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Thread: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

  1. #1

    The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    One of the confusing things about the chronology of Revelation is that the sixth seal stubbornly describes a major catastrophe where people want to hide from the face of the Lamb (indicating the coming of Jesus to earth on the Day of the Lord), but it is followed by the seventh seal, which is closely linked to the seven trumpets that follow.

    There are two ways to interpret this:
    1) the sun and moon are darkened multiple times, and the events in Revelation 6:12-17 just happen to be very similar to descriptions of the day of the Lord
    2) Revelation 6:12-17 does describe the day of the Lord, and so do the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl.

    I think #2 is correct, but I also think the trumpets follow the seventh seal. This is possible if Revelation 6:12-17 does not take place at the time of the sixth seal.

    The main focus of the sixth seal is the sealing of the 144,000 people of Israel, since the angel has the "seal" of the living God (Revelation 7:2-4). Revelation 6:12-16 provides the backdrop to the question in Revelation 6:17 (NIV) that introduces the 144,000:
    For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?
    Then the great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 is shown having withstood the great day of wrath. Except they are from all nations, not just Israel, though it is likely that the 144,000 are somewhere in the crowd (the crowd includes every tribe, which should include the twelve tribes of Israel). But this too is far in the future, after the tribulation ends.

    If this resolves the sequence for the seals and trumpets, we are left with the seven bowls. I think given all the other narratives that separate the seven trumpets and the seven bowls, it is possible to treat the bowls as a microscope into the time leading up to the seventh trumpet.

  2. #2

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    One of the confusing things about the chronology of Revelation is that the sixth seal stubbornly describes a major catastrophe where people want to hide from the face of the Lamb (indicating the coming of Jesus to earth on the Day of the Lord), but it is followed by the seventh seal, which is closely linked to the seven trumpets that follow.

    There are two ways to interpret this:
    1) the sun and moon are darkened multiple times, and the events in Revelation 6:12-17 just happen to be very similar to descriptions of the day of the Lord
    2) Revelation 6:12-17 does describe the day of the Lord, and so do the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl.
    The problem with this is, "the Day of the Lord" IS happening at the 6th Seal, and at the 7th Trumpet, and at the 7th Bowl, and at the 1st Seal, and at His Second Coming to the earth, and on into the entire 1000-yr reign (not that the majorly negative stuff continues therein), aka "in that day" [see Zech14:1,4,6,8,9,13,20,21 just for example of one of these points I listed], a "Day" of long duration with a great many things happening during its long duration.

    It's not just a small, limited amount of time (say, one 24-hr day [the day of His "return"]) but a prolonged time period (of judgments and governing/reigning), so ARRIVES to unfold upon the earth just before [rather, fairly simultaneously with] the 1st Seal (when Jesus STANDS to JUDGE, Rev4-5) and continues thereafter [of long duration, including all that I mentioned above].

  3. #3

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Thanks for your reply, TheDivineWatermark. You have a different idea about the duration of the day of the Lord. Before we get into a side discussion on that, suppose we replaced the words "Day of the Lord" with "the Second Coming of Christ" after the tribulation period.

    Matthew 24:29-31 (NIV)
    29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

    “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

    30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
    There are two ways (I could think of two. Other people will have more ways) to interpret this:
    1) the sun and moon are darkened multiple times, and the events in Revelation 6:12-17 just happen to be very similar to descriptions of the the Second Coming of Christ
    2) Revelation 6:12-17 does describe the Second Coming of Christ, and so do the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl.
    I guess that could muddle the argument based on "the great day of their wrath", but we can still appeal to Revelation 6:16 to demonstrate that the people saw the face of the Lamb at that time. So Revelation 6:17 still points to the Second Coming of Christ or the day of the Lord that includes the Second Coming of Christ.

    Even if the day of the Lord covers the entire tribulation period and subsequent millennium, it does not allow a simple chronological progression from Rev. 6:12-8:1 regarding the sixth and seventh seals. In particular, the sealing of the 144,000 needs to take place before the earth is harmed (Revelation 7:3), whereas Revelation 6:12-17 sounds like the earth is experiencing serious calamities.

    As for when the great day of the Lord begins, it must come after the sun and moon are darkened. Therefore, I disagree with your idea that it begins before the first seal. Do you think the sun and moon will be darkened multiple times as in #1?

    Joel 2:31
    The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

  4. #4

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    As for when the great day of the Lord begins, it must come after the sun and moon are darkened. Therefore, I disagree with your idea that it begins before the first seal. Do you think the sun and moon will be darkened multiple times as in #1?

    Joel 2:31
    The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
    I believe the Joel 2:31 is saying "before the GREAT [portion]" not "before the ENTIRE [time period as a whole commences]," see?

