Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst 1234567891011 LastLast
Results 136 to 150 of 163

Thread: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

  1. #136
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,060

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree that having a genealogy is NOT the same as there being land boundaries. You are the one claiming it is about land boundaries when that is NOT mentioned. I am saying this is about genealogy, which IS mentioned.
    So everything matches with genealogy and so to claim it is about land boundaries, which you yourself note wasn't in effect, and which John would know as well as anyone the truth of this, shows you are going down the wrong path.
    That there were no tribal land boundaries in Jesus' time, is easily explained: Only the House of Judah were there.
    Some from the Northern Tribes had joined Judah, as did some Gentiles. Luke was most likely a Gentile from Antioch. But the bulk of the House of Israel; the Northern kingdom, was still in exile and remains so today. The Apostles took the Gospel to them; Josephus knew where they were and they were a great multitude.

    What was the result of their evangelizing? The Christianization of the Western nations.
    Isn't God's Plan amazing? He knew where His people were and still are, Amos 9:9, and His Plan now, is that they should all go back to the Land, all the faithful Christians from every tribe, [of Israel] race, nation and language. [all true believers are included] We Christians are the sons of the Living God, called from among Jews and Gentiles alike and in the very place where the House of Israel was sent into exile as not My people, they shall be called My people. Romans 9:24-26

    The Land divisions as described in Ezekiel 47 and 48 were never properly observed. Especially Ezekiel 48:9-13; the Temple area. They will be.
    If people like to deny these prophesies, then where does that kind of thinking end?

  2. #137

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually I did explain before and you didn't say where my explanation was wrong.

    Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
    Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
    Rev 7:5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
    Rev 7:6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
    Rev 7:7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
    Rev 7:8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

    We are given the break down of the tribes which are sealed, and Dan is NOT included. Therefore the meaning is NOT meaning LAND Boundaries, because Dan is apportioned Land as a tribe of Israel.
    You latch onto the word ALL as if it exists in isolation of what is stated.
    The meaning is that ALL those who are sealed ARE from a tribe of the sons of Israel. IOW it is NOT speaking about Gentiles. ALL are from the tribes of Israel. Every single one.
    We KNOW your understanding of the meaning is the wrong one BECAUSE the tribe of Dan is NOT included.
    So either the claim of what ALL by John meant is wrong, or YOUR understanding of how the word ALL is used is wrong.
    I personally go with "YOUR understanding of how the word All is used is wrong".
    I think John was right.
    This is another one we will not agree on. This is *not* saying *all* of these tribes had to be from Israel, and not from the Gentiles. No, it is saying that this group of 12 tribes contains *all* of the tribes. That is, Dan must be included in one or two of the other tribes. In fact, this happened with Dan historically. Dan migrated to the far north, even though his tribal allotment was in the extreme south. Sometimes tribal areas changed in their tribal constitution. Eventually, Judah came to encompass Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, to some degree. Ephraim could be called either Joseph or Ephraim.

    But the main point is that tribal boundaries long, long before John the Revelator had ceased to become important in Israel. Genealogies remained important in some ways, but certainly not in terms of maintaining tribal distinctions.

    So if we are to view things this way, there will be no recovery of the old tribal boundaries and distinctions. It is the people descended from all 12 tribes who will be represented in the future land of Canaan. They will equally share the land, which is what seems to be the issue. There will be no more partitions, since they will all have equal shares, or rights, in the land. In other words, there is more significance in the equality of the number 12,000 than in what particular piece of land they will own. Since they are all homogeneously distributed throughout the Jewish People any particular group may possess any particular piece of land!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    I agree that having a genealogy is NOT the same as there being land boundaries. You are the one claiming it is about land boundaries when that is NOT mentioned. I am saying this is about genealogy, which IS mentioned.
    So everything matches with genealogy and so to claim it is about land boundaries, which you yourself note wasn't in effect, and which John would know as well as anyone the truth of this, shows you are going down the wrong path.
    If this is more about genealogy than about land boundaries we're in agreement.

  3. #138
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,060

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Isaiah 56:1-2 These are the words of the Lord; Maintain justice and do what is right, for My deliverance is close at hand and My victory will soon be revealed. Happy is the person who follows these precepts and holds fast to them, who keeps the Sabbaths unprofained and his hand from all wrongdoing.

    Isaiah 56:3-5 The foreigner who has given his allegiance to the Lord must not say; The Lord will exclude me from His people. The eunuch must not say: I am naught but a barren tree. The eunuch’s who keep My Sabbaths and choose to do My will, holding fast to the covenant, will receive from Me something better than children – a memorial and a name within My Temple. I shall give them everlasting renown.

