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Thread: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

  1. #46

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Rev15:1,6,8 (21:9) refer to these as "the seven LAST plagues". [edit to add-->] Rev15:1 says "because in them the WRATH of God is COMPLETED" [not STARTED and finished also] http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/15-1.htm

    Then there is also: Rev9:18,20 "these three plagues" (at the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe time frame)

    Also: Rev11:6 (re: the 2W who have 1260 days [ending with the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe time frame]) "smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will"

    Also: (again re: Vials) "these plagues" in Rev16:9,21 (2x; re: 7th Vial)

    Lastly: Rev22:18 refers to "the plagues that are written in this book"

    Sounds like a lot of them, and that the Vials are only the "LAST" of them

  2. #47
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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Rev15:1,6,8 (21:9) refer to these as "the seven LAST plagues". [edit to add-->] Rev15:1 says "because in them the WRATH of God is COMPLETED" [not STARTED and finished also] http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/15-1.htm
    Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." My understanding is that these 7 last plagues are different than any other plagues. These 7 and no others comprise the sum total of God's wrath. Mankind fills up the cups with sin. God pours them out in wrath as punishment for sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Then there is also: Rev9:18,20 "these three plagues" (at the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe time frame)

    Also: Rev11:6 (re: the 2W who have 1260 days) "smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will"

    Also: (again re: Vials) "these plagues" in Rev16:9,21 (2x; re: 7th Vial)

    Lastly: Rev22:18 refers to "the plagues that are written in this book"

    Sounds like a lot of them, and that the Vials are only the "LAST" of them
    I can understand why you would think this, but the plagues in chapter 9 are not part of God's judgment. God's wrath is all about his judgment upon sin.

    The plagues of chapter 11 are directed against those who sin, but the killing of the 2 witnesses is part of the sin for which judgment is not poured out until the 7 last plagues. These 7 and only these 7 are the plagues of God's wrath in my opinion.

  3. #48

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I can understand why you would think this, but the plagues in chapter 9 are not part of God's judgment. God's wrath is all about his judgment upon sin.

    The plagues of chapter 11 are directed against those who sin, but the killing of the 2 witnesses is part of the sin for which judgment is not poured out until the 7 last plagues. These 7 and only these 7 are the plagues of God's wrath in my opinion.
    The way I understand it is that (at the time of the opening of the first Seal [Rev4-5; 6:1-2]) Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (just like Isaiah 3:13 speaks of "stands up [H5324] to plead/contend... stands [H5975] to judge" [and chpt 2 mentions "the day of the Lord"/"in that day," by the way--see vv.19-21, for example, "when he ariseth [H6965] to shake terribly the earth"]).

    That, and also that I see 2Th2:7-8 to be saying pretty much the same thing as what Lam2:1-7 esp vv.3-4 are saying:

    2:1 How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!

    2 The Lord hath swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob, and hath not pitied: he hath thrown down in his wrath the strong holds of the daughter of Judah; he hath brought them down to the ground: he hath polluted the kingdom and the princes thereof.

    3 He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy, and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about.

    4 He hath bent his bow like an enemy: he stood [H5324] with his right hand as an adversary, and slew all that were pleasant to the eye in the tabernacle of the daughter of Zion: he poured out his fury like fire.

    5 The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up all her palaces: he hath destroyed his strong holds, and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.

    6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the Lord hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

    7 The Lord hath cast off his altar, he hath abhorred his sanctuary, he hath given up into the hand of the enemy the walls of her palaces; they have made a noise in the house of the Lord, as in the day of a solemn feast.



    So, v.3's "he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy," sounds very much like 2Th2:7-8a "only one who is hindering at present will hinder, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be'], AND THEN shall that Wicked be revealed..." . I see this as Seal #1, when Jesus "STANDS to JUDGE" (see Lam2:4 just after the one I just quoted here).