    So Joel 2:31 is parallel with Rev6:12 (6th Seal) when "the moon into blood" occurs, which is distinct from the "moon shall not give her light" (at the end of the 7 yrs; i.e. at the time of His 2nd Coming to the earth)


    [DOTL commences at the 1st Seal; however, "the GREAT [portion]" starts at the 5th Trumpet/1st woe unto the earth, so the 6th Seal [moon into blood] comes 'BEFORE the GREAT' / before the 5th Trumpet part. (but not before the entire thing starts [that is, not before the 1st Seal which starts it])]



    I'll get back to the rest later. I'm having a full workload today.

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    One of the confusing things about the chronology of Revelation is that the sixth seal stubbornly describes a major catastrophe where people want to hide from the face of the Lamb (indicating the coming of Jesus to earth on the Day of the Lord), but it is followed by the seventh seal, which is closely linked to the seven trumpets that follow.

    There are two ways to interpret this:
    1) the sun and moon are darkened multiple times, and the events in Revelation 6:12-17 just happen to be very similar to descriptions of the day of the Lord
    2) Revelation 6:12-17 does describe the day of the Lord, and so do the seventh trumpet and the seventh bowl.

    I think #2 is correct, but I also think the trumpets follow the seventh seal. This is possible if Revelation 6:12-17 does not take place at the time of the sixth seal.

    The main focus of the sixth seal is the sealing of the 144,000 people of Israel, since the angel has the "seal" of the living God (Revelation 7:2-4). Revelation 6:12-16 provides the backdrop to the question in Revelation 6:17 (NIV) that introduces the 144,000:

    Then the great multitude in Revelation 7:9-17 is shown having withstood the great day of wrath. Except they are from all nations, not just Israel, though it is likely that the 144,000 are somewhere in the crowd (the crowd includes every tribe, which should include the twelve tribes of Israel). But this too is far in the future, after the tribulation ends.

    If this resolves the sequence for the seals and trumpets, we are left with the seven bowls. I think given all the other narratives that separate the seven trumpets and the seven bowls, it is possible to treat the bowls as a microscope into the time leading up to the seventh trumpet.
    Those who have another agenda and want to make the Sixth Seal something other than a terrible world changing event as described, are trying to make it suit their interpretation of the end times.
    Unless the context clearly shows otherwise, we must read prophesies like the Sixth Seal as Written and as we know nothing like what is described has happened yet, then it remains in the future.

    The great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath is just a one Day; 24 hour event. Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-6, Zechariah 3:9, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Revelation 18:8

    An Explanation of the Sixth Seal:
    Revelation 6:12-17;
    I watched as the Lamb broke the Sixth Seal, – At this moment a Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:19 Triggered by the attack onto Israel, as per Psalms 83, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 5-:1-3, 2 Peter 3:7

    There was a violent earthquake – The microwave effect of the short wave spectrum penetrates the earth’s crust, triggering worldwide earthquakes. Haggai 2:6, Deut. 32:22, Isaiah 26:18-20, Amos 8:8-9, Psalm 18:7

    The sun turned black as a funeral pall – The approaching mass of the CME will obscure the sun. Joel 2:31, Amos 5:20

    The moon became a red as blood – The superheated hydrogen plasma strikes the moon and causes a thermite reaction with the aluminium oxide moon dust. Joel 2:31

    The stars in the sky fell like ripe figs – All our satellites crash to earth and its seems there will be a meteor shower. Isaiah 34:4, Isaiah 28:2

    The sky vanished like a scroll being rolled up – Our magnetosphere and atmosphere facing the sun are pushed aside by this great pressure wave. Jeremiah 30:23, Isaiah 34:4, 2 Peter 3:10, Isaiah 51:6

    Every mountain and island moved from their place – Tectonic plate movement caused by the microwave effect. Deuteronomy 32:22, Jeremiah 4:23-24, Habakkuk 3:6, Isaiah 13:13 Also may cause a pole shift.

    Everyone from high to lowly hid themselves – every person on earth will be terrified by what is coming and they scramble for cover. Ezekiel 7:15-19, Zephaniah 1:3 & 11, Luke 21:25-26

    They called out: Hide us from the wrath of the Lamb – People will dive for cover and most will survive, as they see this disaster approaching. The main mass of a CME takes 24 hours to arrive on earth. Isaiah 2:19, Isaiah 28:21-22, Jeremiah 25:38, Luke 23:30

    For the great Day of the Lord has come and who can stand? Deuteronomy 32:22, Ezekiel 7:7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Joel 1:15.
    This is the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible, it is this terrible event that enables the establishment of a One World Government. But those who took heed of the warnings, Isaiah 26:20-21, took shelter and at the same time called to the Lord for protection, Acts 2:21, 1 Peter 1:5, Psalm 68:1-3, Joel 2:32 & 3:16, will receive the great blessings the Lord has for His faithful Christian people.

