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Thread: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

  1. #76
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As you don't believe in a MK after Jesus returns I understand your position.
    Thankyou , appreciate that.


    Where those who were raised at Jesus' death resurrected at that time to eternal life?
    They are guaranteed Eternal life just as much as we are through what Jesus did for us. The time for reward ( redemption of the body ) comes at his second coming, for ALL of mankind who have believed...pre Christ , post Christ , living or dead.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  2. #77
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    They are dead. Yet, they face a second death if they are not found in the BoL. Think about it. How can you die if you are already dead?
    I agree they face a second death as Rev 20:6 states. Why do you assume that the second death is like the first? What if the second death is a death of the dead, no the living?

  3. #78
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    They are guaranteed Eternal life just as much as we are through what Jesus did for us. The time for reward ( redemption of the body ) comes at his second coming, for ALL of mankind who have believed...pre Christ , post Christ , living or dead.
    Actually the transformation of the bodies alive or dead of those found worthy and their names are in the Book of Life, does not happen until the end of the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7.
    Just as Paul prophesied in 1 Cor 15:50-56. only then is Death no more.
    We know there is death during the Millennium: Isaiah 65:20

  4. #79
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I agree they face a second death as Rev 20:6 states. Why do you assume that the second death is like the first? What if the second death is a death of the dead, no the living?
    Correct. In Matthew 10:28 TWO deaths are revealed. "And fear not them which (1) kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to (2) destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

    Death, which was the portion of all men because of the "sin" nature of Adam is what we see all around us. This grand and beautiful earth is sadly one big graveyard. But our Lord Jesus is, "... the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). This gives God the judicial right to resurrect ALL men, the which is promised in 1st Corinthians 15:22. This death is then "destroyed" (1st Cor.15:26) at the Great White Throne when Hades gives up its dead (Rev.20:13).

    But another death is threatened for men by our Lord Jesus - that of "body and soul in Gehenna". To explain this death we couple Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:44-48 with the meaning of the Greek word in Matthew 10:28 above. The word is "apollymi" and does NOT mean annihilation. It means "lack of well-being" in the sense that an object has been rendered useless for the intended purpose. To show the meaning we study the word "apollymi" in Luke 5:37. "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles (literally "wine-skins" or "bladder"); else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish." The wine-skins are still wine-skins after they are burst, but they experience extreme dissatisfaction or "lack of well-being" because they no longer exercise the activity that they were designed for. So also people.

    All men will be resurrected from death. That is, they come out of Hades and receive a new body. But those who actively opposed God (Isa.66:24) are afflicted by God with an intense and everlasting "dissatisfaction", or "lack of well-being". It is, "... their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh" (Isaiah 66:24; Mk.9:44-48).

    The word "THEIR" shows TWO things;
    1. It is PERSONAL. That is, the worm and the fire are personally carried INTERNALLY
    2. It is in accordance with God's justice. Each man or woman suffers commensurately for their "transgressions"

    In this death of the "body and soul" the vital thing to remember is that these people have been resurrected and possess their new bodies. They can therefore never die again (Heb.9:27). The suffering of the Second Death is excruciating and everlasting and there is no escape from it.

    Note: Note the difference between the word "destroy" in 1st Corinthians 15:25, where death is destroyed, and Matthew 10:28 where people, in bodies are "destroyed". The word "destroyed" in 1st Corinthians 15:26 is "katargeō" (Strong's). It means; "to be or to render entirely idle, or useless, to abolish, become (make) of no (none, without) effect, make void." Death is "made void" by the resurrection of the totality of men, but men are destroyed by "intense lack of physical and soulish well-being".

  5. #80
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    All men will be resurrected from death. That is, they come out of Hades and receive a new body. But those who actively opposed God (Isa.66:24) are afflicted by God with an intense and everlasting "dissatisfaction", or "lack of well-being". It is, "... their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh" (Isaiah 66:24; Mk.9:44-48).
    They are certainly resurrected (brought up from the grave and from the place of death), however being given another body is separated from the word resurrection and is termed QUICKENED, which is not used at the GWTJ.

    John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

    Acts 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

    Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


    If they were given new bodies in Rev 20:12-15, the Word would have stated that they were quickened. It does not, but rather plainly explains that they stand before the throne DEAD. Not living. ONLY the dead are judged at the GWTJ. All those who already have eternal life WILL NOT BE JUDGED, as they were already judged, and have already received their reward.

    I am not saying that all those who are dead at that point WONT be quickened into eternal bodies, because some very well might. But certainly not ALL Dead will be Quickened. However they will exist forever in torment being TWICE DEAD, yet still FEELING everything. (Their conscience and soul are still being tormented forever.)

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Many often erroneously apply the same concept of physical death to that of spiritual death and there, they run into trouble. Because death in these two spheres is not the same. The difference in these two dispensations is huge. In the former, everything ceases and there's no sense of consciousness, but in the latter a certain level of awareness exists that enables the dead to fill feel the pains of torment.

