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Thread: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

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    GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    GWTJ = "Great White Throne Judgement"

    I have heard some teach that the GWTJ is a time where there would be a resurrection of all dead and a Judgement. But I ask you, does God judge the living or the dead at this Judgement? The verse we are pointing to is here:

    Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    1) Does this verse say God is judging the Dead or the Living?

    2) If a person's name is not written in the book of Life, does he have eternal life?

    Then we have this:

    Revelatin 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    This verse then brings up new questions, which varies on our understanding of Rev 20:12-15.

    For example, if we believe that the dead are "alive" in the GWTJ, verses 5-6 means that all dead will be raised in a second resurrection. (Are there those during the 1000 years that gain eternal life?)

    BUT, if we believe that God is only judging the "DEAD" as scripture indicates, we must then ask WHO then "lives again" after the 1000 years?

    Or, should we now define "the dead lived not again until", and determine if "lived" means "eternal life" or just a physical animating of flesh in order to address the sins that were performed therein?

    What are your thought, Brothers in Christ?

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    And another Question to ponder:

    If the GWTJ is to judge the Dead, why do some teach that ALL people dead and living (those already endowed with eternal life) will be judged?

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    GWTJ = "Great White Throne Judgement"

    I have heard some teach that the GWTJ is a time where there would be a resurrection of all dead and a Judgement. But I ask you, does God judge the living or the dead at this Judgement? The verse we are pointing to is here:

    Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which was in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which was in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    1) Does this verse say God is judging the Dead or the Living?
    Clearly It says only the Dead here are Judged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    2) If a person's name is not written in the book of Life, does he have eternal life?
    NO

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Then we have this:

    Revelatin 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    This verse then brings up new questions, which varies on our understanding of Rev 20:12-15.

    For example, if we believe that the dead are "alive" in the GWTJ, verses 5-6 means that all dead will be raised in a second resurrection. (Are there those during the 1000 years that gain eternal life?)

    BUT, if we believe that God is only judging the "DEAD" as scripture indicates, we must then ask WHO then "lives again" after the 1000 years?

    Or, should we now define "the dead lived not again until", and determine if "lived" means "eternal life" or just a physical animating of flesh in order to address the sins that were performed therein?

    What are your thought, Brothers in Christ?
    Personally, i believe That those who take Part in the first Ressurection Recieve Eternal Life. The Main person on these threads that I've seen argue for eternal life coming only after the Millenium is Keraz usually in this form

    Quote Keraz: 1/ the only dead in Christ who will come alive again at the Return of Jesus, is those martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation. Confirmed by Revelation 20:4
    There is no 'transformation of any humans into immortality' until the Great White Throne Judgement, after the Millennium. Proved by Revelation 20:11-15
    Pauls prophesy in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is about this time too, not before.

    The question should be How does Rev 20:11-15 "Prove" Keraz Position??

    The glaring weakness IMHO in Keraz position is that he must Ignore where Paul is actually quoting from which is why if you go thru all of his points on this belief you will notice he Never actually quotes the passage that Paul is quoting Hosea 13:14.

    The question then Should be WHY? WHY does someone who usually quotes a Multitude of OT and NT Scripture ignore a DIRECT REFERENCE FROM PAUL.

    I believe the answer is found in the relevant passage.

    Hosea 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.

    10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?

    11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.

    12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hidden.

    13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children.

    14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

    15 Though he be fruitful among his brethren, an east wind shall come, the wind of the Lord shall come up from the wilderness, and his spring shall become dry, and his fountain shall be dried up: he shall spoil the treasure of all pleasant vessels.

    16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

    Notice this passage in No way connects to Rev 20:11-15. Nor does this passage suggest its fulfillment occurs after the Millenial Reign of Christ.

    The only way to accept Keraz view is to ignore Hosea 13 (as he does once more notice it is NEVER presented in his exegesis of this passage) he prefers his own personal connection to Rev 20:11-15 as what he calls "proof" But as you quoted do you see any mention of Immortality being conferred in Rev 20:11-15? So what is the "PROOF"? Outside of Kerazs only claim that the passage is proof? And why does someone whose mission on this threads of Spreading the Prophetic Word IGNORE the Words of Hosea that Paul DIRECTLY QUOTES?