  6. #6

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Keraz, thank you for your Bible verses about the day of the Lord. Zephaniah 1:18 seems to point to a "sudden" end of people on earth, which seems the most relevant to the 24-hour duration. I find it difficult to prove that the day of the Lord is 24 hours, even though that is the simplest interpretation. For the purposes of understanding the sixth seal, it may be sufficient to separate the day of the Lord from the 7 year tribulation.

    Joel 3:13-15 (NIV) seems to indicate that when the nations are gathered in the winepress before the battle, the day of the Lord is just "near", i.e. not yet. And this day is not qualified by "great", which I think is an adjective describing the whole day rather than just a part of it.
    13 Swing the sickle,
    for the harvest is ripe.
    Come, trample the grapes,
    for the winepress is full
    and the vats overflow—
    so great is their wickedness!”

    14 Multitudes, multitudes
    in the valley of decision!
    For the day of the Lord is near
    in the valley of decision.
    15 The sun and moon will be darkened,
    and the stars no longer shine.
    Keraz, so do you think Rev. 6:12-17 is the day of the Lord? Or is it just a CME that precedes the day of the Lord? You quoted Joel 2:31 to describe the moon turning to blood in Revelation 6:12, which seems to indicate the former, but then you say the one world government will come afterwards, which indicates the latter.

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Keraz, thank you for your Bible verses about the day of the Lord.

    Keraz, so do you think Rev. 6:12-17 is the day of the Lord? Or is it just a CME that precedes the day of the Lord? You quoted Joel 2:31 to describe the moon turning to blood in Revelation 6:12, which seems to indicate the former, but then you say the one world government will come afterwards, which indicates the latter.
    We shouldn't mix up the various forthcoming events.
    The next one is the Sixth Seal, that will set the scene for a One World Govt, but all the faithful Christians will go to live in the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5
    Then Gog from Magog will attach Beulah, then living in peace and prosperity; undefended, trusting on the Lord for His protection. He destroys Gog, so as to display His power. Ezekiel 38:23, Joel 2:20

    More than seven years later the Ani-Christ leader of the OWG will attack Beulah, but Jesus will Return, wipe them out and chain up Satan. Revelation 19:11-21

    The Day of the Lord's wrath, the Sixth Seal, will be just a one day event, because the CME He will use will strike the earth during one rotation, then pass on into outer space. As all CME's do.

  8. #8

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    We shouldn't mix up the various forthcoming events.
    The next one is the Sixth Seal, that will set the scene for a One World Govt, but all the faithful Christians will go to live in the new nation of Beulah, in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5
    Then Gog from Magog will attach Beulah, then living in peace and prosperity; undefended, trusting on the Lord for His protection. He destroys Gog, so as to display His power. Ezekiel 38:23, Joel 2:20

    More than seven years later the Ani-Christ leader of the OWG will attack Beulah, but Jesus will Return, wipe them out and chain up Satan. Revelation 19:11-21

    The Day of the Lord's wrath, the Sixth Seal, will be just a one day event, because the CME He will use will strike the earth during one rotation, then pass on into outer space. As all CME's do.
    Keraz, your timeline with the Day of the Lord's wrath coming before the 7-year one world government does not sound right. Starting on the day of the Lord, God rules as king on earth, not some one world government headed by the Anti-Christ.

    Zechariah 14:1,9 (NIV)
    14:1 A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls. ... 9 The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Keraz, your timeline with the Day of the Lord's wrath coming before the 7-year one world government does not sound right. Starting on the day of the Lord, God rules as king on earth, not some one world government headed by the Anti-Christ.

    Zechariah 14:1,9 (NIV)
    It is the sequence as given in Revelation.
    It's also logical, as some kind of dramatic event must occur in order for the nations to give up their sovereignty.
    Jesus does not become King over the whole world until His Return in glory. Revelation 19:11 Much must happen before that.

  10. #10

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It is the sequence as given in Revelation.
    It's also logical, as some kind of dramatic event must occur in order for the nations to give up their sovereignty.
    Jesus does not become King over the whole world until His Return in glory. Revelation 19:11 Much must happen before that.
    Yes, you are right that much must happen before Jesus' return in glory. I have equated the start of the Day of the Lord with that Return in glory (E.g. Rev 16:14). Feel free to disagree with that, but I'm just trying to explain where I am coming from. The OP's conjecture is that Rev 6:12-17 is a preview of Revelation 19:11, and is not in the strict sequence of coming before Revelation 7:2-4. You yourself have stated that Revelation 6:12-17 is a major worldwide event, yet Revelation 7:2-4 is a call not to harm the earth until after the 144,000 are sealed.

