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Thread: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

  1. #76
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    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Good points. But when you do believe it starts "day of salvation" for the unbeliever? Remember that until one comes to faith, Christ' sacrifice on the cross has no meaning to them? You and I agree that the Day of salvation came after the crucifixion and ascension. However, the day the sinner accepts Jesus Christ' salvation marks his own day of salvation per Paul's exhortation in 2 Cor 6:2 "behold now is the acceptable time, behold now is the day of salvation.

    Since unbelievers don't repent at the time, so NOW, is to every individual, the day he makes that ultimate decision, wouldn't you agree?
    THe Cross marked the day of salvation for all men universally.

    As you say, each man individually, has their own day of salvation.

    As Jesus Himself declared; prior to the cross, in this passages; individually specific to 1 repentant sinner man we all know.

    John 19:9 And Jesus said unto Zacchaeus, This day is salvation come to this house

  2. #77

    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Thank you always for agreeing with what I've been promoting from the start.
    I don't know where you stand on Theresa May's view of things, but I do agree with a lot of things that you recommend "from the start!"

  3. #78
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    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Here I can be a little more definitive in what I do believe, since my eschatology has largely been established for a long time. I'm a futurist, and although I believe, like George E. Ladd, that the future is already here in the presence of Jesus, the actual future remains future.
    George Eldon Ladd did probably not consider the two sections (first night and second light day) of the day of salvation, right? Anyway, this should not present a problem, because the night is nevertheless different from the light day. Thus, the day of salvation has both: the presence and the future. But that does neither mean that the future is already here nor does it mean that the future would be experienced in the presence. No one would think so in daily life, and no Bible reader need to think so in order to understand the day of salvation or anything else. The presence remains presence and the future remains future. It is indeed very easy: first part of Isa49:8 has been fulfilled already (and Paul just confirmed it), second part is still outstanding (because it's still future).

    No need to look for anything future to be experienced in presence. This kind of thinking is really strange to me - and - will not work, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Paul in 2 Cor 6 is talking about our current experience of Christ, and not about eschatological realities.
    The day of salvation is an eschatological reality.

  4. #79
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    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know where you stand on Theresa May's view of things, but I do agree with a lot of things that you recommend "from the start!"
    Poor Theresa May is under tremendous pressure, trying but failing, again and again, to get the UK a fair deal in the ongoing Brexit negotiations.

  5. #80
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    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    THe Cross marked the day of salvation for all men universally.

    As you say, each man individually, has their own day of salvation.

    As Jesus Himself declared; prior to the cross, in this passages; individually specific to 1 repentant sinner man we all know.

    John 19:9 And Jesus said unto Zacchaeus, This day is salvation come to this house
    John 19:9 is a misquote, but I get the drift. Thanks, David

  6. #81
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    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    THe Cross marked the day of salvation for all men universally.

    As you say, each man individually, has their own day of salvation.

    As Jesus Himself declared; prior to the cross, in this passages; individually specific to 1 repentant sinner man we all know.

    John 19:9 And Jesus said unto Zacchaeus, This day is salvation come to this house
    You mean Luke 19:9. The complete verse is: "And Jesus said to him, Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham." Consider the reason: he was a son of Abraham. At that time Israel was extraordinary blessed due to the presence of Jesus. Furthermore, even though Jesus said "Today salvation has come to this house" he did not say to Zacchaeus: this is the day of salvation or this is your day of salvation or this is a day of salvation. Nothing of the sort. Only Paul said "Now is the day of salvation". This, however, was said not before but after the cross, the ascension and the exaltation of our Lord Jesus.

    The day when Jesus came into the house of Zacchaeus was not the day of salvation mentioned by Isaiah and Paul. The day of salvation for all men universally began later. As already explained this time started with the ascension and exaltation of the Lord Jesus. It will last until end of time.

  7. #82

    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Poor Theresa May is under tremendous pressure, trying but failing, again and again, to get the UK a fair deal in the ongoing Brexit negotiations.
    Yea, so I've noticed. I have relatives over there not very happy with Theresa. She reminds me of the old guard over here, the political establishment. They're trying to hold things together, but strong winds are blowing. The times they are a-changin'.

    In the end, she will likely have to make an agreement with the EU, notwithstanding the fury vs. immigration. If she can maintain control over your own country's security I'm sure lots of more flexible agreements can be made with the EU. But you're not going to have a "capital of Europe" telling the British what to do.

