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Thread: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

  1. #436
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I'm saying that just because you think that he's this amazing blessing, doesn't mean that you can't acknowledge that other Jews have also been a blessing.
    One of my son's soccer coaches was Jewish and he was a blessing to my son and the whole team. And I don't mean this flippantly at all.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


  2. #437
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    There was a time when "everyone knew" that the Jews used gentile blood to make Passover matzo. Of course it never happened. Proving what? "Everyone" can be wrong. I don't care if 99% of the people in the world have a stupid opinion. It's still stupid.
    I don't see how you can hang in there day, after day, after day dealing with such things. I can't and I wish you didn't have to. These threads grow tiresome to me with all the conspiracy theories out there. I wish you didn't have to. There's definitely been a turn in these forums and I am surprised it has been allowed to continue.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  3. #438
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    It's the way of the world, so what choice do I have?

    It seems kind of backwards, but about 100 years ago a Jewish writer named Ahad Ha-am found consolation in the blood libel that Jews use gentile blood to make Passover matzos. He asked, is it possible that everyone else is wrong and the Jews are right? Yes, he answered. The blood libel makes it possible. Because "everyone knew it to be true" and every Jew knew that it was a lie.

    So, go on people. Make your ridiculous accusations.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel


    "Jesus was born out of wedlock (Mishna Yebamoth 4,13) to His mother, Miriam, and her lover Pantera (Shabbat 104b). She is said to have been the descendant of princes and rulers, and to have played the harlot with a carpenter (Sanhedrin 106a). Jesus spent time in Egypt, from where He learned magic. He was a magician who deceived and led Israel astray. He mocked at the words of the wise, was tainted with heresy, and was thus excommunicated (Sanhedrin 107b). He called Himself God, also the Son of Man, and said that He would go up to heaven (Jerusalem Taanit 65a). He was “near to the kingdom” and had five disciples (Sanhedrin 43a). He was tried in Lydda as a deceiver and as a teacher of apostasy (Tosephta Sanhedrin X, 11: Jerusalem Sanhedrin 25c,d). He was executed in Lydda, on the eve of Passover, which was also the eve of the Sabbath, by being stoned and hung, or crucified (Tosephta Sanhedrin IX, 7). For forty days a herald proclaimed that He was to be stoned, and invited evidence in His favor, but none was given (Sanhedrin 43a). He (under the name of Balaam) was put to death by Pinchas the Robber (Pontius Pilate?) when He was thirty-three years old (Sanhedrin 106b). He was punished in Gehenna by the means of boiling filth (Gittin 56b, 57a). Finally, under the name of Balaam, He is one of those excluded from the world to come (Mishna Sanhedrin X, 2)."

    Hi Fenris,

    So are you saying here that this quote from the Talmud is not talking about Jesus ( the one we know) and that this person is an entirely a different person? The similarities are striking don’t you think to the Jesus of the NT ....
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






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  5. #440
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Hi Fenris,

    So are you saying here that this quote from the Talmud is not talking about Jesus ( the one we know) and that this person is an entirely a different person? The similarities are striking don’t you think to the Jesus of the NT ....
    It's not the same person. I'll quote my own post for you, to make it easy.

    First of all, this character's name is "Yeshu", Not Jesus. Secondly his father is Pantera (or Panthera or Pandira), not Joseph. Thirdly, this character lived about 80BC. Also, he was tried in Lydda, not Jerusalem, and stoned, not crucified. He never said that he was God. "Son of man" is a poetic way of saying "person" and occurs all over scripture with no special significance. He had 5 disciples, not 12. "Pinchas the robber" is said to have killed Bilaam, not Yeshu. "Bilaam" is not a code name for Jesus, Bilaam was an another actual person, who wanted to curse the Jews (see Numbers 22-24), and whom God is presumably punishing.

    So I guess now Christians are going to pass judgment on the entire Jewish criminal justice system going back to the beginning of time and condemn us for anyone who we ever judged.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  6. #441
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    It's not the same person. I'll quote my own post for you, to make it easy.

    First of all, this character's name is "Yeshu", Not Jesus. Secondly his father is Pantera (or Panthera or Pandira), not Joseph. Thirdly, this character lived about 80BC. Also, he was tried in Lydda, not Jerusalem, and stoned, not crucified. He never said that he was God. "Son of man" is a poetic way of saying "person" and occurs all over scripture with no special significance. He had 5 disciples, not 12. "Pinchas the robber" is said to have killed Bilaam, not Yeshu. "Bilaam" is not a code name for Jesus, Bilaam was an another actual person, who wanted to curse the Jews (see Numbers 22-24), and whom God is presumably punishing.

    So I guess now Christians are going to pass judgment on the entire Jewish criminal justice system going back to the beginning of time and condemn us for anyone who we ever judged.
    Yes, thanks, I did already read this part of your reply.

    I am just trying to clarify that the Talmud is not referencing our Jesus here but, as you say, . The similarities are striking don’t you think?

    When ( approximately ) if you know, was this section penned?

    An aside, question if I could.

    Who is Jesus ( our Jesus ) to you ?


    He claimed to be God, so as I see it, He’s either God as he said, a lunatic or a liar.
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

  7. #442
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Yes, thanks, I did already read this part of your reply.
    Awesome.

