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Thread: Which sins are not unto death?

  1. #31
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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdy View Post
    Thanks for asking Trivalee. The sin of unbelief is unto eternal death. We read about it in places like: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." We see this again: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." In the verse 1 John 5:16 that you mention, we are let in on the fact that sins can be forgiven. How wonderful that is and thanks to Jesus and God for his great love. But the one sin that is not forgiven is being an unconverted person. An uncoverted person does not believe in Jesus whom God sent as one who came to save. In fact, in the case of many of the Pharisees in the Bible, Jesus was standing right in front of them and they said he had a devil. They simply did not believe in who he said he was. That was called the sin of blasphemy, which is not some special sort of act or endeavor that a person does and can never be forgiven. Rather, it is continuing in the state of not recognizing Jesus for who he is (the savior) and what he came to do (to save). It goes without saying that if a person continues to reject Jesus as who he is and that he can save, then there is no salvation for them. On the other hand, if any person who used to reject Jesus becomes converted by God's action of saving them and they suddenly come to realize Jesus is the savior and that he can save them, then they can be forgiven. The Pharisees in question committed the sin of unbelief, which is called blasphemy in Luke 12:10. Another way to describe the sin is that they were unconverted. Suppose Jesus were standing in front of a Pharisee and that Pharisee denied who Jesus claimed to be: "he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God." But suppose that same Pharisee later had a conversion experience and came to believe in Christ Jesus: "Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:" Put yet still another way, the sin which is unto death (meaning eternal damnation) is that of not being converted to Christ. Some verses refer to this as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It is called blasphemy against the Holy Spirit because the gospel can only be received by the Holy Spirit. Indeed, the words which Jesus has are spirit and life. If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then they cannot receive the gospel. They are condemned already and this unbelief is the sin unto eternal death.
    Your post is insightful and interesting. Since your view is that the "death" merely eternal, what do you say to those who hold that John was referring to the Mosaic law where some sins are subject to physical death and others are not?

    Just one point of disagreement; you said "If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then they cannot receive the gospel", this is incorrect. Did the disciples receive the Holy Ghost before the word or was it the other way round? Obviously, you receive the word and believe first, then the Holy Spirit indwells the person as a seal of their new life in Christ. In Acts 10, Cornelius did not even receive the Gospel but was devout and he and his household received the Holy Ghost when Peter visited him.

  2. #32
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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your post is insightful and interesting. Since your view is that the "death" merely eternal, what do you say to those who hold that John was referring to the Mosaic law where some sins are subject to physical death and others are not?

    Just one point of disagreement; you said "If a person does not have the Holy Spirit, then they cannot receive the gospel", this is incorrect. Did the disciples receive the Holy Ghost before the word or was it the other way round? Obviously, you receive the word and believe first, then the Holy Spirit indwells the person as a seal of their new life in Christ. In Acts 10, Cornelius did not even receive the Gospel but was devout and he and his household received the Holy Ghost when Peter visited him.

    Thanks Trivalee for your consideration. My response to those who see this as a Mosaic law thing is that the Bible is usually talking about spiritual life and spiritual death when it uses those terms. Do you think that a chapter in 1 John devoted to eternal life and being born of God is going to suddenly shift to the Mosaic Law. In that chapter we read, "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world".

    Concerning the Holy Spirit enabling a person to believe on Christ unto salvation, we disagree about timing. I believe that when a person receives the gospel it is because God moves on that person's heart by the Holy Spirit to believe. Therefore, it is an act of God to have a person believe and not the person's own works. Haven't you read how those who are born of God have the mind of Christ. This is because they have the Holy Spirit. In fact, a lot of things happen at the same time at salvation. At the same time that a person is enabled by God to believe the gospel unto salvation, they are washed free of their sins, for example. In the case of Cornelius that you mention, Peter shares about Jesus (the gospel) and, not after but while, he shared the word about Jesus for the first time to them the Holy Ghost fell on the many there: "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

  3. #33
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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdy View Post
    Thanks Trivalee for your consideration. My response to those who see this as a Mosaic law thing is that the Bible is usually talking about spiritual life and spiritual death when it uses those terms. Do you think that a chapter in 1 John devoted to eternal life and being born of God is going to suddenly shift to the Mosaic Law. In that chapter we read, "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world".