    Also does Rev 20:4 suggest that those who are brought back to life can die again?

    They lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    They lived with Christ a thousand years
    According to Keraz view, they Lived and Reined with Christ until they "died again" as he says here.

    Quote Keraz: 1 Thess 4 at the Return of Jesus, when those who remain will be gathered to where Jesus is, that is: in Jerusalem.
    2/ There is no change to immortality for anyone until the Book of Life is opened. Even those martyrs brought back to life may die again, that is why Revelation 20:6 says this second death will have no power over them because their names are in the Book of Life.

    Overall until he somehow can show how Hosea 13 fits into his view that this event occurs AFTER the Millenium I suggest his view should be avoided.

    Also i challenge those who read over this to ask how does Keraz's view fit in with this passage?

    Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post

    Or, should we now define "the dead lived not again until", and determine if "lived" means "eternal life" or just a physical animating of flesh in order to address the sins that were performed therein?
    Nope, we shouldn't define that as eternal life. Clearly the only ones obtaining eternal life in Rev 20 are those that have part in the first resurrection. This has to include saints all the way back to the beginning of time. In case some might disagree, consider the following then.

    Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


    How can the end of the days not be meaning the end of this age we are currently living in? And if the first resurrection will also include Daniel, how could it not also include all the saints that lived before his time?

    So when the rest of the dead are said to live again, it is meaning they too will be resurrected like those in the first resurrection are, except in their case they are resurrected to be condemned to the LOF, apparently. And since Rev 20 indicates it is only the dead at that judgment, there couldn't possibly also be saints already in immortal bodies being judged there as well. They wouldn't be considered the dead at that point, nor would they need to be resurrected again if they are already resurrected when the first resurrection occurs.

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    1) In order to answer your question, we need to consider HOW a dead person can stand before God.
    For me this requires then to be raised to life.
    IOW the dead in this verse means those who were dead and now have been brought out of the place of the dead for judgement.
    This is clarified in verse 13 where the sea and death and hades are emptied of the dead. So the phrase "the dead" means everyone who was not raised at the first resurrection.
    This also then is clarified in verse 5 - the dead lived not again UNTIL... which means they did live again after the thousand years.

    So though it clearly says "the dead" we need to understand WHAT "the dead" means in context, which we discover means all who were not part of the first resurrection of verse 5.

    2) If you are not in the Book of Life you are cast into the LoF seems clear. What many though don't seem to get is when someone's name might be written in that Book.
    There are various ideas which are debated, but for me the clear purpose here is one of judgement.
    Judgement is not merely sentencing where you hear someone's crimes and then give a suitable punishment. Judgement rather involves an element of judging whether someone should be punished in the first place.
    This is clarified in verse 12 where they are judged according to what is written in the Books. The word books is in the plural, meaning more than one book and is not meaning the Book of Life. These books are about the works of the person.
    This is in full accord with all scripture and is stated by Paul in Romans 2.
    Now when we recognise that those being judged in this way are "the dead" which therefore does NOT include those who are in Jesus, then we see it is not a judgement of Christians, but of the world.
    Some would argue against this saying - but Jesus is the ONLY way to eternal life.
    I completely agree. What we have here though is Jesus making a judgement and He decides whose name will be written in the Book of Life. This means that Jesus remains the ONLY way for eternal life. The good news we have is that we won't face this judgement - confirmed in 1 John 4.

    Now this leads to further thoughts - for example is Daniel resurrected in the 1st resurrection or the 2nd?
    My view is that ONLY those who are in Jesus are resurrected at His return - at the start of the 1000 years. Everyone else, like Daniel are resurrected for judgement after the 1000 years.

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    My view is that ONLY those who are in Jesus are resurrected at His return - at the start of the 1000 years. Everyone else, like Daniel are resurrected for judgement after the 1000 years.
    Daniel 12:13*But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


    So you take this to mean....But go thou thy way till the end OF THE THOUSAND YEARS be, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days AT THE END OF THE THOUSAND YEARS?