    I am just trying to clarify that the Talmud is not referencing our Jesus here but, as you say, . The similarities are striking don’t you think?
    False prophets and false messiahs were definitely a thing during the second temple era. Even Rabban Gamliel mentions two in Acts 5, but there were many others. So no, I don't find the similarities striking at all.
    When ( approximately ) if you know, was this section penned?
    The Talmud is based on transcripts and was redacted between the year 200 and 500.

    An aside, question if I could.

    Who is Jesus ( our Jesus ) to you ?
    That's a complicated question and not appropriate for this part of the forum. Perhaps contro?


    He claimed to be God, so as I see it, He’s either God as he said, a lunatic or a lier.
    Or misquoted and/or misunderstood.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  8. #443
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I don't see how you can hang in there day, after day, after day dealing with such things. I can't and I wish you didn't have to. These threads grow tiresome to me with all the conspiracy theories out there. I wish you didn't have to. There's definitely been a turn in these forums and I am surprised it has been allowed to continue.
    Brother Mark,

    We are talking here, trying to flush truth out of the bushes. If I believe something wrongly, then I would like to know it. Conversely, if others are misinformed, on any given issue, then that’s important to me (and I assume it’s important to you as well.)

    Just because we adamantly beleive something, does not make it true. Take the non-messianic Jews for instance, they do not believe that our Jesus is the long promised Jewish Messiah. We beleive this mistaken so we talk about it.

    Another issue...is the ‘Talmud’ is a benign Jewish document(s). What’s the truth?
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

  9. #444
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Brother Mark,

    We are talking here, trying to flush truth out of the bushes. If I believe something wrongly, then I would like to know it. Conversely, if others are misinformed, on any given issue, then that’s important to me (and I assume it’s important to you as well.)

    Just because we adamantly beleive something, does not make it true. Take the non-messianic Jews for instance, they do not believe that our Jesus is the long promised Jewish Messiah. We beleive this mistaken so we talk about it.

    Another issue is that the ‘Talmud’ is a benign Jewish document(s). What’s the truth?
    I wasn't referring to discussions of Jesus, but rather, some of the anti-jewish posts in this thread. Fenris and I have had some discussions on Jesus that were rather blunt. But saying things like what was said in post 425 or in other threads, accusing Jews of genocide, etc. Such things do not further our Lord Jesus desire to win over lost souls. Rather, they alienate.

    As Fenris himself said in the thread about Hitler "Who would want to worship a God that forgave Hitler but condemned Hitler's victims to hell?" Indeed! Who would?

    I imagine (and this is just a guess), but part of what motivates Fenris to post here is to deal with what he sees as anti-semitism. If that is the case, then we should be careful what we say, so that if he is offended, he is offended by the gospel and not some other belief we have.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  10. #445
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    On whether Jesus is the messiah or not, of course we have to agree to disagree. But some of this peripheral stuff shouldn't even be coming up. "Are the Jews trying to take over the world through shadowy century-long plots"? "Is the Talmud a benign document"?

    It's 2018 not 1018.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  11. #446
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I don't see how you can hang in there day, after day, after day dealing with such things. I can't and I wish you didn't have to. These threads grow tiresome to me with all the conspiracy theories out there. I wish you didn't have to. There's definitely been a turn in these forums and I am surprised it has been allowed to continue.
    Brother Mark,

    We are talking here, trying to flush truth out of the bushes. If I believe something wrongly, then I would like to know it. Conversely, if others are misinformed, on any given issue, then that’s important to me (and I assume it’s important to you as well.)

    Just because we adamantly believe something, does not make it true. Take the non-messianic Jews for instance, they do not believe that our Jesus is the long promised Jewish Messiah. We believe this to be mistaken, so we talk about it.

    Another issue is that the ‘Talmud’ is a benign Jewish document(s). What’s the truth?
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

  12. #447
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    On whether Jesus is the messiah or not, of course we have to agree to disagree.
    And that is the central issue between us.

    But some of this peripheral stuff shouldn't even be coming up. "Are the Jews trying to take over the world through shadowy century-long plots"? "Is the Talmud a benign document"?
    Agreed whole heartedly.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  13. #448
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    On whether Jesus is the messiah or not, of course we have to agree to disagree. But some of this peripheral stuff shouldn't even be coming up. "Are the Jews trying to take over the world through shadowy century-long plots"? "Is the Talmud a benign document"?

    It's 2018 not 1018.
    Agreed. This type of attitude about the Jews having malice goes all the way back to Babylon and an evil man named "Haman."

    Those of us who love God should KNOW that walking in Haman's shadow is opposing God.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I'm on a theme here. The Syrian civil war has created 10 million refugees. This is far more than the number of refugees from the creation of the state of Israel. And the west says it's their moral obligation to absorb all of them. And yet. Why does none of them say they have an obligation to absorb even one Palestinian refugee? Do explain.
    I'm not saying things are consistent or fair. Sure Israel has legitimate gripes as you point out.

    My main point is that Israel will only be sanctified and repent on the day of the Lord, until then it's in a state of sin unlike the blessed periods of old.

    Messiah will come and restore Israel, until then it's only a partial regathering, and in sin.

    I'm not saying any worse sin than any other country, on some issues Israel acts with deep integrity compared to its neighbours. But we must look to Messiah for the proper blessed regathering of Israel.

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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I'm not saying things are consistent or fair. Sure Israel has legitimate gripes as you point out.

    My main point is that Israel will only be sanctified and repent on the day of the Lord, until then it's in a state of sin unlike the blessed periods of old.
    Your main point appeared to have been that Israel behaves badly, which I refuted.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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