  8. #83

    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by bibelleser View Post
    George Eldon Ladd did probably not consider the two sections (first night and second light day) of the day of salvation, right? Anyway, this should not present a problem, because the night is nevertheless different from the light day. Thus, the day of salvation has both: the presence and the future. But that does neither mean that the future is already here nor does it mean that the future would be experienced in the presence. No one would think so in daily life, and no Bible reader need to think so in order to understand the day of salvation or anything else. The presence remains presence and the future remains future. It is indeed very easy: first part of Isa49:8 has been fulfilled already (and Paul just confirmed it), second part is still outstanding (because it's still future).

    No need to look for anything future to be experienced in presence. This kind of thinking is really strange to me - and - will not work, anyway.



    The day of salvation is an eschatological reality.
    No, I agree you can't have the future now, and confuse Now with the Future. These are plainly incompatibilities.

    So that's not what Ladd meant, obviously, and I don't think he failed to see the problem. What he was saying, in my thinking, is that what was viewed by the Jews as strictly future had a premature fulfillment in Christ. He became a kind of immediate salvation that precedes the final salvation.

    Let me put it like this. The Jews were expecting a Messiah to come and bring about a final national salvation for Israel, delivering them from their enemies for all time, and establishing eternal righteousness in the land. But well before this could be fulfilled Jesus came to bring a kind of salvation that is linked to that final, eschatological salvation. You must have Jesus's righteousness to participate in that final state of righteousness in the world.

    And I don't think Jesus failed to see his linkage with the Future either. He saw himself as King of the future Kingdom, and as the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven in Dan 7. His first coming was clearly his statement about his second coming.

    When Martha looked forward to the resurrection on the last day Jesus notified her that he was already the source of that resurrection--in the present! See John 11. And he said that those who accept him now already have eternal life--it's not just some eschatological reality.

    John 6.40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
    43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

  9. #84
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    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, I agree you can't have the future now, and confuse Now with the Future. These are plainly incompatibilities.

    But you said that Jesus "brought truths concerning the future Kingdom home in the present, to be presently experienced by those who met him". Furthermore: "The future would be experienced in the present". In my opinion both statements are confusion of Now with the Future (or vice versa). It doesn't work. These are indeed plainly incompatibilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So that's not what Ladd meant, obviously, and I don't think he failed to see the problem. What he was saying, in my thinking, is that what was viewed by the Jews as strictly future had a premature fulfillment in Christ. He became a kind of immediate salvation that precedes the final salvation.
    However, this is not what the Bible says. The NT does not speak about any premature fulfillment, only fulfillment in Christ. The sufferings of Christ and his glories thereafter can by no means be considered premature. In this regard there is no premature fulfillment. There is only real fulfillment step by step in accordance with God's ingenious plan of salvation. As far as the eschatological day of salvation is concerned - it is already present. Same is with the eschatological day of the Lord: it's night (= time of the heathen, see Ezk30:3) is already present.

    The day of the Lord or the last day or the Jom Jeschua, the day of salvation, is the long lasting time in which the Son of Man is glorified. It is HIS day. Nothing else.

    This time started with what Dan 7 predicted: the ascension of the Son of Man with the clouds of heaven. He went to heaven, came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to the Son of Man was given dominion and glory. This is fulfilled already. Therefore, the great eschatological "Day" (it's first section, the night) is already present. This is what Paul confirmed: Now is the day of salvation (2Cor6:2/Rom13:12). Peter saw it the same way. He was (in the present night) waiting for the dawn of the light day, the second part of the full day (2Pet1:19).

    End time is called "day", because it is a full day, first its night and second, its daytime, however, not dominated by the sunlight but by the Son of Man, the light of the world. I doubt that Ladd did consider that in his theological views.

  10. #85

    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Folks,

    The week of Jesus Christ has the beginning and the end. That is how come He is the Beginning and the End.

    Any person or thing in/of the order of Melchizedek (God the Son) has no beginning or ending. Such a person or thing is of the "day", which is the eternal age/era/realm of God the Son

    There is no first and last day of the Lord either in the sense of counting a first calendar day to a last calendar day.

    The day of the Lord is eternal; it arises "NOW" in the name of God the Son. Persons and things that are in/of the name are "NOW" either in the hour, or day, or week, or month or year.

