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Thread: Which sins are not unto death?

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    Which sins are not unto death?

    1 John 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    Which sin(s) is not unto death?



  2. #2

    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1 John 5:16If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    Which sin(s) is not unto death?

    Good question. I memorized 1 John back in the early 70s, and I initially thought this referred to eternal death. But now that I've had decades of providing context for John's statements I have to refer back to the Law of Moses, where we are shown that some sins were forgiveable, exempting a death sentence, whereas other sins had to be judged with death--regardless of whether the person was forgiven.

    Take, for example, Moses. Clearly he was forgiven by God for hitting the rock twice. He was supposed to speak to the rock the second time, but lost his temper. God judged him with death, and yet not out of either vengeance or eternal wrath. God simply saw it necessary to demonstrate His justice in the incident in the view of all Israel.

    The ramifications of this particular interpretation are tremendous, in view of current Faith Teaching. We are told by these "Faith" proponents that everything we ask for should receive a positive answer. But here, if my interpretation is correct, not everything we ask for will get a positive result.

    But I leave the interpretation open for question...

  3. #3

    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1 John 5:16[FONT="]If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. [/FONT]17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    Which sin(s) is not unto death?


    I only know of one sin that won't be forgiven...that one maybe is the one unto death?
    Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

  4. #4

    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I only know of one sin that won't be forgiven...that one maybe is the one unto death?
    Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    So the question here is, Does this kind of prayer have to do with eternal forgiveness or simply with avoiding death for a variety of sins?

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I only know of one sin that won't be forgiven...that one maybe is the one unto death?
    Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    A blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (presumably the most grievous of transgressions) is definitely unto death. But we are exploring those that are not unto death.

  6. #6

    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    A blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (presumably the most grievous of transgressions) is definitely unto death. But we are exploring those that are not unto death.
    Under the Law you might accidentally kill someone. Your negligence was a sin, but not punishable by death. Abuse of slaves was a sin, but not punishable by death. Harming someone by breaking his leg was a sin, but punishable by having your own leg broken.

    I would suggest in our own era that petty acts of thievery, and a variety of things, from sexual improprieties to acts of rage, can be less than deserving of the death penalty. It really depends on the standards developed in the society and on God's judgment itself.

    We can't say that every sin for which there is a death penalty results in damnation. Obviously, the thief on the cross next to Jesus died for his transgressions, and yet went to paradise with Jesus.

    I really don't think this is saying, "Don't pray for someone who is damned, someone who has committed the unpardonable sin." If so, we would have to know who is saved and who is damned in advance.

    My wife was bothered about this when I told her. She indicated, "Are we to know everybody who is damned before they die? Are we to avoid praying for those who we think are damned?"

    I think she has a point. Sometimes we know who has committed the unpardonable sin. Sometimes we know in advance of their death who will be damned. Jesus knew. So can we, at times.

    But many times it isn't our place to declare who will be damned and who will not be damned. People are making decisions, and we should let them make their own decisions.

    So I think this is talking about discriminating between measures of judgment. Some judgments from God cannot be thwarted, and we shouldn't pray for them. It has nothing to do with who is saved or not.

    We sometimes need to know, when we're praying, the circumstances that lead to certain sicknesses and terminal illnesses. If we seem pretty convinced that the healing is not going to take place we need to leave these people in the care of God. Our prayers will not change that.

    Consider, for example, David praying for the child he had with Bathsheba, in an adulterous situation. David prayed, and the child died anyway. And yet the child would go to heaven to be with David. This is only one of many examples.

    The thief on the cross had to pay for his sins, despite his conversion. Moses could not overturn the verdict on his life, after expressing rage in the sight of all Israel. He had to die in the sight of all Israel, to show them the gravity of a leader rebelling against God's guidance. Etc. etc.

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Good question. I memorized 1 John back in the early 70s, and I initially thought this referred to eternal death. But now that I've had decades of providing context for John's statements I have to refer back to the Law of Moses, where we are shown that some sins were forgiveable, exempting a death sentence, whereas other sins had to be judged with death--regardless of whether the person was forgiven.

    Take, for example, Moses. Clearly he was forgiven by God for hitting the rock twice. He was supposed to speak to the rock the second time, but lost his temper. God judged him with death, and yet not out of either vengeance or eternal wrath. God simply saw it necessary to demonstrate His justice in the incident in the view of all Israel.

    The ramifications of this particular interpretation are tremendous, in view of current Faith Teaching. We are told by these "Faith" proponents that everything we ask for should receive a positive answer. But here, if my interpretation is correct, not everything we ask for will get a positive result.

    But I leave the interpretation open for question...
    I've been thinking, isn't there a possibility that 1 John 5:16 is not exclusively about physical death?

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context - 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Under the Law you might accidentally kill someone. Your negligence was a sin, but not punishable by death. Abuse of slaves was a sin, but not punishable by death. Harming someone by breaking his leg was a sin, but punishable by having your own leg broken.