    [presently, this is the case: "[...] seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God." But Rev4-5 depicts Him in the "STANDS to JUDGE" aspect, which I believe to be "future" due to Rev1:1's "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]" and similar to the wording in 4:1 (i.e. the "future" things)--the "4 living creatures" (which I see correlating with the 4-directional plotment of Israel in past history) are the ones who intro the first 4 SEALS, so is it really far-fetched to see Rev4-5,6 as Jesus standing to "contend" in this way, at the START of those 7 years? I don't think it's unreasonable at all]

  4. #49
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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    How does the standing theory fit with Rev 6:16, where God the father "sitteth," at the same time as the mountains and islands are being moved?

    The way I understand the timing of things is quite different from you, but I agree that Rev 5 correlates with Rev 1:1. Rev 5 is the word picture of what is just stated in Rev 1:1. I believe the scroll is the Revelation. Jesus received the scroll the moment he redeemed mankind - Rev 5:9. Rev 5:3 states that no man in heaven or earth could open the scroll, just as stated in Matt 24:36. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only." Mark 13:32 includes the Son not knowing. Therefore, the opening of the scroll, the standing of Jesus to take the scroll, is just the revealing of future events, first to Jesus and then to his servants. Judgments were revealed when Jesus stood and opened the scroll, but they were not yet performed.

    From my perspective, I see one case of the Father sitting while judgments occur; and another case of Jesus standing without sending judgments, merely taking the scroll.

    In regard to Rev 4:1, and everything else being after the church age, Jesus didn't open the scroll until Rev 6. The scroll had to be open for John to write about it. I don't understand the idea that everything after Rev 4:1 is future. I can understand saying the events of chapter 6 are future, but this does not hold true for most of the events in chapter 5.

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    How does the standing theory fit with Rev 6:16, where God the father "sitteth," at the same time as the mountains and islands are being moved?

    The way I understand the timing of things is quite different from you, but I agree that Rev 5 correlates with Rev 1:1. Rev 5 is the word picture of what is just stated in Rev 1:1. I believe the scroll is the Revelation. Jesus received the scroll the moment he redeemed mankind - Rev 5:9. Rev 5:3 states that no man in heaven or earth could open the scroll, just as stated in Matt 24:36. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my father only." Mark 13:32 includes the Son not knowing. Therefore, the opening of the scroll, the standing of Jesus to take the scroll, is just the revealing of future events, first to Jesus and then to his servants. Judgments were revealed when Jesus stood and opened the scroll, but they were not yet performed.

    From my perspective, I see one case of the Father sitting while judgments occur; and another case of Jesus standing without sending judgments, merely taking the scroll.

    In regard to Rev 4:1, and everything else being after the church age, Jesus didn't open the scroll until Rev 6. The scroll had to be open for John to write about it. I don't understand the idea that everything after Rev 4:1 is future. I can understand saying the events of chapter 6 are future, but this does not hold true for most of the events in chapter 5.
    John 5:22 says two important things:

    *[[Joh 5:22]] KJV* For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    All judgment (OF MEN) has been given to Jesus because he is the son of man. Rev 1:18 says that Jesus has the keys of hell and death and in Rev. 6 we see that those doors have been opened:

    *[[Rev 6:8]] KJV* And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

    When it comes time for Jesus to assume his kingdom and all the kingdom's of the world, his status will change from being a prince:

    *[[Rev 1:5]] KJV* And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the PRINCE of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    To becoming the king of kings. His first duties will be to remove the tares out of his kingdom, the kingdom that was promised to the seed of Abraham. But where is Jesus going to rule from? None other than from Jerusalem! When the king goes to war he sounds the trumpet. Rev 4:1...

    *[[Rev 4:1]] KJV* After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Besides standing, there is one, almost unnoticeable event in Rev 4 & 5, versus chapter 1.