    Let us follow the divine pattern in order to understand and know all things in the fulness of God.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

  11. #86

    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    I'm not seeing the definite article ["the"] in 2Cor6:2 [other than what translators have supplied in brackets, but not in the Greek], and it doesn't seem to be in the Hebrew text of Isa49:8 either -

    http://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/6-2.htm


    And have you considered the difference between His first ascension ["active ascension"] ON His Resurrection day / ON Firstfruit [Lev23:10-12], and that of His ascension 40 days later [before Pentecost] in the sight of the disciples? [Jn20:17, Jn16:16 [etc (vv.19-23, [Acts 13:33-34], etc)] versus Lk24:33-39 +40d-to-Acts 1's later visible ascension]



    [note: keeping in mind that 2Pet3:10 says "the day of the Lord WILL COME [future]" (as it hadn't yet "come" - http://biblehub.com/text/2_peter/3-10.htm )... and that Paul also was telling the Thessalonians not to believe anyone who said "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (2Th2) for "it will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure [our Rapture to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR] FIRST," and that man of sin be revealed (Seal 1, initial "birth PANG [singular]" 1Th5:2-3, kicking off the 7-yr tribulation [Dan9:27a; 2Thess2:9a "whose coming [advent/presence/arrival]" (man of sin)]) ]

  12. #87
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    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious View Post
    Folks,

    The week of Jesus Christ has the beginning and the end. That is how come He is the Beginning and the End.

    Any person or thing in/of the order of Melchizedek (God the Son) has no beginning or ending. Such a person or thing is of the "day", which is the eternal age/era/realm of God the Son

    There is no first and last day of the Lord either in the sense of counting a first calendar day to a last calendar day.

    The day of the Lord is eternal; it arises "NOW" in the name of God the Son. Persons and things that are in/of the name are "NOW" either in the hour, or day, or week, or month or year.

    Let us follow the divine pattern in order to understand and know all things in the fulness of God.
    A day always means "time". It is always a period of time with a specific duration. Eternity comes after the end of time, therefore, after the last day. The day of the Lord is not eternal. If it would be eternal it couldn't be named "day". Let us follow God's own definition of the word "day" (Gen 1:5). Otherwise we mess up everything.

  13. #88

    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    ...oh, and I'd meant to add a question from 2Pet3:18... what do you believe Peter meant by saying,

    "both now and to the day of [the] aiōnos [singular]" (as though they are two distinct times)?

    http://biblehub.com/text/2_peter/3-18.htm

  14. #89
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    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yea, so I've noticed. I have relatives over there not very happy with Theresa. She reminds me of the old guard over here, the political establishment. They're trying to hold things together, but strong winds are blowing. The times they are a-changin'.

    In the end, she will likely have to make an agreement with the EU, notwithstanding the fury vs. immigration. If she can maintain control over your own country's security I'm sure lots of more flexible agreements can be made with the EU. But you're not going to have a "capital of Europe" telling the British what to do.
    I suppose you've heard the news? Some sort of breakthrough agreement has been reached regarding the sticking points:

    1. Status of EU citizens already living in the UK. Their right to live and work here will be protected. This will be reciprocated across the EU. The rights of British nationals will be protected also.
    2. The amount of the divorce bill the UK will pay the EU, now tentatively between Euro 35-40 billon.
    3. And finally, it has been agreed that no hard-border will be erected between Northern Ireland (Belfast) and the Republic of Ireland (Dublin).

    This agreement now paves the way for constructive trade negotiations between the EU and the UK to commence in earnest. Theresa May can breathe easy for now.

  15. #90
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    Re: The day of salvation - when did it start and when will it be finished?

    Actually Theresa May is relevant to this discussion because she made a deal today which yet only comes into force in the future if one accepts the full deal between now and the deadline.

    Jesus made the Day of Salvation, on a certain day - the Day He died. Yet it only comes into force in the future (when He returns), if you accept Him before the deadline.

    Not exactly the same but I think clarifies my understanding of the Day of Salvation. It is a Day which happened 2000 years ago. That Day is finished or as Jesus said "It is finished".
    However now is the favourable time, the time to receive all that Day offers. For then that Day becomes applicable to you now. This is how I see Jesus fulfilling Isaiah 49 and Paul making it relevant for everyone through time as long as it is Day.

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