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Thread: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

  1. #256
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    1.6 million people are "a few token Arabs"?

    The 5 Jews still in Iraq down from a 1948 population of 135,000 is a "few token Jews" perhaps.



    Who said Israel was perfect?

    Your approach of excusing and justifying the Palestinian intransigence even as they build a culture glorifying Jihad and death is wrong.
    Well I'm glad you admit Israel is not perfect. Sure all countries do wrong, (look at our president Zuma, what a disgusting selfish individual) and I agree the Palestinians misbehave too. It's time for them to move on.

  2. #257
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I hear you that other countries are wrong too. I'm not calling Israel the worst human rights abuser. And I was trying to explain where some of the anger comes from
    Israel is hated for her virtues, not her vices. As one insane example, the UN human rights council is chaired by some of the worst human rights abusers in the world. Afghanistan, China, Cuba, Pakistan, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela ...and they have the audacity to censure Israel? In a sane world, Syria would be hated for killing half a million civilians, but no, it's all Israel Israel Israel. The anger is 0% justified. At best it's to cause the world to ignore real human rights, in some cases right next door to Israel. At worst, it's plain old Antisemtisim.

    My motivation is more from a prophetic perspective, this current regathering of Israel is not a repentful Israel as per Ezras regathering after the Babylonian exile.

    Ezekiel 38/39 and Joel 2 are both clear that Israel only truly repents after a massive and successful attack on Israel.
    Maybe that massive and sucessful attack on Israel was the Holocaust, and because Israel repented God brought them back to their land? Something to think about.

    I just don't like that Christians tend to worship Israel before it's true spiritual restoration and repentance on the day of the Lord.
    Many righteous Christians support Israel, they don't "worship" Israel.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  3. #258
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Well I'm glad you admit Israel is not perfect.
    I never said Israel was perfect. The world's focus on Israel is nauseating however.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  4. #259
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Israel is hated for her virtues, not her vices. As one insane example, the UN human rights council is chaired by some of the worst human rights abusers in the world. Afghanistan, China, Cuba, Pakistan, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela ...and they have the audacity to censure Israel? In a sane world, Syria would be hated for killing half a million civilians, but no, it's all Israel Israel Israel. The anger is 0% justified. At best it's to cause the world to ignore real human rights, in some cases right next door to Israel. At worst, it's plain old Antisemtisim.
    Maybe that massive and sucessful attack on Israel was the Holocaust, and because Israel repented God brought them back to their land? Something to think about.

    Well I wouldn't refer to disallowing 700000 Arabs from returning to their homes after the war as a virtue. Despite other countries doing even worse. And therefore the anger is not 0% justified, even though the Palestinian refugees should start moving on now as per other displaced populations instead of still playing the victim.

  5. #260
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I never said Israel was perfect. The world's focus on Israel is nauseating however.
    True....................

  6. #261
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Israel is hated for her virtues, not her vices. As one insane example, the UN human rights council is chaired by some of the worst human rights abusers in the world. Afghanistan, China, Cuba, Pakistan, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela ...and they have the audacity to censure Israel? In a sane world, Syria would be hated for killing half a million civilians, but no, it's all Israel Israel Israel. The anger is 0% justified. At best it's to cause the world to ignore real human rights, in some cases right next door to Israel. At worst, it's plain old Antisemtisim.
    Maybe that massive and sucessful attack on Israel was the Holocaust, and because Israel repented God brought them back to their land? Something to think about.


    Many righteous Christians support Israel, they don't "worship" Israel.
    I think you are putting your head in the sand that the holocaust matches the invasion of the northern army into Israel as described in Joel 2 and Ezekiel 38/39. Neither has modern Israel ever repented like the deep national repentance of Ezra 9/10. I'm looking forward to that, unfortunately God sends the northern army before that happens. The NT however refers to an earlier revival among the Jews and so we see two groups:

    An earlier revival among Jews. Then a later group who recognises the truth only on the Day of the Lord. In the meantime the current Zionist Israel is nothing like the faithful God fearing Israel of biblical times.

  7. #262
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Well I wouldn't refer to disallowing 700000 Arabs from returning to their homes after the war as a virtue.
    Again, world war 2 displaced 50 million people. The only ones that haven't been resettled somewhere are the Palestinians. Enemy civilians are never allowed to settle in a country they're at war against, that's insane and no country would allow it. No country should allow it. Except, I guess Israel. because...?