    Concerning the Holy Spirit enabling a person to believe on Christ unto salvation, we disagree about timing. I believe that when a person receives the gospel it is because God moves on that person's heart by the Holy Spirit to believe. Therefore, it is an act of God to have a person believe and not the person's own works. Haven't you read how those who are born of God have the mind of Christ. This is because they have the Holy Spirit. In fact, a lot of things happen at the same time at salvation. At the same time that a person is enabled by God to believe the gospel unto salvation, they are washed free of their sins, for example. In the case of Cornelius that you mention, Peter shares about Jesus (the gospel) and, not after but while, he shared the word about Jesus for the first time to them the Holy Ghost fell on the many there: "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."
    I'm with you, totally agree.

  4. #34
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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdy View Post
    Thanks Trivalee for your consideration. My response to those who see this as a Mosaic law thing is that the Bible is usually talking about spiritual life and spiritual death when it uses those terms. Do you think that a chapter in 1 John devoted to eternal life and being born of God is going to suddenly shift to the Mosaic Law. In that chapter we read, "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world".

    Concerning the Holy Spirit enabling a person to believe on Christ unto salvation, we disagree about timing. I believe that when a person receives the gospel it is because God moves on that person's heart by the Holy Spirit to believe. Therefore, it is an act of God to have a person believe and not the person's own works. Haven't you read how those who are born of God have the mind of Christ. This is because they have the Holy Spirit. In fact, a lot of things happen at the same time at salvation. At the same time that a person is enabled by God to believe the gospel unto salvation, they are washed free of their sins, for example. In the case of Cornelius that you mention, Peter shares about Jesus (the gospel) and, not after but while, he shared the word about Jesus for the first time to them the Holy Ghost fell on the many there: "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."
    So then would it be safe to say that this individual upon whom the Spirit prompted to come to salvation could be called "CALLED"? Matt 22:14

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdy View Post
    Thanks Trivalee for your consideration. My response to those who see this as a Mosaic law thing is that the Bible is usually talking about spiritual life and spiritual death when it uses those terms. Do you think that a chapter in 1 John devoted to eternal life and being born of God is going to suddenly shift to the Mosaic Law. In that chapter we read, "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world".

    Concerning the Holy Spirit enabling a person to believe on Christ unto salvation, we disagree about timing. I believe that when a person receives the gospel it is because God moves on that person's heart by the Holy Spirit to believe. Therefore, it is an act of God to have a person believe and not the person's own works. Haven't you read how those who are born of God have the mind of Christ. This is because they have the Holy Spirit. In fact, a lot of things happen at the same time at salvation. At the same time that a person is enabled by God to believe the gospel unto salvation, they are washed free of their sins, for example. In the case of Cornelius that you mention, Peter shares about Jesus (the gospel) and, not after but while, he shared the word about Jesus for the first time to them the Holy Ghost fell on the many there: "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."
    I wonder if people have the same understanding as I about the Holy Spirit. We would all agree (I assume) that when one believes, he received the Spirit within him, and he then has the Spirit of God in Him. But I believe being FILLED "with" the Spirit is different than having the Spirit already within us. The Disciples "Believed on the name of Jesus" before they were "filled with the Spirit." So if then the Spirit leads us to salvation, then comes into us AT Salvation, how did they FIRST receive the Spirit at Pentecost?