    Isaiah 56:6-7 So too, with the foreigners who give their allegiance to Me, to minister to Me and love My name and become My servants. All who keep My Sabbaths holy and hold fast to My covenant; these I shall bring to My holy Mountain and give them joy in My House of prayer. Their offerings and sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar, for My House will be called a House of prayer for all nations.

    Isaiah 56:8 This is the word of the Lord, who gathers those driven out of Israel;
    I shall add to those who have already been gathered
    . John 10:16

    This Bible passage, written by the prophet Isaiah, gives a wonderful promise to every person – regardless of race, colour or gender. The promise of the Lord, to give them;
    “Joy in My House of prayer”
    In verse 8, it shows that this will happen after all the faithful Christians, [the real Israelites of God] have gathered into the Land. Ezekiel 20:34-35, Jeremiah 30:10 They will be divided into 12 groups, into the 12 ‘tribes’ of Israel.
    Also as in verse 7, the Temple will be built by them.

    Isaiah 66:18-21...I am coming to gather peoples of every tongue. They will come to see My glory. I shall put a sign on them and will send them to preach the Gospel to all the peoples that have not heard of Me. The 144,000 Revelation 7:3-8 & 14:1-7
    From every nation and by every means, My righteous people will come to My Holy mountain, Jerusalem, just as in ancient days, the Israelites brought their offerings to Me. Some of them, I shall take to be priests and Temple Levites. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:5

    Some of these; are the 144,000 as mentioned in Revelation. This all must occur before the Return of Jesus. Before that, …He reveals His glory among His own… Revelation 14:1, 2 Thess. 1:10
    Reference: REB some verses abridged.

  4. #139
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    7,727
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is another one we will not agree on. This is *not* saying *all* of these tribes had to be from Israel, and not from the Gentiles. No, it is saying that this group of 12 tribes contains *all* of the tribes. That is, Dan must be included in one or two of the other tribes. In fact, this happened with Dan historically. Dan migrated to the far north, even though his tribal allotment was in the extreme south. Sometimes tribal areas changed in their tribal constitution. Eventually, Judah came to encompass Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, to some degree. Ephraim could be called either Joseph or Ephraim.
    Now that is an interesting tack to take.
    That Dan is somehow included within another.
    The tribe of Judah NEVER encompassed Benjamin however, nor Levi.
    However the land ruled by the House of Judah did.
    IOW genealogically speaking they remain separate. Land boundaries are also separate, however there is a greater kingdom which goes under the name of Judah to which Benjamin is part.
    Further according to Joshua, Simeon was entirely within Judah, yet this tribe is mentioned separately.

    When we look at the land boundaries however we find that Ezekiel doesn't agree with your claim of Dan being in the South:
    Ezekiel 48:1 These are the names of the tribes: Beginning at the northern extreme, beside the way of Hethlon to Lebo-hamath, as far as Hazar-enan (which is on the northern border of Damascus over against Hamath), and extending from the east side to the west, Dan, one portion.

    So Dan is stated as being in the Northernmost part prophetically, and also separately. So IF Rev 7 is land boundaries, then Dan MUST be mentioned.

    It does NOT say that these 12 listed CONTAIN all of the tribes.
    There is NOTHING whereby Dan is contained within any of the other tribes.

    But the main point is that tribal boundaries long, long before John the Revelator had ceased to become important in Israel. Genealogies remained important in some ways, but certainly not in terms of maintaining tribal distinctions.
    Really, and you base this upon what? What scripture? What historical document? Ezekiel 48 tells a different story - this was written AFTER everyone was in exile. After there had been two kingdoms for 300 years.

    So if we are to view things this way, there will be no recovery of the old tribal boundaries and distinctions. It is the people descended from all 12 tribes who will be represented in the future land of Canaan. They will equally share the land, which is what seems to be the issue. There will be no more partitions, since they will all have equal shares, or rights, in the land. In other words, there is more significance in the equality of the number 12,000 than in what particular piece of land they will own. Since they are all homogeneously distributed throughout the Jewish People any particular group may possess any particular piece of land!
    The question is WHY should we view things this way, when Ezekiel didn't 500 years AFTER the kingdom had come and then split and then exiled on (at least) two occasions.
    Further WHY should we think it has anything to do with Land Boundaries in the first place.
    You keep saying it does, but NOTHING in the passage says it is and NOTHING supporting it does.