    I'm guessing Amils would actually agree with this. But at least it makes sense per their view, not that I'm agreeing with their view. I don't see it making sense with Premil though, if at the end of the days is not meaning the end of this age, but is meaning the end of the still to come future 1000 years instead.

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    GWTJ = "Great White Throne Judgement"

    I have heard some teach that the GWTJ is a time where there would be a resurrection of all dead and a Judgement. But I ask you, does God judge the living or the dead at this Judgement? The verse we are pointing to is here:

    Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    1) Does this verse say God is judging the Dead or the Living?

    2) If a person's name is not written in the book of Life, does he have eternal life?

    Then we have this:

    Revelatin 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    This verse then brings up new questions, which varies on our understanding of Rev 20:12-15.

    For example, if we believe that the dead are "alive" in the GWTJ, verses 5-6 means that all dead will be raised in a second resurrection. (Are there those during the 1000 years that gain eternal life?)

    BUT, if we believe that God is only judging the "DEAD" as scripture indicates, we must then ask WHO then "lives again" after the 1000 years?

    Or, should we now define "the dead lived not again until", and determine if "lived" means "eternal life" or just a physical animating of flesh in order to address the sins that were performed therein?

    What are your thought, Brothers in Christ?
    I hope the short answer will suffice. Many Christians think that we go to heaven when we die. This annuls the resurrection, even of Christians, for what then is the purpose of resurrection? Then, some Christians believe in the resurrection but think that only Christians are resurrected. But this is not the case. In John 5:28-29 no less than our Lord Jesus Himself said;

    28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And
    (ALL) shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

    I have added the second "ALL" for the grammar implies it. This sets the tone for resurrection. And there are TWO crucial facts about the resurrection;
    1. ALL men will be raised from physical death
    2. ALL men will be judged after this ON THEIR WORKS

    (1)
    1st Corinthians 15:22 confirms point #1. It reads; "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." Before we go further, it would do us good to appreciate the Almighty. Contemporary Christian doctrine says that a few men and women who believe in Jesus (say about 3% of all men who ever lived) will scrape into heaven through the Pearly Gates, and the rest of men will go to the Lake of Fire. But the Bible says that God, just as He did before when He made the earth pristine for Adam in seven days, will restore and reconcile all things again in seven days of one thousand years. That is, from Adam to New Jerusalem on the new Earth will be seven "days" of 1,000 years. The Greek word for "New" in "New Heavens and New Earth" means "RENEWED" or "MADE PRISTINE". Part of this total recovery is that ALL men will vacate death. 1st Corinthians 15:55-56 says, after a whole Chapter on resurrection;

    55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
    56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law."


    If just ONE MAN is still dead at the end of this restoration and reconciliation then these verses must be untrue. Note the cause of death - "sin" (singular). When doctrine is set forth by the Bible, the word "sin" in the singular means the Adamic nature which has been passed on to every man except Jesus Christ, and which causes us to trespass and later die (Rom.6:23). Our Lord Jesus was not brought forth from the line of Adam via Joseph. He was brought forth from the line of Adam via Mary. That makes Him 100% Man, but since Mary was inseminated by the Holy Spirit, the male part, that perpetuates the Adamic nature was missing. Sin is passed to EVERY man (and woman) via the male sperm. It is, in Romans 5:12; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Notice that (1) "sin" is singular, (2) that "sin" ENTERED by ONE man - Adam, and (3) the word "so" means "in the same manner", thus,"sin" passed UPON ALL MEN by one MAN - Adam. And the most crucial fact is found in John 1:29. "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin (SINGULAR) of the world."

    This part of our Lord Jesus' Work on the cross was not so that ALL men would be saved. It is a work by Jesus on the cross that allows a righteous God to RAISE ALL MEN FROM THE DEAD, for Romans 6:23 assures us; "For the wages of sin (SINGULAR) is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." If we go back to the Book of Leviticus we will see that there were FIVE main offerings - (1) the Burnt Offering, (2) The Meal Offering, (3) the Peace Offering, (4) the SIN (SINGULAR) Offering, and (5) the TRESPASS (plural) Offering. Our Lord Jesus fulfilled ALL of them and it would take Book to explain them. But note numbers 4 and 5. One is that our Lord Jesus died and dealt with SIN (SINGULAR) - the Adamic nature. But His death was for ALL the TRESPASSES that would come out of the SIN-NATURE. This is covered in 1st John 2:2; "And he is the propitiation for our sins (PLURAL): and not for ours only, but also for the sins (PLURAL) of the whole world."