    *[[Rev 1:4]] KJV* John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    *[[Rev 5:6]] KJV* And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    The seven spirits have been sent forth into all of the earth. What are they doing in the earth? Nothing but gathering ALL of the house of Israel to Jerusalem. God is going to bring all of the house of Israel to Jerusalem for judgment. The result of which will be a scattering into all of the 4 winds:
    *[[Eze 5:4]] KJV* Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.
    *[[Eze 5:5]] KJV* Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her....

    *[[Eze 5:10]] KJV* Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds....
    *[[Eze 5:15]] KJV* So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it.

    God, after all this, will set about to gather the remnant, his elect from the 4 winds:

    *[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Where will they be gathered to?
    THE WILDERNESS!

    *[[Eze 20:34]] KJV* And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
    *[[Eze 20:35]] KJV* And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

    Where is the wilderness located?
    SEVEN PLACES just outside of the promised land.

    *[[Isa 11:11]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

    Those 7 spirits, HIS SEVEN ANGELS, at the sounding of the trumpet, to gather the people, will go forth,
    First, to gather them to Jerusalem for judgment, THEN,
    from the 4 winds for redemption:

    *[[Mat 24:32]] KJV* Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    *[[Mat 24:33]] KJV* So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Jesus included verse 31
    *[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    When he referred to all these things.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    GB

    P.S. When the trumpet of Rev 4 sounds to gather the house of Israel to Jerusalem, this should prove to all pre-tribbers, that they were wrong. But, my earnest prayer is, that before day 1290 arrives, when the 6th seal is opened, they will see the error of their ways. But i don't just pray for pre-tribbers.
    Blessings to all!
    Last edited by goldenboy; Jan 9th 2018 at 04:55 AM. Reason: added a final thought.

  6. #51

    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    John 5:22 says two important things:

    *[[Joh 5:22]] KJV* For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    This was the very verse I was just getting ready to respond with. You beat me to it!



    [Acts 17:30-31 also "because He has fixed [set/established] a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through [by/in] a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising [in having raised] Him out from the dead." (not a 24-hr day)]

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    John 5:22 says two important things:

    *[[Joh 5:22]] KJV* For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

    All judgment (OF MEN) has been given to Jesus because he is the son of man. Rev 1:18 says that Jesus has the keys of hell and death and in Rev. 6 we see that those doors have been opened:

    *[[Rev 6:8]] KJV* And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    John 5:21 "For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will." The judgment of John 5:22 is speaking about life after death. Jesus was given authority to raise 100% of dead.

    This is in contrast to Rev 6:8, where people are dying at the hands of the nations. There have been 4 kingdoms with world power, that is, the authority to kill 100% of the people. Babylon was the first. Dan 5:19 ""And for the majesty that he gave him, all people, nations, and languages, trembled and feared before him: whom he would he slew; and whom he would he kept alive; and whom he would he set up; and whom he would he put down." In Rev 6:8, no nation since Rome has been given the authority to put to death whomever, 100%. 25% is the current maximum until the new kingdom of Rome comes into being.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    When it comes time for Jesus to assume his kingdom and all the kingdom's of the world, his status will change from being a prince:

    *[[Rev 1:5]] KJV* And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the PRINCE of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    To becoming the king of kings. His first duties will be to remove the tares out of his kingdom, the kingdom that was promised to the seed of Abraham. But where is Jesus going to rule from? None other than from Jerusalem! When the king goes to war he sounds the trumpet. Rev 4:1...

    *[[Rev 4:1]] KJV* After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Besides standing, there is one, almost unnoticeable event in Rev 4 & 5, versus chapter 1.

    *[[Rev 1:4]] KJV* John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

    *[[Rev 5:6]] KJV* And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    The seven spirits have been sent forth into all of the earth. What are they doing in the earth? Nothing but gathering ALL of the house of Israel to Jerusalem. God is going to bring all of the house of Israel to Jerusalem for judgment. The result of which will be a scattering into all of the 4 winds:
    *[[Eze 5:4]] KJV* Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.
    *[[Eze 5:5]] KJV* Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her....