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    They are dead. Yet, they face a second death if they are not found in the BoL. Think about it. How can you die if you are already dead?
    Easy, you die a second death if you have been raised to life. This is what is stated in Rev 20. There are those who are raised at His coming and those raised for judgement after the MK.

  8. #83
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Actually the transformation of the bodies alive or dead of those found worthy and their names are in the Book of Life, does not happen until the end of the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7.
    Just as Paul prophesied in 1 Cor 15:50-56. only then is Death no more.
    We know there is death during the Millennium: Isaiah 65:20
    Unless you are misunderstanding and misinterpretting Isaiah 65:20.

    Isaiah 65:20 in discussing the characteristics of the New Heavens and the New Earth; is emploring the literary techinique of verbal irony related to 'death' and 'sinner' in that verse.

    Revelation 21 quotes much of Isaiah 65 passages related to the New Heavens and New Earth verbatim; except for the verbal irony part of 65:20; John in this case, avoids the sometimes confusing verbal irony language of Isaiah, and instead replaces it with a more blunt and clear passage instead stating inRev 20:4 that "and there shall be no more death".

    When you understand Isaiah 65:20's use of verbal irony related to death; and then how John quoted Isaiah 65 related to the New Heavens and New Earth and replaced it with the more clear and direct phrase; the time of the resurrection of the dead becomes very clear; at the same time for both the wicked and the just; on the last day of mortality for all men; when all graves are opened up; and all men are judged; just as Jesus Himself told us directly and clear:

    John's Gospel "5:28 Jesus said, Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 11:24 I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. "

  9. #84
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    There seems to be some confusion here re the second death, mentioned in Revelation 20:6

    This death applies to the martyrs who are brought back to life by Jesus, at His Return. They are resurrected in the same way as Lazarus was and can die again, as he did. But as Martha said: I know he will rise again on the last Day. John 11:24
    But those killed by the Anti-Christ during his 3 1/2 year control of the world, Revelation 13:5-9, will be raised to life, Revelation 20:4, but not yet to immortality and they may live for the Millennium, but if any do die again, naturally or by an accident, their names are in the Book of Life, therefore their 'second death' has no power over them.

    All the people who have ever lived dead and alive, will stand before the Great White Throne, after the Millennium is over. Revelation 20:11-15 Which is indisputably: the last Day.
    It does not say the dead get new bodies at that time. As this is a spiritual event those 'dead' will be just their souls/spirits present then.
    Those living at that time and who oppose the Lord, will most probably be a part of the final army gathered by Satan and get totally burned up by God. Revelation 20:9 But those living who are faithful Godly people and whose names are in the Book of life, will never die and will instantly be changed into immortality, as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56.

    Sorry, David Taylor, I don't buy 'verbal irony' in the Bible prophesies.

  10. #85
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Actually the transformation of the bodies alive or dead of those found worthy and their names are in the Book of Life, does not happen until the end of the Millennium.
    I agree....but how can you deny that this transformation / glorification doesn't happen at his glorious second coming.??

    When he appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

    When he comes in the glory of his Father and all the Angels with him , we shall inherit the total and full reward, prepared from the foundation of the world.


    1000 years of more of this nonsense is out of the question. Today is the day.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    I agree....but how can you deny that this transformation / glorification doesn't happen at his glorious second coming.??

    When he appears we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.

    When he comes in the glory of his Father and all the Angels with him , we shall inherit the total and full reward, prepared from the foundation of the world.


    1000 years of more of this nonsense is out of the question. Today is the day.
    Whatever the 'transformation/glorification' of those faithful ones alive at the Return will be, it isn't into immortality. That cannot happen until after the GWT Judgement and the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:12

    The Millennium of 1000 years with Jesus as King, will be a wonderful time. There will still be death and still those who refuse allegiance to Jesus. They all come together at the end of the Millennium and attack Jesus. Fire from heaven will totally burn them up. Revelation 20:9

  12. #87

    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You say John will be resurrected for the Millennium Kingdom yet you fail to deal with the statement of Jesus that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven (singular not plural) is greater than John.
    Martha and Job did well know what that Last day was, and it was the Day of Judgement.
    The Day of Judgement does NOT refer to the start of the Millennium, but the period highlighted by this OP that of the GWToJ.
    Did you, by chance, see the partial response I made, to [parts of] your post #38, in my post #60?