    If this is more about genealogy than about land boundaries we're in agreement.
    It is about people who are descended from Israel who are called by God and set aside, sealed by Him and ready then for His work.

  5. #140

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Now that is an interesting tack to take.
    That Dan is somehow included within another.
    The tribe of Judah NEVER encompassed Benjamin however, nor Levi.
    However the land ruled by the House of Judah did.
    The *Kingdom* of Judah encompassed Benjamin and Levi! I didn't mean to say the *tribe* of Judah did this, since my claim is that the tribal boundaries ceased with the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel!

    So I'm saying that the boundaries came to encompass people from several tribes, and not just a single tribe.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    IOW genealogically speaking they remain separate. Land boundaries are also separate, however there is a greater kingdom which goes under the name of Judah to which Benjamin is part.
    Further according to Joshua, Simeon was entirely within Judah, yet this tribe is mentioned separately.

    When we look at the land boundaries however we find that Ezekiel doesn't agree with your claim of Dan being in the South:
    Ezekiel 48:1 These are the names of the tribes: Beginning at the northern extreme, beside the way of Hethlon to Lebo-hamath, as far as Hazar-enan (which is on the northern border of Damascus over against Hamath), and extending from the east side to the west, Dan, one portion.

    So Dan is stated as being in the Northernmost part prophetically, and also separately. So IF Rev 7 is land boundaries, then Dan MUST be mentioned.
    As I said, Dan split up between southern inheritance and northern possession. Ezekiel's vision just relays things in the last known position of Dan's ultimate placement. Ezekiel was speaking to the people of his day about future things. The future realities are known by very different designations, even if they refer to the same realities. Again, all the tribes inherit through the singular "Jewish People." They all have equal inheritance of all the tribes.

    I'll give you this much. It's possible that there will be a future land area in the north called "Dan." But it certainly cannot have a people designated as "Danite" by DNA tracing. They would have to be any particular group of Jews who inhabit that area, who with all other Jews have Danite DNA in them!

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    It does NOT say that these 12 listed CONTAIN all of the tribes.
    There is NOTHING whereby Dan is contained within any of the other tribes.
    1) It does indeed say "all the tribes."
    2) Those tribal entities do not exist any longer, except as the more homogeneous "Jewish People."
    Conclusion: the Jewish People have all of the original 12 tribal peoples, no matter what tribal designations are given to any particular land territory.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Really, and you base this upon what? What scripture? What historical document? Ezekiel 48 tells a different story - this was written AFTER everyone was in exile. After there had been two kingdoms for 300 years.
    This is common sense. Once tribal boundaries ceased with the advent of the Israeli Kingdom all you would have are people who could trace their ancestry to these 12 original tribes. They were remembrances, to whom God still promised a *nation.* God did not promise tribal divisions forever. He promised a singular inheritance of a *nation* forever. The inclusion of all 12 tribes simply meant that all Jewish families would be guaranteed an inheritance in this nation, and that all of the original land territories would be returned to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The question is WHY should we view things this way, when Ezekiel didn't 500 years AFTER the kingdom had come and then split and then exiled on (at least) two occasions.
    Further WHY should we think it has anything to do with Land Boundaries in the first place.
    You keep saying it does, but NOTHING in the passage says it is and NOTHING supporting it does.
    No, I'm not arguing land boundaries, and haven't been. I've been arguing against any idea of tribal DNA in 12 different groups. So this has to do with land, yes, but not with 12 tribal allotments of land. This is a singular allotment of land for people descended from the original 12 tribes. The 12 tribal designations simply represent the people descended from these 12 original tribes. And they at the same time represent the total land mass promised to the whole nation--not just to Judah, nor to the N. Kingdom of Israel, but to *all* Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    It is about people who are descended from Israel who are called by God and set aside, sealed by Him and ready then for His work.

  6. #141
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    7,727
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    We can agree to a certain extent that these 144k are representative for ALL Israel. However the fact that the 144k are split into 12 groups should highlight that something more is involved.

    As to your DNA argument, we all have the DNA of Adam and Eve.
    These tribes may well be so mixed that we find the DNA of all 12 tribes in each person.
    However we need to get with how God counts people, and not how modern science does.
    What would John have understood from this as well as the churches who read it?
    Clearly though Jerusalem was destroyed, yet God has plans for the people of Israel.

  7. #142

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    We can agree to a certain extent that these 144k are representative for ALL Israel. However the fact that the 144k are split into 12 groups should highlight that something more is involved.