    *[[Eze 5:10]] KJV* Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds....
    *[[Eze 5:15]] KJV* So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it.
    The 7 spirits are the Holy Spirit sent out after Jesus' resurrection; bringing people to Jesus from all over the earth, from the 4 winds. When the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled, Israel will turn back to God. It seems as if you have mixed two separate ideas together.

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    God, after all this, will set about to gather the remnant, his elect from the 4 winds:

    *[[Mat 24:31]] KJV* And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Where will they be gathered to?
    THE WILDERNESS!

    *[[Eze 20:34]] KJV* And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
    *[[Eze 20:35]] KJV* And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

    Where is the wilderness located?
    SEVEN PLACES just outside of the promised land.

    *[[Isa 11:11]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

    Those 7 spirits, HIS SEVEN ANGELS, at the sounding of the trumpet, to gather the people, will go forth,
    First, to gather them to Jerusalem for judgment, THEN,
    from the 4 winds for redemption:

    *[[Mat 24:32]] KJV* Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    *[[Mat 24:33]] KJV* So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    Jesus included verse 31

    When he referred to all these things.
    Blessings to all who keeps the saying and the prophecy of his book!
    Again, 2 separate things. Matthew 24:31 in my opinion refers to the resurrection of the dead. The spirits of the dead who are in heaven will enter the bodies of the resurrected from all over the earth.


    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    P.S. When the trumpet of Rev 4 sounds to gather the house of Israel to Jerusalem, this should prove to all pre-tribbers, that they were wrong. But, my earnest prayer is, that before day 1290 arrives, when the 6th seal is opened, they will see the error of their ways. But i don't just pray for pre-tribbers.
    Blessings to all!
    To me, Rev 4 does not represent a gathering of the house of Israel to Jerusalem. It shows that the future could not be fully revealed until Jesus rose from the dead.

  8. #53
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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    This was the very verse I was just getting ready to respond with. You beat me to it!



    [Acts 17:30-31 also "because He has fixed [set/established] a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through [by/in] a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising [in having raised] Him out from the dead." (not a 24-hr day)]
    Has Jesus been standing since the time he took the scroll and showed it to John in the first century?

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    Has Jesus been standing since the time he took the scroll and showed it to John in the first century?
    No Jesus takes His seat at the Right hand of God the Father. Psalms 110:1 And He sends His fiery Judgment down to the earth at the Appointed Day. Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1

    The Sixth Seal
    Having established the fact that we are all prone to making mistakes and misinterpreting scriptures and as we all desire that the truth be made clear, I suggest that we look closely the critical issue of the Sixth Seal.
    Points to be considered:
    1/ Are the seals, trumpets and bowls a progression of events?
    2/ Have the first five seals been opened already?
    3/ Is the Sixth Seal actually the Lordís Day of vengeance and wrath?
    4/ Is there a literal explanation of the Sixth Seal?

    1/ All the commentaries that I have perused and most of the Bible scholars I have asked, agree on the chronological sequence of the seals, trumpets and bowls. It is only those with the agenda of the next event being a war and all the wrath of God is to be poured out at the Return, who place them out of the sequence as given.
    Also a preterist will say itís all past history or abrogated by Christís atonement.

    2/ Although some say that because the description of the four horsemen and how they have been released already, as we see in Zechariah 1:8-11 and Zechariah 6:1-8, do not exactly match that described in Revelation 6:1-8, then they are different events. However, I see this as just an attempt to maintain their beliefs, especially those who hold to a pre trib/wrath rapture. Plainly, they are allegories of things that we have and still do experience here on earth.
    The Fifth Seal is telling those saints that have been martyred, they must wait until their number is complete. Matthew 23:35 Jesus said:...from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah... This significant quote confirms that the first five seals were opened after the murder of Zechariah and their number will be completed by all who have been and will be killed from the time of Zechariah until the Return.