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    So then would it be safe to say that this individual upon whom the Spirit prompted to come to salvation could be called "CALLED"? Matt 22:14
    Your question here borders on a Thread I started earlier this year, titled "Can we lose our salvation". The Bible is replete with accounts of many who were CALLED (John 6:66;1 Tim 1:20; 2 Tim 1:15), but ultimately turned their back to the Gospel. In the OP where we discussed whether we can lose our salvation some asserted we can't, claiming that those who turned their back to Christ NEVER received salvation to start with. But I think different.

    So to answer your question I would say, yes. The individual who receives the Holy Spirit is called into the family and fellowship of Christ, but can he remain until the end?

  7. #37
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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I wonder if people have the same understanding as I about the Holy Spirit. We would all agree (I assume) that when one believes, he received the Spirit within him, and he then has the Spirit of God in Him. But I believe being FILLED "with" the Spirit is different than having the Spirit already within us. The Disciples "Believed on the name of Jesus" before they were "filled with the Spirit." So if then the Spirit leads us to salvation, then comes into us AT Salvation, how did they FIRST receive the Spirit at Pentecost?
    You made a clear unambiguous case and then, seem to argue against it.

    The simple answer is that the Spirit of Christ is different from the Holy Spirit which came later, at Pentecost.

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You made a clear unambiguous case and then, seem to argue against it.

    The simple answer is that the Spirit of Christ is different from the Holy Spirit which came later, at Pentecost.
    LOL. yea... Now that I read what I wrote, I sure could have worded it better. I guess one way to word what I mean is to say that I have the Holy Spirit within me (by which I am sealed, and which you call the "Spirit of Christ"), however there are times when I am "filled" by that Same Spirit and I "speak in tongues" or receive an amazing revelation or Word from the Lord. Then when I teach or preach it goes out upon them, and I am emptied. But I still have the Spirit within me.

    Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. So then I would equate "being filled by the Spirit" like "the Spirit gave me utterance".

    John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) I would say this is a reference to receiving the Spirit once a person believes. (However for the disciples this did not happen until Pentecost.)

    Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? This is receiving the Spirit upon having Faith in Jesus.

    Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. This speaks of Something more than just having the Holy Spirit within us at the time of Believing.

    I do not believe the two are different Spirits. I believe they are ONE. The Same Spirit comes IN at Salvation. But is not fully ACTIVE until you are filled. So then the Power of His Spirit is made manifest in that you accept the Filling.

    But we have gone off course of the OP...

  9. #39

    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1 John 5:16[FONT="]If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. [/FONT]17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    Which sin(s) is not unto death?


    I think there are three parts in this passage that is necessary to understand your question.

    First, is the word brother. He is talking about a fellow believer, who commits a sin that is not unto death. John includes this: all unrighteousness is categorized as being not sins unto death. Remember that. At this point if we knew what "unrighteousness" is, we would have our understanding.

    Next, notice the wording of verse 16. He (the one offering up a prayer) shall be given life... you should take note that it is the one praying for his sin stricken brother, that is given life. Life from God the Father. It is not the sinner in question that is given life, but the praying brother. Continuing on we see this confirmed by the words "for THEM, [plural, not the singular HIM] that sin NOT unto death. He goes onto to say "don't pray for those that DO sin unto death". He then follows with: "all unrighteousness is sin...". He didn't say, "all sin is unrighteousness", but vice versa. Continuing on, he says that this is what constitutes, NOT being a sin unto death. We can summarize John's thoughts here. All unrighteousness constitutes sins not unto death. And we all know the scripture that says that the wages of sin IS DEATH. All sins result in death. Dearth as in separation from God. Going further we can then say that some unrighteousness does not lead to death, but to LIFE! John says to pray for those that DO NOT sin unto death. We can go even further and say this: "(John says to) pray for the unrighteous". But not necessarily pray for sinners, in general. Life will be given to HIM [to give to the one] who sins (unrighteously) sins that are NOT unto death. You should now be seeing, u nderstanding, John's use of the word unrighteous. It is those who are consciously aware of their offence before God. They exhibit , in some fashion, sorrow for their sin. For their unrighteousness. Pray for those that are in need of, desire, forgiveness from God, and he will give to you, THE ONE PRAYING FOR HIS BROTHER, words of forgiveness, or maybe it's kindness, or maybe it is to give the fallen brother assurance of God's forgiveness is available. Sometimes we fail to find God's forgiveness because we sinned in some, unforgivable manner, against God. We can be bearers of the forgiveness of God, TO THOSE WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR SIN(S).