    As to your DNA argument, we all have the DNA of Adam and Eve.
    These tribes may well be so mixed that we find the DNA of all 12 tribes in each person.
    However we need to get with how God counts people, and not how modern science does.
    What would John have understood from this as well as the churches who read it?
    Clearly though Jerusalem was destroyed, yet God has plans for the people of Israel.
    In my view Israel has two important elements. It traces its ethnic heritage back to the 12 tribes. And it traces its DNA back to all 12 tribes. This means Israel today is the same people and culture.

    This is essential for the fulfillment of the promises, because all 12 tribes had to be ultimately represented in the nation of Israel. And the entire land mass of all 12 tribes had to be included in the ultimate inheritance of Israel.

    Yes, every Jew probably has DNA from all 12 tribes. That is what I mean by the "homogenized Jew!" Each Jew represents the fulfillment of the promise God made to all 12 tribes, both in DNA and in land inheritance.

  8. #143
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,060

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    In the New Testament it is Christians only and never ethnic Jews, who are revealed as God's chosen people and God's holy nation. A few thousand Jews did become Christians then and some are now. But for the rest, Jesus cursed the fig tree and called them members of the synagogue of Satan.
    1 Peter 2:1-lO...They that are with Him [Christ] are called and chosen. [Revelation 17:14; Ephesians 1:4] Peter was writing to Christians: new born babes, lively stones, to a spiritual people, who are the holy priesthood, elect and precious.
    The Lord Jesus has become the chief cornerstone of all these new and living stones. He is building only ONE spiritual nation, ONE spiritual temple!
    Mathew 21:42. This is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.
    Luke 3:8.Truly, God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    To be an Israelite of the promised seed, one must now be bringing forth good fruit of the spirit from "good ground" and not of the flesh, either in 30, 60, or up to 100 fold in God's spiritual measure - Mat.l3:23. Because the religious system of Israel rejected Christ as the chief cornerstone and bearer of good fruit, Jesus said to the Jews: The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [as a natural literal nation], and given to [newly incorporated Christian] a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matthew 21:43
    There is only one Way all must come - John 14:6 That way is not through natural lineage and inheritance but through the acceptance of God's grace found in, Jesus Christ the Lord.

    There is only one new Covenant and God makes that Covenant only with true believers.
    Who is now and shall yet be a part of the new people of God? The natural Jews?
    Yes, but only as individuals, as Christian Israelites in a totally new and different nation: citizens of a new city, a new government. They must come through Christ in the same manner as any nationality before they can become new citizens of this new nation in all that area promised to Abraham and his descendants by faith. Heb.11:10-16

    Natural Israel did not obtain that which they sought, but the chosen [and faithful] people have attained it. Romans 11:7, Romans 8:29-30

  9. #144

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    In the New Testament it is Christians only and never ethnic Jews, who are revealed as God's chosen people and God's holy nation. A few thousand Jews did become Christians then and some are now. But for the rest, Jesus cursed the fig tree and called them members of the synagogue of Satan.
    1 Peter 2:1-lO...They that are with Him [Christ] are called and chosen. [Revelation 17:14; Ephesians 1:4] Peter was writing to Christians: new born babes, lively stones, to a spiritual people, who are the holy priesthood, elect and precious.
    The Lord Jesus has become the chief cornerstone of all these new and living stones. He is building only ONE spiritual nation, ONE spiritual temple!
    Mathew 21:42. This is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.
    Luke 3:8.Truly, God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    I agree with you that there is only one "chosen nation" today, in the metaphorical sense. And that is the Christian nation. No ethnic group gets into heaven--only those within each ethnic group who truly convert to Christ. If you will, this is the only chosen Christian "nation."

    But as I've said before, I believe it's important that entire nations and governments convert to Christianity--not just small remnants. If God cannot get a whole nation, He will be content with a remnant. But my understanding is that God prefers entire nations. Otherwise, He would not be interested in Law and Justice, in social responsibility.

    How good is it to God, for example, if there are a few scattered Christians around the countryside, and the laws of society permit all kinds of brutality and immorality? This subjects the few righteous individuals to brutal treatment--something which God will never condone!