    (2)
    John 1:29 is the JUDICIAL setting aside of the sin-nature of Adam, and it allows God to RAISE every man from the dead. 1st John 2:2 is the JUDICIAL setting aside of all SINS or TRESPASSES, BUT IT IS THIS ACT OF OUR LORD JESUS THAT IS CONNECTED WITH SALVATION. All men, whether they like it or not, WILL BE RAISED from the GRAVE, from DEATH, from HADES. But only those men who believe in Jesus as their Substitute and confess Him with their mouths, are guaranteed NOT to land in the Lake of Fire forever. If a man believes in, and confesses Jesus Christ and His Work, his TRESPASSES are dealt with by the blood of Christ. If a man refuses Jesus Christ then he must answer for his TRESPASSES.

    ALL men, starting with our Lord Jesus are JUDGED. And every man who stands judged is JUDGED WHILE HE IS ALIVE. And he is judged on his WORKS.
    1. The judgement on our Lord Jesus has met this response from God. Philippians 2:9-11, "9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." The word "Wherefore" connects this judgement and reward with verse 8 - WHAT OUR LORD JESUS DID, that is, HIS WORKS.
    2. Next, every Christian will face a special Judgment Seat called the "Bema" (a traveling throne of kings visiting distant conquests - Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10) in the sky after rapture. They will be judged concerning, "... that every one may receive the things DONE in his body, according to that he hath DONE, whether it be good or bad." The judgment of Christians is about what the DID after conversion. And the reward is (1) to be a co-king with Jesus when He rules the earth starting from the Millennium until "forever", and (2) to be allowed in to celebrate the Marriage FEAST of the Lamb. Conversely, the slothful, immature, sinful and indifferent Christian will SUFFER a loss. This loss is (1) to be shut out of the Millennial Kingdom after Christ returns, (2) be cast from the presence of Christ for 1,000 years, (3) be cast in "outer" darkness - the logical end of one not in the presence of Christ, (4) be punished with stripes, and (5) be refused entry to the Marriage FEAST of the Lamb. Just as Israel was chastised for 2,000 years and then restored by God's grace, so also we see these wayward Christian restored at the end of the Millennium where, on the New Earth, "... God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Revelation 21:4).
    3. Next, every Israelite who ever lived will be judged on their WORKS of Law. Romans 2:12b says; "... and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." The result of this judgment of those under Law cannot be better said than Daniel 12:2. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." "All Israel will be saved". That is, returned to their Land in prosperity to be the leading nation with Emmanuel living with them. But within Israel men like David and Daniel will be famous and praised by God. Men like Saul and Solomon will be there, but in "shame and everlasting contempt". Note that the judgment of Daniel 12:2 is after they "awake".
    4. When our Lord has finished the Battle of Armageddon, He will, as New King over the earth (by military default), set up His throne and judge THOSE OF THE NATIONS WHO SURVIVE THE GREAT TRIBULATION. This judgment is found in Matthew 25:31-46. Those of the nations, the unbelievers, will be judged on what they DID to Christians and Jews during the Great Tribulation. We see in Revelation 12 that a large portion of Christians (who have the testimony of Jesus Christ), and the Remnant of the Jews (who keep the commandments of God) are threatened for 1260 days. It is during this time that some of those of the nations will take pity on them and give them what they need, at great risk from the Beast and his universal police force. These who met the simplest to the most dire need of a Christian and a Jew during these 1260 days will be allowed into the Millennial Kingdom as SUBJECTS (not co-kings like Christians). Those who took the part of the Beast, and refused a Christian or a Jew what he needed, will be cast into the Lake of Fire FOREVER. Note that these nations are ALL ALIVE when the judgement takes place.
    5. "The rest of the dead", that is, all men from Cain onward who ever lived, and who have died, including the hoards who die in the great Tribulation, those who die during the Millennium (for it ill be a "rule of the rod of iron" and Noah's Covenant of the death penalty is still in force), and the hoards who die in Gog and Magog's rebellion at the end of the Millennium, WILL BE RESURRECTED AND FACE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT. Just as ALL men, from Jesus Christ onward, they will be resurrected before Judgment, ALL MEN WILL BE ALIVE WHEN THEY STAND BEFORE JESUS CHRIST WHO IS APPOINTED BY GOD TO JUDGE THE LIVING AND THE DEAD (Act.10:42; 2nd Tim.4:1; 1st Pet.4:5).