    3/ The Sixth Seal matches quite closely the many prophecies of the worldwide Lordís Day of vengeance and wrath, found throughout the OT and the NT. This event simply does not match the 3 clear descriptions of the Return of Jesus and what happens then. Zechariah 14:4-9, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21
    As for thinking that because it is the people who say; ĎFall on us, for the Day of wrath has comeí, then it isnít a true statement, this is totally unbelievable because they havenít said it yet and it is actually a prophecy of Jesus, as given to John.

    4/ Prophecy should be understood literally, unless there is an obvious allegory and then it is most often explained literally in other passages. With hindsight and modern scientific knowledge, it is now possible to know what will happen and right now the fulfilment of Psalm 83:1-8 and Micah 4:11-12 is staring us in the face.

    The sequence of judgements/ punishments as revealed by Jesus to John in Revelation, will occur as written and the next event will be the Sixth seal, the Great Day of the Lordís vengeance and wrath, the Day the Lord destroys His enemies. All the graphically described effects of a worldwide devastation will happen by the means He will use, a coronal mass ejection, Isaiah 30:26, which will literally fulfil all the prophecies.
    Be aware and be prepared, or remain Ďin the darkí, and be shocked and terrified when it does happen.

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    No Jesus takes His seat at the Right hand of God the Father. Psalms 110:1 And He sends His fiery Judgment down to the earth at the Appointed Day. Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1
    This causes more doubt regarding the standing/sitting theory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Sixth Seal
    Having established the fact that we are all prone to making mistakes and misinterpreting scriptures and as we all desire that the truth be made clear, I suggest that we look closely the critical issue of the Sixth Seal.
    Points to be considered:
    1/ Are the seals, trumpets and bowls a progression of events?
    2/ Have the first five seals been opened already?
    3/ Is the Sixth Seal actually the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath?
    4/ Is there a literal explanation of the Sixth Seal?

    1/ All the commentaries that I have perused and most of the Bible scholars I have asked, agree on the chronological sequence of the seals, trumpets and bowls. It is only those with the agenda of the next event being a war and all the wrath of God is to be poured out at the Return, who place them out of the sequence as given.
    Also a preterist will say it’s all past history or abrogated by Christ’s atonement.
    Although I don't agree with the chronological sequence of the seals, trumpets, and bowls, I don't have the agenda mentioned above and I am not a preterist. I have tried to put the events in a chronological sequence and they would not fit because of their many repetitions. The event of Revelation that is currently being fulfilled is that of the Messianic Jew in Israel found in Rev 7. I also believe that the first 4 trumpets have already been fulfilled.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    2/ Although some say that because the description of the four horsemen and how they have been released already, as we see in Zechariah 1:8-11 and Zechariah 6:1-8, do not exactly match that described in Revelation 6:1-8, then they are different events. However, I see this as just an attempt to maintain their beliefs, especially those who hold to a pre trib/wrath rapture. Plainly, they are allegories of things that we have and still do experience here on earth.
    The Fifth Seal is telling those saints that have been martyred, they must wait until their number is complete. Matthew 23:35 Jesus said:...from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah... This significant quote confirms that the first five seals were opened after the murder of Zechariah and their number will be completed by all who have been and will be killed from the time of Zechariah until the Return.
    We agree that these are martyrs, but would Stephen be in this number? He didn't want the sins of the people who put him to death to be found guilty of it. I am not sure if Christians who die during the great tribulation will be as forgiving. Compare the 5th seal group with the Hallelujah chorus of chapter 19. Rev 19:2. "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."