    Neither can I say that any ethnic group, including the Jews, are bad simply because they have not yet accepted Christianity. They may indeed become Christian through the process of evangelization and judgment. Some nations have been converted by evangelization. Some, like Israel, will have to go through serious judgment, in order to bring the whole nation around to Christian conversion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    To be an Israelite of the promised seed, one must now be bringing forth good fruit of the spirit from "good ground" and not of the flesh, either in 30, 60, or up to 100 fold in God's spiritual measure - Mat.l3:23. Because the religious system of Israel rejected Christ as the chief cornerstone and bearer of good fruit, Jesus said to the Jews: The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [as a natural literal nation], and given to [newly incorporated Christian] a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matthew 21:43
    There is only one Way all must come - John 14:6 That way is not through natural lineage and inheritance but through the acceptance of God's grace found in, Jesus Christ the Lord.
    Yes, but I don't believe we can make the assumption that Israel as the once "Chosen People" are now evil because they have not converted, as a nation, to Christianity! Wicked people and wicked leaders have taken over their society, and conversion to Christianity will now require serious judgment, I believe.

    But to call them "evil" for this past choice against Christianity is wrong-headed. This was a distant generation that did this, and ignorant people reject Christianity today--a Christianity they have been taught is evil and prejudiced against them.

    It is true that *some of them,* perhaps even *many of them,* are evil and still reject Christianity, knowing what they do. But still, I believe many that follow them in ignorance can be brought back, following divine judgment against these evil Jews.

    We only hinder the process by grouping them all together as the "synagogue of Satan." I don't believe that at all! The "synagogue of Satan" were a group of Jews in the Early Church who particularly hated and persecuted Christians. And this was at a time of terrible spiritual decline among the Jews. Today, the Jews are, I feel, much more diverse, and not "evil" as a people. I think many of them are, in fact, very good!

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz
    There is only one new Covenant and God makes that Covenant only with true believers.
    Who is now and shall yet be a part of the new people of God? The natural Jews?
    Yes, but only as individuals, as Christian Israelites in a totally new and different nation: citizens of a new city, a new government. They must come through Christ in the same manner as any nationality before they can become new citizens of this new nation in all that area promised to Abraham and his descendants by faith. Heb.11:10-16

    Natural Israel did not obtain that which they sought, but the chosen [and faithful] people have attained it. Romans 11:7, Romans 8:29-30

  10. #145
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,060

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    Yes, but I don't believe we can make the assumption that Israel as the once "Chosen People" are now evil because they have not converted, as a nation, to Christianity! Wicked people and wicked leaders have taken over their society, and conversion to Christianity will now require serious judgment, I believe.

    But to call them "evil" for this past choice against Christianity is wrong-headed. This was a distant generation that did this, and ignorant people reject Christianity today--a Christianity they have been taught is evil and prejudiced against them.

    It is true that *some of them,* perhaps even *many of them,* are evil and still reject Christianity, knowing what they do. But still, I believe many that follow them in ignorance can be brought back, following divine judgment against these evil Jews.

    We only hinder the process by grouping them all together as the "synagogue of Satan." I don't believe that at all! The "synagogue of Satan" were a group of Jews in the Early Church who particularly hated and persecuted Christians. And this was at a time of terrible spiritual decline among the Jews. Today, the Jews are, I feel, much more diverse, and not "evil" as a people. I think many of them are, in fact, very good!
    Your beliefs conflict with what the Bible teaches.
    Firstly; only those who accept Jesus now, will be saved.

    Re the Jewish people; their choice to reject Jesus, has continued virtually unchanged throughout the age. Today barely 1% of Jews are Christians. Being 'good' just doesn't cut it!
    There is plenty of Prophecy that tell us about the fate of the House of Judah and that only a remnant of them will be saved. Isaiah 29:1-4, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Romans 9:27

    People like you that show a great Christian spirit, in desiring redemption for the Jews; and for all peoples, are to be commended for that. But does comply with God's Plan?
    No, and the Words of Jesus are against those who say they are Jews, but are not; they are of the synagogue of Satan. and how they cursed themselves and their children, Matthew 27:25, then how; Jesus will sit on His Throne and see to the slaughter of those who do not want Him for their King. Luke 19:27

    People cite Zechariah 13 in their desperation for a Jewish redemption. As that chapter shows that 2/3 will be killed and of the remaining third, the dross will be removed and just a remnant saved. As we are told it will be in all the Prophetic Word.

  11. #146
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    105

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    I heard on the radio today that there are about 15,000 Messianic Jews aka Jewish Christians now living in Israel. We are getting closer to that 144,000 total!

  12. #147

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I heard on the radio today that there are about 15,000 Messianic Jews aka Jewish Christians now living in Israel. We are getting closer to that 144,000 total!
    They are absolutely there! I saw a friend of mine "make aliyah" decades ago. At that time he did not find it wise to speak much about Jesus at all. I really didn't like that, but those are the facts. I actually went over to Israel in 1976 and saw advertised a showing, in English, of "The Cross and the Switchblade."