    This is an abbreviated version. I realize that there will be some questions.

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Now this leads to further thoughts - for example is Daniel resurrected in the 1st resurrection or the 2nd?
    My view is that ONLY those who are in Jesus are resurrected at His return - at the start of the 1000 years. Everyone else, like Daniel are resurrected for judgement after the 1000 years.
    I disagree, in that, Dan12:13 [about Daniel] says he will "stand in thy lot at the end of the days"... I believe this means the "end of the days" in THAT CONTEXT (meaning, after the 2nd half of the trib [i.e. at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, aka "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth, upon His 'return']" aka "the wedding feast/supper"]... the "meal" [Lk12:36-38,40]... the "shall sit down [G347 (most often used in the sense of "at a meal")]" of Matt8:11-12 and Lk13:28-29 (I think I have those two references correct... I'll go check when I get a minute to do so)--note that these two verses speak of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being present there (and His disciples were told they would sit at His table ['eat and drink' there], then, Luk22:30; etc)]



    As for the OP Q, my view is that the GWTj is only for "the dead" (which I believe means "the [unsaved] dead" of all times). I see a distinction between "the book of life" [a record of all living / all who have ever lived [like in Ps69:28] (names may be "blotted out" of THIS book [Rev3:5]); originally in Adam & Eve, you could say] and "the Lamb's book of life" [record of all saved (one's name can NEVER be blotted out of THIS book; only "written in" or "not written in"... at any point during history/time)]

    Those resurrected in "the resurrection of LIFE," are present for the earthly MK, in my view [pre-mill view].
    Those "still living" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth [saints/the righteous] enter the MK time period, and it is said of them: "but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt25:46) ["The Resurrection and The Life" Himself will be present there; I don't believe these will ever die, per John 11:26]


    Those "IN CHRIST" ['the Church which is His body'] are resurrected/raptured ['rapture' pertains SOLELY to these] before that point in time [before the START/ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord [time period]" which includes the "7 years"], but these I mentioned before, ^ above, "ARE Christ's" (and will be 'resurrected [to stand again on the earth]' "at His coming" [that is, to the earth]).

    "...each in his own order"

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    GWTJ = "Great White Throne Judgement"

    I have heard some teach that the GWTJ is a time where there would be a resurrection of all dead and a Judgement. But I ask you, does God judge the living or the dead at this Judgement? The verse we are pointing to is here:

    Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    1) Does this verse say God is judging the Dead or the Living?

    2) If a person's name is not written in the book of Life, does he have eternal life?

    Then we have this:

    Revelatin 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    This verse then brings up new questions, which varies on our understanding of Rev 20:12-15.

    For example, if we believe that the dead are "alive" in the GWTJ, verses 5-6 means that all dead will be raised in a second resurrection. (Are there those during the 1000 years that gain eternal life?)

    BUT, if we believe that God is only judging the "DEAD" as scripture indicates, we must then ask WHO then "lives again" after the 1000 years?

    Or, should we now define "the dead lived not again until", and determine if "lived" means "eternal life" or just a physical animating of flesh in order to address the sins that were performed therein?

    What are your thought, Brothers in Christ?
    Things to note:
    As Revelation 20:11-13 says it is the dead who are Judged. They are not brought back into living physical bodies for this Judgement, so we must assume it is all the souls of the dead who come before the Throne.