    Nice piece by Eric Hoffer, written in 1968. Still true-

    Israel’s peculiar position
    Eric Hoffer

    The Jews are a peculiar people: things permitted to other nations are forbidden to the Jews. Other nations drive out thousands, even millions of people
    and there is no refugee problem. Russia did it, Poland and Czechoslovakia did it. Turkey threw out a million Greeks and Algeria a million Frenchman.
    Indonesia threw out heaven knows how many Chinese and no one says a word about refugees. But in the case of Israel , the displaced Arabs have become eternal refugees.

    Everyone insists that Israel must take back every single one.

    Arnold Toynbee calls the displacement of the Arabs an atrocity greater than any committed by the Nazis. Other nations when victorious on the battlefield dictate peace terms. But when Israel is victorious, it must sue for peace. Everyone expects the Jews to be the only real Christians in this world. Other nations, when they are defeated, survive and recover but should Israel be defeated it would be destroyed. Had Nasser triumphed last June [1967], he would have wiped Israel off the map, and no one would have lifted a finger to save the Jews.

    No commitment to the Jews by any government, including our own, is worth the paper it is written on. There is a cry of outrage all over the world when people die in Vietnam or when two Blacks are executed in Rhodesia . But, when Hitler slaughtered Jews no one demonstrated against him. The Swedes, who were ready to break off diplomatic relations with America because of what we did in Vietnam , did not let out a peep when Hitler was slaughtering Jews. They sent Hitler choice iron ore, and ball bearings, and serviced his troops in Norway .

    The Jews are alone in the world. If Israel survives, it will be solely because of Jewish efforts. And Jewish resources. Yet at this moment, Israel is our only reliable and unconditional ally. We can rely more on Israel than Israel can rely on us. And one has only to imagine what would have happened last summer [1967] had the Arabs and their Russian backers won the war, to realize how vital the survival of Israel is to America and the West in general.3

    I have a premonition that will not leave me; as it goes with Israel so will it go with all of us. Should Israel perish, the Holocaust will be upon us all.”
    And therefore the anger is not 0% justified
    When there is "anger" because other countries created refugees, only then will the anger against Israel be justified. I have not seen one single demonstration, one single vote at the UN, for the 10 million refugees created by the Syrian civil war.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  8. #263
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In the meantime the current Zionist Israel is nothing like the faithful God fearing Israel of biblical times.
    You guys really need to coordinate, because I got other people here telling me how bad Israel was in biblical times.

    Deuteronomy 20 lays out activity that the Priests would do before battle in biblical Israel. This function is now carried out by chaplains in the IDF. They read the following, in the biblical language of Hebrew naturally, before soldiers go off to battle:

    Hear, O Israel, today you are approaching the battle against your enemies. Let your hearts not be faint; you shall not be afraid, and you shall not be alarmed, and you shall not be terrified because of them. For the Lord, your God, is the One Who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.


    The following prayer is said in synagogues all over the during Sabbath prayers:

    He Who blessed our forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- may He bless the fighters of the Israel Defense Forces, who stand guard over our land and the cities of our God, from the border of the Lebanon to the desert of Egypt, and from the Great Sea unto the approach of the Aravah, on the land, in the air, and on the sea.

    May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them. May the Holy One, Blessed is He, preserve and rescue our fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor.

    May He lead our enemies under our soldiers’ sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory. And may there be fulfilled for them the verse: For it is the Lord your God, Who goes with you to battle your enemies for you to save you.

    Now let us respond: Amen.


    And finally, this great story from Israel's war in Lebanon in 1982-

    During the closing days of Israel's 1982 "Peace in Galilee" campaign in Lebanon, I was one of a group of ten Chabad Chassidim who got permission from the army to enter Beirut to cheer up the soldiers. The soldiers welcomed us as though we were announcing the end of the war. The entire night
    we went from group to group, singing, dancing, talking, laughing, and of course making L'Chaims.

    There was no time to sleep. At the crack of dawn we got our tefillin (phylacteries) out of our bags and began asking soldiers if they wanted to do a mitzvah and put them on for a minute. At that hour of the morning most of the soldiers were still asleep. I walked around looking for "customers" and happened upon a line of about ten open jeeps with two soldiers seated in each. Their motors were running and they were waiting in the chilly morning to go out on a mission. It
    must have been some sort of combat foray, because they were armed to the teeth and were wearing bulky bulletproof vests and steel helmets.