    I think you are reading Revelation assuming that Rev 6:12-17 comes before 7:2-4 in time. If Rev. 6:12-17 comes chronologically (and not just logically setting the scene) before Rev. 7:2-4, isn't it too late to start sealing the 144,000 (i.e. most of them would have been killed by the CME in your scenario).

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Yes, you are right that much must happen before Jesus' return in glory. I have equated the start of the Day of the Lord with that Return in glory (E.g. Rev 16:14). Feel free to disagree with that, but I'm just trying to explain where I am coming from. The OP's conjecture is that Rev 6:12-17 is a preview of Revelation 19:11, and is not in the strict sequence of coming before Revelation 7:2-4. You yourself have stated that Revelation 6:12-17 is a major worldwide event, yet Revelation 7:2-4 is a call not to harm the earth until after the 144,000 are sealed.

    I think you are reading Revelation assuming that Rev 6:12-17 comes before 7:2-4 in time. If Rev. 6:12-17 comes chronologically (and not just logically setting the scene) before Rev. 7:2-4, isn't it too late to start sealing the 144,000 (i.e. most of them would have been killed by the CME in your scenario).
    The Sixth Seal world changer is next. Revelation 7:14 explains about the vast multitude of Christians seen in verse 9, as those who have passed thru the 'maxi thiplis'; tribulation or as my REBible says: the great ordeal. What ordeal? The Sixth Seal, of course.
    The 144,000 will be ones who trusted in the Lord's protection when His terrible Day of wrath strikes the earth. As we are plainly told to do; Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

    Many Bible verses say that the Lord will protect His own during His Day of wrath. Isaiah 41:13, Isaiah 43:2, 2 Thess 1:7, 2 Peter 2:9

  12. #12

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Sixth Seal world changer is next. Revelation 7:14 explains about the vast multitude of Christians seen in verse 9, as those who have passed thru the 'maxi thiplis'; tribulation or as my REBible says: the great ordeal. What ordeal? The Sixth Seal, of course.
    The 144,000 will be ones who trusted in the Lord's protection when His terrible Day of wrath strikes the earth. As we are plainly told to do; Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

    Many Bible verses say that the Lord will protect His own during His Day of wrath. Isaiah 41:13, Isaiah 43:2, 2 Thess 1:7, 2 Peter 2:9
    Yes, God will certainly protect His own during the Day of Wrath, and the multitude in Revelation 7:14 have survived the events in Rev. 6:12-17. But let me ask again, isn't Rev 7:3-4 out of order if it comes AFTER the Day of Wrath?

    Revelation 7:3-4 NIV
    3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Yes, God will certainly protect His own during the Day of Wrath, and the multitude in Revelation 7:14 have survived the events in Rev. 6:12-17. But let me ask again, isn't Rev 7:3-4 out of order if it comes AFTER the Day of Wrath?

    Revelation 7:3-4 NIV
    Revelation 7:1 starts with: After that..... After what? The Sixth Seal, that precedes the gathering of the Christians out of every tribe, race, nation and language. All the people who stood strong in their faith during the Lord's Day of wrath.
    The four angels calm things down until God has set His Seal onto the144,000.

  14. #14

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Revelation 7:1 starts with: After that..... After what? The Sixth Seal, that precedes the gathering of the Christians out of every tribe, race, nation and language. All the people who stood strong in their faith during the Lord's Day of wrath.
    The four angels calm things down until God has set His Seal onto the144,000.
    OK. You are following a strict linear sequence of Revelation, and it hasn't bothered you that the earth is harmed before it is supposed to be harmed. You have interpreted the angel's call not to harm the earth as a prohibition of another round of harm.

    Revelation 7:1 starts with "After these things I saw..." I would like to suggest that even though events happen linearly in time, what John actually saw is not necessarily in that sequence. It happens all the time on TV or in movies -- flashbacks. To show that this also applies to the book of Revelation, I will offer one example that is definitely out of order.

    Revelation 12:5 NKJV
    She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
    This is talking about the birth of Christ. (Merry Christmas!) It is not possible that it took place after the events in Revelation 6:12-17. Therefore, Revelation is not following a strictly linear sequence.

    Second, I want to offer another reason why the crux of the sixth seal is the sealing of the 144,000 and not the day of wrath. Every seal involves "giving". 1) crown 2) sword 3) pricing information 4) authority to kill 5) white robes 6) seals on the forehead 7) trumpets. Rev. 6:12-17 is inserted to explain what the 144,000 are protected from.

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    I fully understand how Revelation refers back and forward to some events, giving extra details. I see Rev 14:14-20, as another description of the Sixth Seal.
    But the sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls is given in an order that should not be messed around with.

    The Seventh Seal is just a time gap, after and nothing to do with God's seal on the 144,000.

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