    The second death is the final one and is for everyone whose names are not in the Book of life. So those martyrs and Lazarus too, who are brought back to life, Revelation 20:4, can and do die again naturally. But as their names are in the Book of Life, then the second death does not affect them.

    But Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, that those who are alive at the end of the Millennium and whose names are in the Book of Life, will be changed in a flash into immortality. Only then, is Death no more and all the faithful believers, who have endured until the end are victorious through Christ, 1 Cor 15:37, Revelation 22:14
    Revelation 21:7 This is the victors heritage: I will be their God and they will be My children.

    Remember, we born again Christians have the promise of Eternal life, but not the reality until the final Judgement, after the Millennium. Despite what Dr Charles Stanley teaches: Once Saved; Always Saved, is not correct. We have all seen some spectacular crashes of renowned Pastors, etc and I personally know a man who was a great Christian, undoubtedly born again, but he fell and he knows that Hebrews 10:26-31 applies to him.
    We must keep strong in our faith, there is coming a great test for all alive at that time, Revelation 6:12-17 and I believe it will be soon. The Lord's Day of wrath against the nations will be triggered by an attack on Israel.
    Ezekiel 7:14 The trumpet has sounded, but no one goes to war, for their actions bring forth My wrath.

  10. #10
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Things to note:
    As Revelation 20:11-13 says it is the dead who are Judged. They are not brought back into living physical bodies for this Judgement, so we must assume it is all the souls of the dead who come before the Throne.

    The second death is the final one and is for everyone whose names are not in the Book of life. So those martyrs and Lazarus too, who are brought back to life, Revelation 20:4, can and do die again naturally. But as their names are in the Book of Life, then the second death does not affect them.

    But Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, that those who are alive at the end of the Millennium and whose names are in the Book of Life, will be changed in a flash into immortality. Only then, is Death no more and all the faithful believers, who have endured until the end are victorious through Christ, 1 Cor 15:37, Revelation 22:14
    Revelation 21:7 This is the victors heritage: I will be their God and they will be My children.

    Remember, we born again Christians have the promise of Eternal life, but not the reality until the final Judgement, after the Millennium. Despite what Dr Charles Stanley teaches: Once Saved; Always Saved, is not correct. We have all seen some spectacular crashes of renowned Pastors, etc and I personally know a man who was a great Christian, undoubtedly born again, but he fell and he knows that Hebrews 10:26-31 applies to him.
    We must keep strong in our faith, there is coming a great test for all alive at that time, Revelation 6:12-17 and I believe it will be soon. The Lord's Day of wrath against the nations will be triggered by an attack on Israel.
    Ezekiel 7:14 The trumpet has sounded, but no one goes to war, for their actions bring forth My wrath.
    Why does your postion on 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 make no mention of Hosea 13:14?

    When do you believe Hosea Chapts 13-14 have been fullfiled?

    IF you believe they still wait for future fullfiment can you explain how they are fullfilled AFTER the Millenial Reign? Per your 1 Corthians 15:50-56 claims?

  11. #11
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    [QUOTE=Jesuslovesus;3417926]Why does your postion on 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 make no mention of Hosea 13:14? QUOTE]
    Hosea 13:14 is a reference to Eternity. In the context of the Lord's condemnation of Ephraim.

    When do you believe Hosea Chapts 13-14 have been fullfiled? Quote.

    Hosea 13 and Hosea 14:1-3 were fulfilled by the conquest and deportation of the House of Israel by Assyria.
    Hosea 14:4-8 awaits the time soon after the Lord's Day of wrath clears all the holy Land and they, now all the Christian peoples can live there. In the very place that they were called 'not My People', they will be called the sons of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26


    IF you believe they still wait for future fullfiment can you explain how they are fullfilled AFTER the Millenial Reign? Per your 1 Corthians 15:50-56 claims? Quote.
    The faithful Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language, the real Israelites of God: Galatians 6:16, are just normal people, who will live in all of the holy Land being the people God always wanted in His Land, His witnesses and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8
    There is no transformed bodies or immortality until after the Millennium.
    Teachings like 2 Corinthians 5:6-10 all refer to what happens after the GWT Judgement. Proved by verse 10 where the only Judgement of individuals occurs.
    Do not confuse this Judgement at the end of the Millennium, with the Judgement of the nations, Matthew 25:31-33 that Jesus will do at His Return.

