it into this scheme of things.

  8. #38
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Interesting idea. Can angels hang around up there? If so, don't you know we will be as the angels once we are resurrected? Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
    So please tell us exactly when we Christians become as the angels.

    Thank you, Walls, for your excellent post #37. This answers the age old questions: Why are we here? What's it all about? What must we do?
    Here is an article I wrote:
    Almighty God and Planet Earth
    We now have available to us quite sophisticated video games, such as ‘Game of Thrones’, where we can control identities and develop outcomes to the advantage of the player.
    When we consider the empirical data of our environment and the information as given to us in the Book provided by our Maker, it does seem that we are actually part of a carefully set up great cosmic plan1. The Creator God has fashioned a whole universe, and He has fixed the heavenly bodies in space, but Planet Earth is specially established as a place for human existence2. He constantly watches3 our progress or lack of, as the case may be and does occasionally intervene with miraculous things4 and a little tweak of the weather5. He can also control our minds6, although we are free to choose our beliefs and that has a bearing on our actions7.
    Although Satan is an angelic being that has rebelled against God,8 he is allowed to try to deceive humankind,9 in order to provide us with a choice – follow good or evil.10
    God sent Jesus into the world to reiterate how we should live and to provide a way of atonement for all who choose to believe in Him and obey His Commands.11
    Only once so far, He has carried out a reset of civilization, when the situation got out of hand, as in the days of Noah12. Then later, He selected Abraham to father a nation who would become His chosen people, to be His witnesses and to show the right way of living to the rest of the nations.13 The ancient Israelites failed at this task and they were exiled out of the holy Land and city that God had chosen for His own.14
    Now a small portion of the Israelites have returned to a part of the holy Land, but they face constant threats of annihilation from all the surrounding peoples.15 The Prophetic Word says that the Lord is restraining Himself from intervening,16 but when the enemy commences his attack, then He will act.17
    Scripture tells us that He is the Potter, we are the clay and He can remould or smash at will.18 Some are actually made for destruction.19 The forthcoming great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a terrible judgement/punishment by fire from the sky,20 will once again reset the world’s civilization.21
    The survivors of the nations will establish a One World Government, ruled by 10 Presidents,22 but all the true Christian people will gather and go to live in all of the original Promised Land.23 They will fulfil their destiny, being a light to the nations and proclaiming the coming Kingdom of Jesus.24

    1/ Almighty God is the Creator of all there is.
    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth….
    Jeremiah 10:12 God made the earth by His power…
    Psalm 33:11 The Lord’s purpose stands forever….
    2/ The Earth is made for mankind.
    Genesis 1:26-28…God created humans in His own image, they have dominion over the earth.
    Isaiah 45:18 The Creator says: I made the earth as a place to be lived in.
    3/ The Lord watches all mankind.
    2 Chron. 16:9 The eyes of the Lord range through the whole world…
    Proverbs 15:3 The eyes of the Lord survey everyone, good or evil.
    Psalm 11:4 God is on His throne in heaven, His searching gaze tests mankind.
    4/ God can and does perform miracles.
    Exodus 14:21-28 …the Israelites went over the Red sea on dry land…
    John 11:43 Jesus said: Lazarus, come forth.
    5/ God controls the weather.
    Genesis 41:25-32…there will be seven good years and then seven years of famine.
    1 Kings 18:41-45…Elijah prayed for rain to break the drought.
    Psalm 135:3-5 The Lord is great, He brings up clouds and makes the rain.