    I approached the first jeep and asked them if they wanted to put on tefillin and one soldier agreed. When he finished, I moved on to the next one and asked the driver the same question, but was in for an unpleasant surprise. He just listened, looking straight ahead, and didn't even react to my question. So I just stood there and waited for a reply. After a few seconds of silence, he turned to me and said (loose translation): "Get out of my sight, you parasite religious scum! If you don't get out of my face I'll tear you to pieces! I hate you vermin!" I understood that the answer was no. I tried to force a smile and figure out something to say, when suddenly the driver of the next jeep in line called out to me in a desperate tone of voice: "Rabbi, Rabbi! Come here. I want to put on tefillin." I turned, happy to get away, and began to walk toward the third jeep in the line. "Tell me Rabbi," he called nervously after I had taken a few steps and was still quite a distance from him. "If... if I put on tefillin will G‑d protect me?" It was obvious that the man was very worried. Yesterday he was probably sitting in his hardware store selling pipes and tools when they called him up to reserve duty, and suddenly here he was about to enter the front lines.
    "Listen, my friend," I assured him, "G‑d will protect you whether you put on the tefillin or not. Don't worry. He loves you because you are a Jew. But if G‑d protects you for free, so why not do something for Him for free, and put on tefillin?"

    It seems that the soldier in the second jeep — the one that had cursed me out — had heard all this, because when I finished putting on the tefillin on this soldier he called out, "Hey Rabbi! Come over here!" I turned around to see him rolling up his sleeve like he wanted to put on the tefillin and motioning me to come over. I took a few steps towards him. "What do you want? What happened?" "Listen!" he replied "What do you care? I want to put on the tefillin, too."
    I gave him a look and an Israeli hand motion as if to say, "Are you for real?" And he replied: "Listen, my friend. To put on tefillin in order to go to heaven or to be religious, that's not for me. But to put on tefillin for no reason... That I'm willing to do!
    As I am always being told here, only God knows the heart. So it's not for us to say who is good or faithful, and who isn't. God says the land will vomit out the Jews if they are bad, and it looks like they're not going anywhere. So they have enough merits that God permits them to remain. If it's good enough for God, who are we to say otherwise?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  9. #264
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    You guys really need to coordinate, because I got other people here telling me how bad Israel was in biblical times.
    Yeah, he must be reading a different bible (you know, the one without the exile).

  10. #265
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Spirit of Haman floating around here.....

    just sayin'
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In the meantime the current Zionist Israel is nothing like the faithful God fearing Israel of biblical times.
    This is my current take as well.

    ( as this view does not make me an anti-Semite.)




    POST EDIT:

    When they were bad in the OT, they were punished right? Blessed when good?

    The Jews at 70AD were destroyed by the Romans. The veil was torn in two. The old covenant was crushed by God for the last time - for killing God in the flesh ( Jesus ). They were never meant to recover ( unless they follow Jesus ) not in the Pharisees system anyway. But it did survive and it would seem, if history can show us anything, since 70AD, things have been not so good for the Jews.

    Since 70AD, the Jews been more or less constantly persecuted, yes?

    How many countries have they been kicked out of? Martin Luther? Ww2?

    A thought...

    If the Jews were punished in the OT for their disbelief and rebellion, and blessed when good, why would’nt it logically follow that they are still being punished for disobedience?

    And have been since 70AD right to today.

    Seems logical to me anyway.

    But of course, it depends on ones eschatological position, where one stands in these woods.
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith



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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Well I wouldn't refer to disallowing 700000 Arabs from returning to their homes after the war as a virtue. Despite other countries doing even worse. And therefore the anger is not 0% justified, even though the Palestinian refugees should start moving on now as per other displaced populations instead of still playing the victim.
    Most Arab countries won't allow them to "move on" and many were actually kicked out of countries and forced to go to Palestine. It serves their interest to have people in Gaza they can point to and use to criticize and condemn Israel.

    On the other hand Israel does more to aid and help those in Palestine that most if not all Arab countries despite the fact that the majority of Palestinians want to commit genocide upon the Jews and see Israel wiped off the face of the earth.
    God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able,
    but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    POST EDIT:

    When they were bad in the OT, they were punished right? Blessed when good?

    The Jews at 70AD were destroyed by the Romans. The veil was torn in two. The old covenant was crushed by God for the last time - for killing God in the flesh ( Jesus ). They were never meant to recover ( unless they follow Jesus ) not in the Pharisees system anyway. But it did survive and it would seem, if history can show us anything, since 70AD, things have been not so good for the Jews.

    Since 70AD, the Jews been more or less constantly persecuted, yes?

    How many countries have they been kicked out of? Martin Luther? Ww2?
    Someone once asked Rabbi Kushner "Doesn't the history of the Jews wandering and low status prove that they are being cursed for rejecting Jesus? He answered, "No, not at all, because the same people who predicted that the Jews would suffer are the ones who persecuted them. It would be as if I predicted that window would break, and then threw a rock through it. That would say more about my propensity for violence than it would about my gift of prophecy."