    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    3/ The Sixth Seal matches quite closely the many prophecies of the worldwide Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, found throughout the OT and the NT. This event simply does not match the 3 clear descriptions of the Return of Jesus and what happens then. Zechariah 14:4-9, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21
    As for thinking that because it is the people who say; ‘Fall on us, for the Day of wrath has come’, then it isn’t a true statement, this is totally unbelievable because they haven’t said it yet and it is actually a prophecy of Jesus, as given to John.
    To me, the 6th seal does match the 3 clear descriptions you listed.

    People will say "the great day of his wrath is come," when the mountains and islands have moved. They will state it when they see both the Father and the Son. They will state it after they have been gathered at Armageddon. The events of chapter 6 and those of chapter 16 repeat the same events. Do you believe that every mountain and island will be moved on 2 separate occasions?


    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    4/ Prophecy should be understood literally, unless there is an obvious allegory and then it is most often explained literally in other passages. With hindsight and modern scientific knowledge, it is now possible to know what will happen and right now the fulfilment of Psalm 83:1-8 and Micah 4:11-12 is staring us in the face.
    I agree with you on how prophecy should be understood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The sequence of judgements/ punishments as revealed by Jesus to John in Revelation, will occur as written and the next event will be the Sixth seal, the Great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the Day the Lord destroys His enemies. All the graphically described effects of a worldwide devastation will happen by the means He will use, a coronal mass ejection, Isaiah 30:26, which will literally fulfil all the prophecies.
    Be aware and be prepared, or remain ‘in the dark’, and be shocked and terrified when it does happen.
    I don't think it is wise to focus on a single next prophetic event. The religious leaders of the first century did not fit Jesus, as a man who would die, into their understanding of prophetic events.

    The fulfillment of Isaiah 30:26 may be found in Rev 16:8-9. "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory."

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    What is undeniable is the quote from Isaiah 61:1-2a, that Jesus fulfilled at His first Advent, is immediately followed by verse 2b; and a Day of vengeance of our Lord. Plainly the next prophesied event to happen.

    It is sensible to focus on the next event, which must be the Day of the Lord's wrath. A Day that is told to us in over 100 prophesies, in great detail, the Day that the Lord will acquire His blood stained garments, Isaiah 63:1-5, that He will eventually Return in. Rev 19:13

    You ask if I believe in 2 earthquakes. You obviously haven't really studied these two prophesies:
    At the Sixth Seal, it says the mountains and Islands will be moved from their place's. This describes tectonic plate shift. A worldwide tremendous shaking as Isaiah 13:13 and Hebrews 12:26 describe.
    At the Return, only Zechariah 14:4 mentions a earth movement, a localized split of the Mt of Olives.

    There is another earthquake: Revelation 11:13, again localized. No doubt there will be other earth movements, especially as God remakes the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 20:1-7

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What is undeniable is the quote from Isaiah 61:1-2a, that Jesus fulfilled at His first Advent, is immediately followed by verse 2b; and a Day of vengeance of our Lord. Plainly the next prophesied event to happen.
    In Isaiah, it is the next prophesied event to happen. However, more detailed events; like a period of great tribulation, occur before the period of wrath in other prophecies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It is sensible to focus on the next event, which must be the Day of the Lord's wrath. A Day that is told to us in over 100 prophesies, in great detail, the Day that the Lord will acquire His blood stained garments, Isaiah 63:1-5, that He will eventually Return in. Rev 19:13
    I just don't agree with this statement. When people start with an absolute next thing to happen, like the Day of the Lord or the rapture; prophecies are skewed to fit the absolute.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You ask if I believe in 2 earthquakes. You obviously haven't really studied these two prophesies:
    At the Sixth Seal, it says the mountains and Islands will be moved from their place's. This describes tectonic plate shift. A worldwide tremendous shaking as Isaiah 13:13 and Hebrews 12:26 describe.
    At the Return, only Zechariah 14:4 mentions a earth movement, a localized split of the Mt of Olives.
    The return of Jesus is found in both the 6th seal and the 7th vial. You have stated that Jesus will return with vengeance. Rev 15:1 says the 7 vials are the last of the plagues; "for in them is filled up the wrath of God." There will be no more wrath of God after the 7th vial. Rev 16:15 shows that Jesus will not return before 6 of the vials are poured out. Isn't this a good clue that he will come during the 7th and final vial? If he doesn't come then, when there is no more wrath to be poured out, how will the healing of Isaiah 61:3 and following take place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    There is another earthquake: Revelation 11:13, again localized. No doubt there will be other earth movements, especially as God remakes the earth after the Millennium. Revelation 20:1-7
    The earthquake of Revelation 11:13 is the same earthquake as found in Revelation 6:12. The rising from the dead of the 2 witnesses at the time of this earthquake bring the end of the 3.5 year period of great tribulation. The events of Matthew 24:29-30 correspond identically to the events of Revelation 6 that follow this earthquake. The events of Matthew 24:29-30 are the events that will occur immediately after the period of great tribulation.