    6/ He can control our minds.
    Deut. 29:4 To this day, the Lord has not given you a mind to understand.
    Isaiah 29:9-11 If you believe false teachings, then the Lord will pour upon you a spirit of deep stupor and the prophetic vision will become as a sealed book.
    Isaiah 56:10-11 All Israel’s watchmen are blind, perceiving nothing…
    Matthew 11:25 Father, You have hidden the truth from the wise and revealed it to the simple.
    7/ We can choose the path we travel through life.
    Genesis 2:15-17…you are free to eat of any tree, but if you eat from the tree of the knowledge you will then know of the difference between good and evil.
    Proverbs 16:16 Choose wisdom rather than gold, discernment before silver.
    8/ Satan, Lucifer, the Devil, that great Dragon.
    Ezekiel 28:11-15 You were full of wisdom and beauty…until iniquity came into you.
    Luke 4:6 All the earth has been put into my hands….
    Rev. 12:3-17…that great Dragon lost his place in heaven… he pursued the ‘woman’, but she was taken to a place of safety, so he went to wage war on the other faithful Christians.
    9/ Satan is a cunning deceiver.
    Genesis 4:6-7 The Lord said to Cain: Why are you angry? You must keep upright, for sin is a demon crouching at the door, it will take you over
    1 Peter 5:8 Look out! The Devil is like a roaring lion, looking for prey.
    10/ It’s our choice – follow good or evil.
    Joshua 24:15 …choose now whom you will serve, the God of our fathers or of the Amorites.
    Isaiah 56:4-5…those who choose to do My will, will receive an everlasting blessing.
    11/ The Way of the Lord is the right Way.
    Isaiah 48:17 The Lord says: I teach you for your own wellbeing…
    Micah 6:8 The Lord has told you mortals what is good, act justly, be loyal and humble.
    John 14:6 Jesus said: I am the Way, the Truth and the Light…
    12/ The days of Noah.
    Genesis 6:5-13 When God saw how great was the wickedness of humans on earth, He wiped them out with a great flood, only Noah and his family survived.
    Matthew 24:27 As it was in the days of Noah, again it will be when the Son of Man comes.
    13/ A chosen people, the Lord’s witnesses.
    Deut.10:15 God loved the forefathers and He chose their descendants after them.
    Psalm 65:4-5 Happy are those whom You chose, God our Deliverer
    John 15:1-27 I am the Vine, you are the branches…you are to bear fruit in plenty and so be My disciples…You did not choose Me, I chose you…to be My witnesses throughout the world.
    14/ The Exile punishment of the Israelites.
    Deut. 4:25-27 If you anger the Lord by sinning against Him, then He will scatter you among the nations and leave you few in number in the places where He will lead you.
    2 Kings 17:20-23 When God separated Israel from the House of David, they persisted in sinning. So the Lord rejected the descendants of Israel and flung them out of His presence. They were taken to Assyria and remain in exile to this day.
    Jeremiah 16:10-13 Tell Judah how they have forsaken Me and do not keep My Law, they follow their wicked and stubborn hearts. So I shall fling them headlong out of this Land, into unknown countries, there to serve other gods.
    15/ The Jewish State of Israel is now facing serious threats of attack.
    Psalm 83:1-8 …our enemies raise an uproar, they devise a cunning plot against Israel. They say: Let us wipe them out as a nation, let the name of Israel be remembered no more.
    Micah 4:11-12 Now; many nations are massed against you, they say: Let Israel suffer disaster, but they do not know God’s thoughts or understand His purposes – they are like sheaves gathered for threshing.
    16/ God is refraining from intervening until the last moment.
    Isaiah 42:14 Long have I restrained Myself, I keep silence and hold Myself in check. But now I am like a woman in labour, soon I will lay waste to the countryside and dry it up.
    Habakkuk 3:12-14 In anger, You traverse the earth, You trample down the nations. You will shatter the wicked, sweeping them away as they commence their secret attack.
    Psalm 7:12-16 The enemy makes ready his weapons, but his nefarious actions will recoil upon himself, his violent attack will fall onto his own head.
    Joel 3:4 What are you Philistines doing? If you try to take vengeance on Me, I shall make your weapons recoil swiftly onto your own heads.
    17/ The Lord will take action against the godless nations.
    Isaiah 34:1-8 Listen everybody: the Lord’s anger is against all the nations and His wrath is against their military forces. For My sword will appear in the sky, the atmosphere will roll away as it descends in judgement. There will be a great slaughter in Edom, [non Israelite nations] and a sacrifice in Bozrah. [Places where the exiled Israelites live.]
    Isaiah 28:21 But the Lord will arise, as He did in ancient times, He will storm with rage to do what He must do, to perform His task, an unusual act.
    18/ He is the Potter, we are the clay.
    Jeremiah 18:1-9… My people, I can deal with you just like a potter does with the clay….I can at any moment uproot a nation or plant and build up another nation or kingdom. But if it does evil in My sight, then I will reconsider the good that I had in mind for them.
    Romans 9:20-21 Who do you think you are, to answer your Creator back?...Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay. Is he not free to make two vessels out of one lump, one to be treasured, the other for common use?
    19/ Some are made for destruction.
    Romans 9:22-23 But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and make His power known, can it be that He has with great patience tolerated vessels made to be objects of His wrath and destined for destruction?
    Jeremiah 9: 25-26, 21-22 The time is coming when I shall punish all the circumcised, the dwellers in the Middle East, for all alike including My people, Israel, are uncircumcised in their hearts. Death will come into the houses and those outside will fall. Corpses will lie like dung in the fields, like swaths behind the Reaper, with no one to bury them.
    Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made each thing for its own end, so He has made the wicked for a Day of calamity.
    Hebrews 10:27…there remains only a terrifying fire that will consume God’s enemies.
    20/ The great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath.
    Isaiah 30:25-28…on the Day of massacre, when all military power is destroyed….the sun will shine with seven times its normal strength…[A Coronal Mass Ejection] The Lord’s anger blazes and His doom is heavy upon the nations that He has decreed for destruction.
    Zephaniah 1:14-18 The great Day of the Lord is near and approaches fast. That Day is a Day of devastation and dire distress to all peoples who have sinned against the Lord, their blood will be poured out and their entrails like dung. Their wealth and strength will not save them from the fire of His wrath. The entire holy Land will be consumed, for He will make a sudden and terrible end to all who live there.
    Malachi 4:1-3 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all the godless evildoers will become stubble, set ablaze and as ashes under your feet, on the Day that I take action.
    Revelation 6:12-17 As the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, there was a violent earthquake, the sun was darkened, [by the approaching CME mass] and the moon blood red. [by the hit from this CME] The sky rolled up, [the atmosphere pushed aside] and there was a meteor shower. Everyone could see what was coming and they tried to hide, terrified by their impending doom: for the great Day of wrath of God Almighty and the Lamb has come and who can stand?