    I would suggest in our own era that petty acts of thievery, and a variety of things, from sexual improprieties to acts of rage, can be less than deserving of the death penalty. It really depends on the standards developed in the society and on God's judgment itself.

    We can't say that every sin for which there is a death penalty results in damnation. Obviously, the thief on the cross next to Jesus died for his transgressions, and yet went to paradise with Jesus.

    I really don't think this is saying, "Don't pray for someone who is damned, someone who has committed the unpardonable sin." If so, we would have to know who is saved and who is damned in advance.

    My wife was bothered about this when I told her. She indicated, "Are we to know everybody who is damned before they die? Are we to avoid praying for those who we think are damned?"

    I think she has a point. Sometimes we know who has committed the unpardonable sin. Sometimes we know in advance of their death who will be damned. Jesus knew. So can we, at times.

    But many times it isn't our place to declare who will be damned and who will not be damned. People are making decisions, and we should let them make their own decisions.

    So I think this is talking about discriminating between measures of judgment. Some judgments from God cannot be thwarted, and we shouldn't pray for them. It has nothing to do with who is saved or not.

    We sometimes need to know, when we're praying, the circumstances that lead to certain sicknesses and terminal illnesses. If we seem pretty convinced that the healing is not going to take place we need to leave these people in the care of God. Our prayers will not change that.

    Consider, for example, David praying for the child he had with Bathsheba, in an adulterous situation. David prayed, and the child died anyway. And yet the child would go to heaven to be with David. This is only one of many examples.

    The thief on the cross had to pay for his sins, despite his conversion. Moses could not overturn the verdict on his life, after expressing rage in the sight of all Israel. He had to die in the sight of all Israel, to show them the gravity of a leader rebelling against God's guidance. Etc. etc.
    Your post has reminded me of what I heard from a Pastor some years ago. It borders on some of the examples you cited here. The pastor was of the opinion that the reason some Christians don't get results from prayers is their inability to listen or ask God to reveal the reason for the infirmity or problem they are praying for. He was of the opinion that if we develop the art of asking God what he thinks about a problem first, before diving headlong into prayers for a solution, the outcome will surprise many.

    Just like you mentioned David's prayer for his son who died regardless, the pastor said that if we ask God or really listen to him while praying, sometimes God may tell us not to bother with a case. For example, if God decides to call a faithful believer home and that believer becomes ill, the congression may fast and pray earnestly for his recovery. But if they heard from God, their prayer pattern would change from asking for healing to that of praise and thanksgiving.

    At the same time, when the iniquity of a wicked man is full and their soul is demanded, praying for such a person without their repentance and asking for forgiveness will be a wasted prayer.

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context - 1 John 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
    Well, you should have separated your understanding of the text from the Bible passages, rather than muddle all together in one sentence. If the text is about unbelievers, question is, can a believer regard an unbeliever as "brother" given the context?

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1 John 5:16[FONT="]If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. [/FONT]17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    Which sin(s) is not unto death?


    Any sin can potentially be a sin unto death. Whether or not a sin is "unto death" depends on the reason or basis for committing the sin. Remember, Jesus says that all sins will be forgiven a man except blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, i.e. accusing the Holy Spirit of lying. Therefore a sin unto death is any sin whereby the sinner intentionally signals his or her belief that the Holy Spirit is wrong concerning this particular action.

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Well, you should have separated your understanding of the text from the Bible passages, rather than muddle all together in one sentence. If the text is about unbelievers, question is, can a believer regard an unbeliever as "brother" given the context?
    I didn’t say the text was or was not about unbelievers, but it’s not necessarily talking about spiritual death either and how could the text be about a believer facing spiritual death after reading verse 18, if that’s what you’re trying to imply.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Any sin can potentially be a sin unto death. Whether or not a sin is "unto death" depends on the reason or basis for committing the sin. Remember, Jesus says that all sins will be forgiven a man except blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, i.e. accusing the Holy Spirit of lying. Therefore a sin unto death is any sin whereby the sinner intentionally signals his or her belief that the Holy Spirit is wrong concerning this particular action.
    Can the text be applied to both physical and spiritual deaths or is it just one of the two?

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    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Can the text be applied to both physical and spiritual deaths or is it just one of the two?
    The topic in 1John 5 is eternal life and so "death" = not eternal life.

  15. #15

    Re: Which sins are not unto death?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1 John 5:16[FONT="]If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. [/FONT]17 [FONT="]All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

    Which sin(s) is not unto death?
    [/FONT]

    The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Sin (therefore, death) is not imputed where there is no law. Romans 5:13 KJV declares:

    For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Believers and faithfuls are brethren in the Christ. They are not under the law. So, their sins (therefore, death) are not imputed: their sins do not lead to death.

    There is no condemnation for the brethren who are in the Christ. He (the Christ) is their Advocate.

    We can pray for and give life to sinning brethren in Christ who are not under the law.
    Grace and peace unto you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

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