    It seems to me that you should be troubled that so many so-called Christians saw fit to behave in such an un-Jesus like manner, rather than using their bad behavior towards an oppressed minority as "proof" of your theological beliefs.
    A thought...

    If the Jews were punished in the OT for their disbelief and rebellion, and blessed when good, why would’nt it logically follow that they are still being punished for disobedience?

    And have been since 70AD right to today.

    Seems logical to me anyway.

    But of course, it depends on ones eschatological position, where one stands in these woods.
    The state of Israel today is a technological, economic, and military superpower. Using your criteria, doesn't that mean that today's Jews are good? Being blessed by God?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  14. #269
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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Most Arab countries won't allow them to "move on" and many were actually kicked out of countries and forced to go to Palestine. It serves their interest to have people in Gaza they can point to and use to criticize and condemn Israel.
    Had a weird thought today. Everyone says that the western world has to accept all these Syrian refugees. Germany took more then a million of them. No one ever talks about them going home.

    How come no one wants any Palestinian refugees? Why is Israel obligated to take back every last one?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Trump to recognize Jerusalem as the eternal capitol of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Someone once asked Rabbi Kushner "Doesn't the history of the Jews wandering and low status prove that they are being cursed for rejecting Jesus? He answered, "No, not at all, because the same people who predicted that the Jews would suffer are the ones who persecuted them. It would be as if I predicted that window would break, and then threw a rock through it. That would say more about my propensity for violence than it would about my gift of prophecy."
    Hi there Fenris,

    I don’t think his answer is a good one, unfortunately. In the OT, when the Jews were faithful, they were [ TRUELY ] blessed. Not just with material things but spiritual things. When not, cursed. Finally destroyed and dispersed in 70AD by God Himself, the veil was torn in two and man now approached God in Jesus Christ and not through the types and shadows of the OT. This is a historical and NT Biblical fact.

    Perhaps God has been using the many different peoples over the hundreds of years since 70AD to keep that worldview suppressed because it is false. Jesus spoke harshly about the Pharisees and their system ( brood of vipers ? ) That makes far more sense than jumping to the conclusion that Kushner proposes. He is putting the cart before the horse here.

    One needs to look at this from Gods perspective, I think. Perhaps He is trying to tell ( the Jews ) something? (Got Jesus?)

    It seems to me that you should be troubled that so many so-called Christians saw fit to behave in such an un-Jesus like manner, rather than using their bad behavior towards an oppressed minority as "proof" of your theological beliefs.
    Yes, I am very troubled about how mankind behaves. Christians included. We have much to be ashamed for and much to give an accounting of. God is controlling things however, not man, in a way that is unknowable and mysterious. Just as God used the Romans et al. in history to punish his People, I believe he still does this.

    He uses other nations to punish His Chosen if they stray too far. Judgement follows rebellion. The West is going to be/is being punished by other worldly forces, partly because we have abandoned our first love - Jesus. It also makes sense that he would judge these nations who are so far from Him. He punishes and judges both peoples. His people and the rebellious, & He uses each to sharpen the other. How He chooses to do this is beyound comprehension. It appears he is “ok” with some violence tho to accomplish this just task.

    But I concur, looking back, there were better things we Christians could have done to convert these people, instead of using violence. I think God uses our violence to complete His Plan, not ours.


    The state of Israel today is a technological, economic, and military superpower. Using your criteria, doesn't that mean that today's Jews are good? Being blessed by God?
    Yes, the Israel of today is very smart and technically advanced. Lots of “good” people there to, and they do many “good things” in the world. (There is some bad to tho.) But are they really blessed in this world ?

    Do they have peace in the world?

    Are they Spiritually blessed?

    Do they have Jesus?

    No to all three questions unfortunately. Which do you think is more important?

    So no, I think they are completely not blessed in what really matters or in their current standing in the world.
    Which brings us full circle. Why do the Jews continue to experience such terrible persecution? Until they turn to Jesus, there will be no peace - ever I fear.

    Are we in the West trying to evangilize these people? Or are we letting our brothers and sisters die in there sins without the forgivensss that God offers in the person of Jesus Christ ?. We are all waiting for the Jews to come back right? I think we are the ones who will make that happen.

    Then they will be [ TRUELY ] blessd, as will the whole world.

    Regards,

    blue
    Last edited by bluesky22; Jan 14th 2018 at 08:09 AM. Reason: Grammar
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith



    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

    http://theyoungearth.org

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