    21/ The Second ‘Reset of Civilization’.
    Deuteronomy 32:22, 34-35, 43 God has in reserve, sealed in His storehouse, waiting for the Day of punishment and vengeance: a fire to be set ablaze by His wrath. It will devour the earth and its harvest, reaching to the very roots of the mountains. When those who hate Him make a mistake, He will avenge the blood of His people and cleanse His Land.
    Jeremiah 25:30-33 The Lord thunders from His dwelling place, He roars loudly against all the inhabitants of the holy Land. Everyone on earth hears the great sound, for He brings His charge against the nations and arraigns all mankind. He has handed the wicked over to destruction. Ruin spreads from nation to nation, [as the earth rotates] and those whom the Lord has killed on that Day, will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other.
    2 Peter 3:7 By God’s Word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for burning, kept until the Day of judgement, when the godless will be destroyed.
    22/ The long planned One World Government, soon to be ruled by a dictator.
    Daniel 7:23-24…a fourth kingdom will appear on earth…it will take over the whole earth, controlling all aspects of life with great power. Ten Presidents will initially rule the ten regions, but another powerful leader will arise and take dictatorial control over all.
    Revelation 17:12-13 & 13:11-18 The ten horns you saw represent ten kings, who will confer their authority onto the beast. The beast whose mortal wound had been healed makes everyone worship his image and to take his mark, otherwise they cannot buy or sell.
    23/ The Lord’s righteous Christian people, be they true descendants of Jacob or grafted in, Romans 11:13-21, will gather and go to live in all of the holy Land.
    Isaiah 51:5-6 In an instant, I will bring victory and deliver My people. Look: although the sky is dispersed like smoke and people die like flies, My saving power to you is everlasting.
    Isaiah 66:18-20 I am coming to gather people of every tongue, they will come to see My glory. From all the world, in every type of conveyance they will come, as an offering to God.
    Isaiah 62:1-5 For Zion’s sake, I shall not keep silent, her victory and deliverance is like a blazing torch. The Land will be called Beulah and I will delight in My people who live there.
    Jeremiah 23:3 I Myself, will gather the remnant of My sheep from all the lands to which I have dispersed them. I shall bring them back to their rightful homes and they will be fruitful and increase.
    Zechariah 8:7-8 This is the Word of the Lord: I am about to rescue My people from the countries in the East and the West and bring them back to live in the holy Land. They will be My people and I will be their God.
    24/ The Lord’s people, the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, living in all of the holy Land:
    Isaiah 49:8 These are the Words of the Lord: In the time of My favour, I answered you, on the Day of deliverance I came to your aid. I have prepared you and destined you to be a ‘light to the nations’, and to restore the desolated Land.
    Ezekiel 39:25-29 When I bring My people back from the nations, when they live once more in their homeland undisturbed and free from terror, then they will forget their shame and unfaithfulness to Me – for I shall pour out My Spirit upon them and they will display My holiness for many nations to see.
    Isaiah 42:6 I the Lord, have called you for a righteous purpose and taken you by the hand. I have formed you and destined you to be a light for the peoples, a lamp for the nations.
    Revelation 7:1-10 After that, [The Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations.] there will be no further disasters until the Seal of God is placed upon the foreheads of His servants. 144,000 were marked and with them was a vast throng of people [in Jerusalem], from every race, tribe, nation and language. They shouted: Victory to our God who sits on the throne and to the Lamb!
    Reference; Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.