    I believe "the day of judgment" starts when Jesus STANDS to judge [SEAL #1 at the start of the 7-yr trib, 7 yrs before His "return" to the earth], and that 1Jn4:17 says "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment"... I believe part of this will involve our "we shall judge angels" 1Cor6:2-3 [I believe this is what purpose the 24 "thrones" are involved in, for one, in Rev4-5], and spans a long period of time (rather than, say, a 24-hr period of time). I tried to explain a bit of my view in the post #60 [see that post]

    ... and I've posted, before, on verses such as Mt12:41-42 and Lk11:31-32 do not mean the two contrasting groups "resurrect" at the same time/moment (as "rise / rise up" can also mean, 'to a place of prominence' [not always a 'physical resurrection [from the dead]'], though those "[unsaved] dead" [named in these verses] do not "stand before God" until the GWTj point in time [Rev20].)


    You say John will be resurrected for the Millennium Kingdom yet you fail to deal with the statement of Jesus that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven (singular not plural) is greater than John.
    In post #60 I point out how every usage of "the kingdom of the heavens [plural]" is stated that way. But I'm not sure what problem you are having with my view, with regard to your reference about John the Baptist and how "the least" in the kingdom of the heavens [which I believe is the earthly MK upon His "return"] is greater than he (which I believe most likely refers to "the least of these My brethren [the believing remnant of Israel in the tribulation period who act as His servants of that time period, and who deliver the specific "this gospel of the kingdom" msg of invitation [to all the nations] Matt24:14,26:13 / Rev19:9 [FOR the MK / wedding FEAST/SUPPER] to the "guests" [particularly the Gentiles, like in Matt25:31-34 and Matt13:47 ("into the sea, and gathered of every kind")]).

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Did you, by chance, see the partial response I made, to [parts of] your post #38, in my post #60?

    I believe "the day of judgment" starts when Jesus STANDS to judge [SEAL #1 at the start of the 7-yr trib, 7 yrs before His "return" to the earth], and that 1Jn4:17 says "that we may have boldness in the day of judgment"... I believe part of this will involve our "we shall judge angels" 1Cor6:2-3 [I believe this is what purpose the 24 "thrones" are involved in, for one, in Rev4-5], and spans a long period of time (rather than, say, a 24-hr period of time). I tried to explain a bit of my view in the post #60 [see that post]

    ... and I've posted, before, on verses such as Mt12:41-42 and Lk11:31-32 do not mean the two contrasting groups "resurrect" at the same time/moment (as "rise / rise up" can also mean, 'to a place of prominence' [not always a 'physical resurrection [from the dead]'], though those "[unsaved] dead" [named in these verses] do not "stand before God" until the GWTj point in time [Rev20].)




    In post #60 I point out how every usage of "the kingdom of the heavens [plural]" is stated that way. But I'm not sure what problem you are having with my view, with regard to your reference about John the Baptist and how "the least" in the kingdom of the heavens [which I believe is the earthly MK upon His "return"] is greater than he (which I believe most likely refers to "the least of these My brethren [the believing remnant of Israel in the tribulation period who act as His servants of that time period, and who deliver the specific "this gospel of the kingdom" msg of invitation [to all the nations] Matt24:14,26:13 / Rev19:9 [FOR the MK / wedding FEAST/SUPPER] to the "guests" [particularly the Gentiles, like in Matt25:31-34 and Matt13:47 ("into the sea, and gathered of every kind")]).
    I don't find it says plural heavens. Not in the KJV or ESV or other versions.
    Further John the Baptist who is the greatest born to woman is less than the least who is born from above. This distinguishes a difference between OT saints, of whom John is the last, and NT saints such as the bandit on the cross.
    IOW Jesus makes a distinction and we need to understand that distinction and it's implications.

  14. #89

    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I don't find it says plural heavens. Not in the KJV or ESV or other versions.
    I don't find one instance where "the kingdom of the heavens [plural]" is not stated this way, wherever it is found recorded (not meaning in the various versions, but interlinear in Greek). Perhaps you can find one and let me know:

    http://biblehub.com/greek/ourano_n_3772.htm [see the verses where "the kingdom of the heavens [plural]" is referred to; you may have to click on each of the links to those individual verses, to see this]


    Into the "kingdom of the heavens" will enter the Sheep [of the Sheep and goats of the nations (plural)], the plural Virgins/Bridesmaids [these are likely of Israel (nation, singular)] at the time of His Second Coming to the earth. I see John the Baptist as the "friend of the Bridegroom," but "the least of these My brethren" [future, during trib] are not only "greater in number," but have "greater revelation" to work with, spread their msg into "greater impact [to all nations]," and will be suffering "greater persecution" than he, even though they come in at the ending part (when it will again be "near"), and he came in at the first point of when "the kingdom of the heavens" was said to have [at that time] been "at hand" (back in JtB's day [Mt3:1-2]; this ceased being said, at some point during His earthly ministry/first advent, but in my view will pick up and resume in the future trib [pointing always to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly MK (i.e. "the kingdom of the heavens" on the earth, when Jesus is present there, upon His "return")]).

  15. #90

    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    I was looking at the plural "ouranōn" ^ (at the link I provided, plus the links that takes you to)

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