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Jesus doesn't Return until His Second Advent, as described in Revelation 19:11-21.
    The many mentions of His 'coming' are not in a visible mode, as several prophesies make clear. Amos 1, where it states several times how the Lord will send fire. and Psalms 11:4-6, how He is in heaven sending firey coals upon the wicked.

    I choose not to shuffle the given sequence in Revelation of the 7 Seals, which obviously must be removed before the scroll can be unrolled, then the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
    It is also quite logical and necessary that the end times events will commence with some kind of dramatic happening. The nations won't accede to a One World Gove without being forced to by a worldwide catastrophe, such as is well prophesied for the Lord's Day of wrath.

    If you don't like this idea, then just continue on in the hope that many have of a rapture removal, or just think to carry on much as we are until the glorious Day Jesus comes back, but this means you have ignored and discounted a large portion of the Bible and this may cause serious difficulty later. Also remember that we will all stand before Jesus in Judgement. He may ask: Why did you not take heed of what I and My prophets told you?

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Jesus doesn't Return until His Second Advent, as described in Revelation 19:11-21.
    The many mentions of His 'coming' are not in a visible mode, as several prophesies make clear. Amos 1, where it states several times how the Lord will send fire. and Psalms 11:4-6, how He is in heaven sending firey coals upon the wicked.
    I believe the many mentions of His 'coming' are in a visible mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I choose not to shuffle the given sequence in Revelation of the 7 Seals, which obviously must be removed before the scroll can be unrolled, then the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
    It is also quite logical and necessary that the end times events will commence with some kind of dramatic happening. The nations won't accede to a One World Gove without being forced to by a worldwide catastrophe, such as is well prophesied for the Lord's Day of wrath.
    If the Lord's Day of wrath causes the One World Government, I will concede to your point of view. It seems as though we agree that the One World Government will precede the Lord's visible 'coming.'

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    If you don't like this idea, then just continue on in the hope that many have of a rapture removal, or just think to carry on much as we are until the glorious Day Jesus comes back, but this means you have ignored and discounted a large portion of the Bible and this may cause serious difficulty later. Also remember that we will all stand before Jesus in Judgement. He may ask: Why did you not take heed of what I and My prophets told you?
    I believe all of the events in the Bible will occur as prophesied!

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    Re: The Description of the Sixth Seal Contains Previews of the Future

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I believe the many mentions of His 'coming' are in a visible mode.
    Another example of someone making an assertion without fully ascertaining the facts.
    Psalms 18:11 He makes darkness His covering, dense vapor His canopy.
    Psalm 89:46 How long O Lord will You hide yourself, how long will Your wrath blaze like fire?
    Habakkuk 3:4 His Brightness is like the dawn, light flashes from His hand and thereby His might is veiled.

    When it is understood what it is that the Lord will use on His Day of wrath, then it is known why He will not be seen. Remember at the first reset of civilization, in Noah's day, God used water and He was not seen then, but this time over 70 prophesies tell us He will use fire.

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