    Revelation 14:1-6 proves all this takes place in Jerusalem and the Lord is ‘revealed to His own’, 2 Thess. 1:10 and ‘to the elders of His people’, Isaiah 24:23. The leader they elect, Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11, ‘will approach Him’, as Moses did.

  9. #39
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I disagree that they are separate terms:

    "Dead in Christ"

    1) Jesus is Christ so you can say "DEAD IN JESUS"
    2) Jesus called the Dead "asleep" John 11:11-14. Then after specifically saying he SLEPT, He said "Lazarus is DEAD." So now we can say "Sleep in Jesus"
    3) "Those who Sleep in Jesus" IS EQUAL TO "The Dead in Christ".

    The OT Saints were "Saved" once they believed on the name of Jesus when they were preached to at the death of Christ, when Christ first Descended into the depths. Both the OT Saints and the NT Saints come together with Christ on the Clouds. IMHO... I see a need in your belief to separate these things, but they do not need to be separated at all if you understand Salvation by the Name of Jesus Christ.
    1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

    God brings those who sleep in Jesus to the rapture. Then the dead in Christ are raised. Then the living join them in the air. IF those who sleep in Jesus and the dead in Christ are the same people, how does God bring them to the rapture before they rise?

    The resurrection Absolutely CAN NOT include the rapture at that moment. The reason is because of the word "First" in verse 16. "and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" Then the words "caught up together with them" in verse 17.

    1) If the Living and resurrected are "caught up together WITH" each other AT THE RESURRECTION, then the the word FIRST has no meaning.
    2) If the Resurrection happens First, but there is no Rapture yet, then the words "caught up TOGETHER WITH" the Living now has a proper meaning.
    3) The Dead will rise up from the grave and be quickened in the blink of an eye as the living is instantly quickened AT THE SAME MOMENT. Then they BOTH (as all now have glorified bodies) will be taken up TOGETHER into the clouds.

    IMHO...
    I understand we all want and teach instant gratification, but this creation isn't about us. It's about Him. You can believe what you want to of course. I would just ask why you reject what John said about the first resurrection in Rev 20? Those who get beheaded for not worshipping the beast or its image are the FIRST to be resurrected. This is either the first resurrection, or it isn't the first resurrection. Teaching that the rapture of anyone as a resurrection is basically says John was wrong.

  10. #40
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But what then of the LIVING? They have their bodies at Rapture. And what then of 1st Corinthians 15:23 that plainly states that our resurrection like Christ's happens at His coming? 1st Corinthians, and the whole of scripture, deals with the BODY at resurrection. And since our BODIES make the Church (1st Cor.6:15, 19) is there no Church in the Millennium since all bodies are returned to the elements? The Church is the House of God. Does God loose His House at Christ's Second Coming, and therefore Hades HAS PREVAILED? I propose the opposite. Resurrection is ALWAYS the knitting together of the SOUL (RISING from Hades), and the BODY (on the surface of the earth) - just lie Christ's resurrection.

    I suggest that the "RISING" of the dead is the journey of the SOUL to the surface of the earth. It is so in all the Bible. It was so in that most documented case of a resurrection - that of Jesus. He had RISEN from the DEAD (to the surface of earth) but He had NOT "ascended" to the Father (Jn.20:17). And in both Matthew 26:32 and 28:7 our Lord Jesus was "RISEN" but going to Galilee in His RISEN state.
    I hear ya. That is what most teach because it is what they want to believe. However, was John wrong in Rev 20 when he said those who get beheaded are the FIRST resurrection? This cannot include any that have already died or are alive today, since the 1260 days of the beast are not yet. Either the first resurrection is the first, or it isn't the first.

    The 5th seal plainly shows SOULS able to communicate and wear robes. Do they need a physical body in heaven? No. Why would anyone need a physical body in heaven?

    Also, what did Jesus actually say about being born again of the Spirit?

    John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

    Humans have no concept of living without a physical body, which is why they teach so much resurrection. Jesus said plainly how those born again of the Spirit would move, like the wind and no one can tell where they are going. This isn't about having a new invisible fast body. Even Jesus' resurrection included appearing and disappearing at will. Until the NHNE there is no need whatsoever of a new physical body. Though I realize it is hard to think in those terms.

  11. #41
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    I hear ya. That is what most teach because it is what they want to believe. However, was John wrong in Rev 20 when he said those who get beheaded are the FIRST resurrection? This cannot include any that have already died or are alive today, since the 1260 days of the beast are not yet. Either the first resurrection is the first, or it isn't the first.
    Thanks for the answer. I would like first to address this point, for more than one on this Forum thinks what you think. Let us examine Revelation 20:4. I will insert numbers to indicate the DIFFERENT people who partake of the thrones and the first resurrection. "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw (1) the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and (2) for the word of God, and (3) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they (ALL) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    THREE different people are shown here:
    1. "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus". This would include ALL Christian martyrs since Stephen through the whole Church age
    2. "the souls of them that were beheaded for the word of God". This would include ALL men who died because they stood for God's Word since Abel through all ages of mankind
    3. "the souls of them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands". This would include ONLY those resisting Christians who are alive at the end of the age.

    Agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    The 5th seal plainly shows SOULS able to communicate and wear robes. Do they need a physical body in heaven? No. Why would anyone need a physical body in heaven?

    Also, what did Jesus actually say about being born again of the Spirit?

    John 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
    Man is made of three parts, spirit, soul and body (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). Rebirth ONLY pertains to the human spirit (Jn.3:6). RESURRECTION pertains ONLY to the BODY. 1 Corinthians 15:35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Humans have no concept of living without a physical body, which is why they teach so much resurrection. Jesus said plainly how those born again of the Spirit would move, like the wind and no one can tell where they are going. This isn't about having a new invisible fast body. Even Jesus' resurrection included appearing and disappearing at will. Until the NHNE there is no need whatsoever of a new physical body. Though I realize it is hard to think in those terms.
    On this we mostly agree. We should emphasize the NORMAL use of the Body in resurrection. Our Lord's special activities have a purpose that we do not have. Thus, once man has his new Body he is still subject to the laws that God put in place. Our Lord Jesus, after His resurrection, ate and was "carried", or "taken up" to heaven (Act.1:9) indicating outside help to overcome gravity - the angels no doubt.

  12. #42
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air

    God brings those who sleep in Jesus to the rapture. Then the dead in Christ are raised. Then the living join them in the air. IF those who sleep in Jesus and the dead in Christ are the same people, how does God bring them to the rapture before they rise?
    The dead SOULS are brought with God back to earth. They are not here right now. They are in heaven with God. So that makes absolute sense to me... If they were here already, why would God need to bring them back? Some of the "lost in translation" issues are that we do not easily separate Soul and Flesh from the word "DEAD" or "ASLEEP" in scripture. It has been logically shown how "fallen asleep in Jesus" is the exact same concept as "dead in Christ."

    As a side note, that verse also proves GOD the Father and the Son will be on the Clouds of Heaven when Jesus comes.

    Do you take 1 Cor 15:5-18 so literally that "those who sleep" are ONLY the died in Christ that SAW JESUS will come back with Jesus? It doesn't make sense to me, but I don't have to worry, as I saw Him too as Paul did. So would I "Sleep in Christ" when I die, or be "Dead in Christ" when I die? Doesn't that sound silly to ask? I do not believe what I saw makes a difference to whether I sleep or Die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    I understand we all want and teach instant gratification, but this creation isn't about us. It's about Him. You can believe what you want to of course. I would just ask why you reject what John said about the first resurrection in Rev 20? Those who get beheaded for not worshipping the beast or its image are the FIRST to be resurrected. This is either the first resurrection, or it isn't the first resurrection. Teaching that the rapture of anyone as a resurrection is basically says John was wrong.
    I have issues with instant gratification too. This generation is utterly spoiled with that.

    I do not reject Rev 20's First Resurrection. I believe it is a special resurrection.

    We can take the words "first Resurrection" to mean the following without denying the Word of God.

    1) The first resurrection AFTER the Physical Kingdom of Jesus is set up on earth.
    2) The first resurrection of the Dead that was beheaded by the Antichrist. (SOME of these will not have believed, so they will not be raised until after the 1000 years.)

    There are many interpretations (#2 is mine) we can understand without violating Scripture. I believe that the dead and sleeping in Christ before the 7 bowls are poured out will ALREADY have their Glorified bodies and will be with Jesus in Heaven (standing before the throne of God) as indicated in Rev 7:9-17 BEFORE Rev 19. God will have (by this point) already brought their souls to earth and Jesus raised them from the dead. So then, the beheaded, the 144,000 and the two witnesses are the only ones that have anything to do with Eternal life from that point on. Jesus takes care of resurrecting the dead two witnesses (oooppps... First resurrection) in Rev 11:11. Then Jesus takes care of redeeming the LIVING 144,000 off the earth in Rev 14:1-5. Both these sets of individuals are addressed before the 7 Bowls of Wrath are poured out. But then the SPIRITS of the beheaded are addressed AFTER THAT, right before the bowls of wrath are poured out. Rev 14:12-14. However their bodies are still on earth.

    All other Believing flesh is in heaven by the start of the Bowl of Wrath. ONLY the beheaded's bodies remain on the corrupt earth. So the first resurrection ONLY related to the dead bodies on the earth at the time of Jesus' RETURN AS KING, (not the Lamb Savior, which He had already appeared as.)

    If by saying "instant gratification", you are eluding to the idea that I hold onto the teaching of Pre-Tribulation Rapture, you are terribly mistaken. The rapture I believe in follows Matt 24. However many do not understand that the Cutting Short of the Great Tribulation (which MUST happen before the Resurrection) cuts off approximately 3 Years of the 3.5 year second half of the 70th Week. So then my position falls into Pre-Wrath (close to Mid-Trib).

  13. #43

    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Let us examine Revelation 20:4. I will insert numbers to indicate the DIFFERENT people who partake of the thrones and the first resurrection.

    "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw (1) the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and
    "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus". This would include ALL Christian martyrs since Stephen through the whole Church age
    John saw thrones and judgments given to saints worthy to sit with God the the Son on His throne.

    Also, John saw servants of God who live and reign with Christ a thousand years. These are souls who:are beheaded for their witness of the faith Jesus.

    Beheading

    We have to know what is figuratively referred to as the head. The head is the name: faith, truth word of God and kingdom are names of God. Altogether, there are seven names (heads, mountains) of God.

    A beheaded soul is, therefore, one from whom the name of God has been taken away, or one who is cut off from the name of God.

    Some physically alive or dead faithfuls are beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. They are cut off from the faith (substance of all things).


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    (2) for the word of God, and
    "the souls of them that were beheaded for the word of God". This would include ALL men who died because they stood for God's Word since Abel through all ages of mankind
    Also, some physically alive or dead believers are beheaded for the word of God .They are cut off from the truth (anointing).


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    (3) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they (ALL) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    "the souls of them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands". This would include ONLY those resisting Christians who are alive at the end of the age.
    Also, some physically alive or dead saints are beheaded for neither worshiping the beast coming out of the sea nor his image, and for not receiving the beast's mark on their foreheads (innermost minds) or in their hands (spirits). They are cut off from the kingdom (great and eternal name).


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Man is made of three parts, spirit, soul and body (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). Rebirth ONLY pertains to the human spirit (Jn.3:6). RESURRECTION pertains ONLY to the BODY. 1 Corinthians 15:35, "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"
    In heaven, we are spirit and/or life. Each has a body.

    On earth, we are flesh and blood and/or soul. Each has a body. And we are given our spirits to relate with heaven.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  14. #44
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    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thanks for the answer. I would like first to address this point, for more than one on this Forum thinks what you think. Let us examine Revelation 20:4. I will insert numbers to indicate the DIFFERENT people who partake of the thrones and the first resurrection. "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw (1) the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and (2) for the word of God, and (3) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they (ALL) lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    THREE different people are shown here:
    1. "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus". This would include ALL Christian martyrs since Stephen through the whole Church age
    2. "the souls of them that were beheaded for the word of God". This would include ALL men who died because they stood for God's Word since Abel through all ages of mankind
    3. "the souls of them which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands". This would include ONLY those resisting Christians who are alive at the end of the age.

    Agree?
    Clearly there is a forth group in this passage namely "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them"


    Agree?

  15. #45

    Re: The Quickening

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Clearly there is a forth group in this passage namely "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them"


    Agree?
    I, too, see these as distinct from the others in the verse.

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