  12. #12

    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    --2 Corinthians 5:10 is about "the Church which is His body" [there is neither Jew nor Gentile "IN CHRIST," that is, in our standing before God IN Christ (this pertains to "the Church which is His body")]
    [...caught UP before: the 7-yr trib / Daniel's 70th Wk/-START of the DOTL time period... caught UP before THAT commences; this "judgment seat / bema of Christ" occurs at "the Day of Christ" (up there "WITH [G4862] Him"... we "return" with Him as well [for the wedding feast/supper on the earth, i.e. the MK]); this "bema" / rewards (bema seat of Christ) pertains solely to the Church which is His body (not to all other believers/saints of all other time periods)]

    --the 70th Week of Daniel's primary focus is Israel [yes the whole world is affected]; START of the DOTL time period [DOTL continues into the entire MK]

    --Matthew 25:31-34 is about the judgment of "the nations [plural]" [before the MK commences, at Christ's Second Coming to the earth]

    --Revelation 20:11-15 is about the judgment of "the dead" [after the MK]


    Don't conflate these; they are distinct.

  13. #13
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    [QUOTE=Keraz;3417931]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Why does your postion on 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 make no mention of Hosea 13:14? QUOTE]
    Hosea 13:14 is a reference to Eternity. In the context of the Lord's condemnation of Ephraim.

    When do you believe Hosea Chapts 13-14 have been fullfiled? Quote.

    Hosea 13 and Hosea 14:1-3 were fulfilled by the conquest and deportation of the House of Israel by Assyria.
    Hosea 14:4-8 awaits the time soon after the Lord's Day of wrath clears all the holy Land and they, now all the Christian peoples can live there. In the very place that they were called 'not My People', they will be called the sons of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26


    IF you believe they still wait for future fullfiment can you explain how they are fullfilled AFTER the Millenial Reign? Per your 1 Corthians 15:50-56 claims? Quote.
    The faithful Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language, the real Israelites of God: Galatians 6:16, are just normal people, who will live in all of the holy Land being the people God always wanted in His Land, His witnesses and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8
    There is no transformed bodies or immortality until after the Millennium.
    Teachings like 2 Corinthians 5:6-10 all refer to what happens after the GWT Judgement. Proved by verse 10 where the only Judgement of individuals occurs.
    Do not confuse this Judgement at the end of the Millennium, with the Judgement of the nations, Matthew 25:31-33 that Jesus will do at His Return.
    Would you agree that Paul quoted Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14 in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56?

    Do you also believe Isaiah 25:6-8 speaks of a time After the Millenium when it says.

    And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

    7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

    8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.


    Do you believe the removal of the Rebuke of His people being taken away from all the Earth waits for After the Millenium?

    Just to be clear it is your belief that Death being swallowed up in victory happens 1k Years After Jesus comes to Earth?

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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    [QUOTE=Jesuslovesus;3417941]
    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post

    Would you agree that Paul quoted Isaiah 25:8 and Hosea 13:14 in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56?

    Do you also believe Isaiah 25:6-8 speaks of a time After the Millenium when it says.

    And in this mountain shall the Lord of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

    7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

    8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.


    Do you believe the removal of the Rebuke of His people being taken away from all the Earth waits for After the Millenium?

    Just to be clear it is your belief that Death being swallowed up in victory happens 1k Years After Jesus comes to Earth?
    Isaiah 25:6-8 is generally about the Millennium period, but in verse 8, it reiterates the Promise of Eternal life for those whose names are in the Book of Life. After the Millennium.
    Revelation 21:1-7 is plain. Only after the Millennium, is Death to be no more and God will wipe away the tears of those who are victorious in Jesus.

    John 5:27-29 also confirms that the time will come when ALL the dead will rise to the Judgement and we know from Revelation 20:11-13, that happens after the Millennium.

  15. #15
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    Re: GWTJ - Judgement of the Dead or the Living?

    At the GWT all are resurrected and judged both the believer and ungodly.

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