    In conclusion, John is saying not to bother yourselves with praying for those who do not see the unrighteousness of their sin. Do not offer them forgiveness [errantly]. They do not acknowledge their sin, and we should not be found condoning their sinful actions... because they do not (at that time) see their actions as being sinful. But they might, at some future time, if we don't condone them for their actions.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I wonder if people have the same understanding as I about the Holy Spirit. We would all agree (I assume) that when one believes, he received the Spirit within him, and he then has the Spirit of God in Him. But I believe being FILLED "with" the Spirit is different than having the Spirit already within us. The Disciples "Believed on the name of Jesus" before they were "filled with the Spirit." So if then the Spirit leads us to salvation, then comes into us AT Salvation, how did they FIRST receive the Spirit at Pentecost?
    I continue to ponder the issues you raised here. As you pointed out, many including the disciples were saved before they received the Holy Ghost at Pentecost. But there some who say the Holy Spirit is received at the same time one comes to faith. It's a bit confusing, to be honest.

    But what is the difference between Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit?

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    I think there are three parts in this passage that is necessary to understand your question.

    First, is the word brother. He is talking about a fellow believer, who commits a sin that is not unto death. John includes this: all unrighteousness is categorized as being not sins unto death. Remember that. At this point if we knew what "unrighteousness" is, we would have our understanding.

    Next, notice the wording of verse 16. He (the one offering up a prayer) shall be given life... you should take note that it is the one praying for his sin stricken brother, that is given life. Life from God the Father. It is not the sinner in question that is given life, but the praying brother. Continuing on we see this confirmed by the words "for THEM, [plural, not the singular HIM] that sin NOT unto death. He goes onto to say "don't pray for those that DO sin unto death". He then follows with: "all unrighteousness is sin...". He didn't say, "all sin is unrighteousness", but vice versa. Continuing on, he says that this is what constitutes, NOT being a sin unto death. We can summarize John's thoughts here. All unrighteousness constitutes sins not unto death. And we all know the scripture that says that the wages of sin IS DEATH. All sins result in death. Dearth as in separation from God. Going further we can then say that some unrighteousness does not lead to death, but to LIFE! John says to pray for those that DO NOT sin unto death. We can go even further and say this: "(John says to) pray for the unrighteous". But not necessarily pray for sinners, in general. Life will be given to HIM [to give to the one] who sins (unrighteously) sins that are NOT unto death. You should now be seeing, u nderstanding, John's use of the word unrighteous. It is those who are consciously aware of their offence before God. They exhibit , in some fashion, sorrow for their sin. For their unrighteousness. Pray for those that are in need of, desire, forgiveness from God, and he will give to you, THE ONE PRAYING FOR HIS BROTHER, words of forgiveness, or maybe it's kindness, or maybe it is to give the fallen brother assurance of God's forgiveness is available. Sometimes we fail to find God's forgiveness because we sinned in some, unforgivable manner, against God. We can be bearers of the forgiveness of God, TO THOSE WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR SIN(S).

    In conclusion, John is saying not to bother yourselves with praying for those who do not see the unrighteousness of their sin. Do not offer them forgiveness [errantly]. They do not acknowledge their sin, and we should not be found condoning their sinful actions... because they do not (at that time) see their actions as being sinful. But they might, at some future time, if we don't condone them for their actions.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB
    I like the way you broke it down. Thank you.

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