    Christianity has long been in the Holy Land, for better or for worse. But the Messianic Jewish movement seems like it's a modern movement *among the Jews* that is here to stay. How it fits in with Rev 7 and the 144,000 I don't know? But they certainly fit in with what Paul referred to as "the remnant" of believers in Israel! Romans 11.5.

  13. #148
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,060

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by 6paths View Post
    I heard on the radio today that there are about 15,000 Messianic Jews aka Jewish Christians now living in Israel. We are getting closer to that 144,000 total!
    As Judah, the Jewish people are just 2/12ths of the whole House of Israel, they need 24,000.
    But the criteria for them is very specific; male and undefiled with women. Revelation 14:4

    Of course there are as many Jewish people living outside of Israel as there are in. Probably more. So 15,000 doubled is 30,000 Jewish Christians.
    What's your guess for how many of that 30,000 would qualify?
    Then; the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes, now the Western Christian peoples, have to find 120,000. I do see that as possible, as I know there are many godly young men in our Church's.

    We are told what it is they will do, Isaiah 66:19 I shall put My sign on [some of] them, I shall send them out to the nations. They will declare My glory. [the Good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus] The forerunner for this mass evangelizing is Luke 10:1-10

  14. #149

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    As Judah, the Jewish people are just 2/12ths of the whole House of Israel, they need 24,000.
    But the criteria for them is very specific; male and undefiled with women. Revelation 14:4

    Of course there are as many Jewish people living outside of Israel as there are in. Probably more. So 15,000 doubled is 30,000 Jewish Christians.
    What's your guess for how many of that 30,000 would qualify?
    Then; the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes, now the Western Christian peoples, have to find 120,000. I do see that as possible, as I know there are many godly young men in our Church's.

    We are told what it is they will do, Isaiah 66:19 I shall put My sign on [some of] them, I shall send them out to the nations. They will declare My glory. [the Good news of the coming Kingdom of Jesus] The forerunner for this mass evangelizing is Luke 10:1-10
    There may be about 6 million Jews in Israel, and 10 million Jews in the U.S. That doesn't mean that this same proportion holds for evangelical Jews in Israel and the U.S. Since Israel is a *Jewish nation,* you would expect there to be less evangelicals there than in the U.S., which has lots of evangelicals, and at least used to be a Christian nation.

    Even if there are currently about 15,000 MJs in Israel, I would expect there to be lots more in the U.S. My source from 2007 indicates there were about 10,000-20,000 MJs in Israel, and from 175,000-250,000 in the U.S. This is about 10 times as many in the U.S. as there are in Israel!

    There are perhaps 100 MJ churches in Israel, and 438 in the U.S. This is about 8 churches per tribe in Israel, and 9 churches per state in the U.S. But the population of both Israel and the U.S. exceeds the 144,000 number!

    As far as the world-wide population of MJs the estimates are 350,000.
    That more than doubles the 144,000 number, if you want to take it literally!

  15. #150
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,060

    Re: Are the 144,000 literally "virgins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There may be about 6 million Jews in Israel, and 10 million Jews in the U.S. That doesn't mean that this same proportion holds for evangelical Jews in Israel and the U.S. Since Israel is a *Jewish nation,* you would expect there to be less evangelicals there than in the U.S., which has lots of evangelicals, and at least used to be a Christian nation.

    Even if there are currently about 15,000 MJs in Israel, I would expect there to be lots more in the U.S. My source from 2007 indicates there were about 10,000-20,000 MJs in Israel, and from 175,000-250,000 in the U.S. This is about 10 times as many in the U.S. as there are in Israel!

    There are perhaps 100 MJ churches in Israel, and 438 in the U.S. This is about 8 churches per tribe in Israel, and 9 churches per state in the U.S. But the population of both Israel and the U.S. exceeds the 144,000 number!

    As far as the world-wide population of MJs the estimates are 350,000.
    That more than doubles the 144,000 number, if you want to take it literally!
    Thanks for your good statistics, Randyk. Ballpark; but probably not too far off being correct.
    However, as I point out they must find at least 24,000 virgin males and that means men past the age of puberty. One in every 15 people. May just be possible?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 138
    Last Post: Jun 13th 2015, 08:55 PM
  2. Replies: 68
    Last Post: Sep 6th 2013, 05:22 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •